I'm talking feel on singletrack. Which steel hardtail frame has given you the most compliant feeling? I'm imagining, for example, the Soul over the P7, with its 853 front triangle and skinny tubed rear, as opposed to the P7's extra - perhaps OTT - tubing.
Surely ride feel will be determined by a whole host of bike/rider variables, making direct comparison difficult?
But for what it's worth, Sanderson Soloist with ****-off big rear tyre for me...
The nicest riding hard tail I’ve owned was a 725 tubed De Kerf Generation. It was pre -CEN regulations, so that probably makes a difference. That said, I’d like to try the new 725 Ribble mountain bike.
My old 1996 Team Marin made with quad-butted, heat-treated Fuji cro-mo was the most compliant and classically steel feeling.
Would probably feel like a soggy noodle and handle like a kids' bike compared to my current SolarisMax though.
Nicest I ever had was an Independent Fabrication Steel Deluxe
No springy or twangy like the DeKerf or Spot that I rode. Instead it was silky smooth and flowy.
Shouldn't have got ride of that one 🙁
I sold it because it was built around 80mm forks which seemed limiting by the time I'd had it 10 years in 2012, but I should have kept it anyway.
Mk1 Longitude (rigid ss 29+) and the Slackline 853 (carbon rigid ss B+)
‘89 splatter paint Explosif (Tange Prestige tubeset) with Tange Switchblades forks, it zinged, it buzzed, it skipped... 30 years ago now...
My Pipedream Skookum rides like a 90s steel HT comfort wise. This is a good thing.
My Genesis Fortitudes are sublime to ride.
Best thoroughly modern frame that was comfortable ..... Santa Cruz Chameleon but that’s the wrong sort of Alloy I guess 😉
Hiya,
Bit of a steel fan. It started with a tange Marin Eldridge grade. It was sort of ok but actually too stiff. Roll forward the frame died when a seat post well and truly welded itself into the down tube. The replacement was a rock lobster Reynolds 853, love it still do I ride it every month and the give in the frame is just perfect. I purchased later on I purchased a cotic soul, it was better geometry wise, but the frame doesn't give as much. It's still great but perfect in other ways.
A few years ago I got a back injury, which means I need to ride a full suspension bike more. The first was a Boardman fs pro, it's a great bike absolute pig to get it working right, but the frame is too stiff to be honest. Onto the latest addition. A new cotic flaremax. This is the closest to perfection in all the bikes I have owned an tested.
Now onto a major gripe. Why do people keep saying they need stiffer bikes? I'm an engineer stiff is not good! Flex in the right places is what you want. When I hear a bike journo say it's stiffer so much better I know they are talking carp 😉
BR
JeZ
Niner SIR.9.
Case closed.
(Or Niner MCR if you can find one).
I’ve got a 1994 Kona lava dome double butted compliant as ****!! What you seek is all smoke and mirrors 🙂
First model Singular Swift.
Its fork was lovely and felt much nicer than the carbon fork I replaced it with for lightness (temporarily).
My opinion is much of the feel of a steel bike comes down to its fork.
Epicyclo: ‘its fork’
Yes, me too.
Best for me was a ‘92 eldridge grade.
Had a Columbus life frame from enigma that rode well
Best for a compliant rear was a Cove Hand job.
Best for rip snorting geometry was my Evil Sovereign.
Best hardtail I've ever ridden for a combination of feel and geometry is my current Sonder Transmitter with a 2.6 rear tyre with insert inflated to 17psi.
Geometry is king, tyre pressure is key and frame material and built in feel come in 3rd on a modern HT.
All imho.
Jez, I agree.
My Stanton Sherpa (latest gen) is up there, particularly with fast tyres on. It is so much fun and makes you want to accelerate into everything. Grintastic.
Have fond memories on my Cotic Souk (mkII) until the chainstay cracked. The geared Inbred had days where I just grinned too 🙂
Sanderson Life was nice but ripped the mech hanger too many times to really feel that I could trust. it. Sanderson Soloist never really felt that fast - unlike my ss Inbred. Definitely not the Pipedream Scion which felt dead (and was a straight swap of all the kit from the Soul.
I need a beer or two to really get into this discussion though 🙂
Now onto a major gripe. Why do people keep saying they need stiffer bikes? I’m an engineer stiff is not good! Flex in the right places is what you want. When I hear a bike journo say it’s stiffer so much better I know they are talking carp
Agreed. Stiffer can feel more responsive but that's not the most important thing every time, more for road race bikes. It's easier for a brand to maximise stiffness and sell this as a benefit or as an absolute aim, than to 'optimise' stiffness for a rider since the right amount of flex is subjective. It changes for a rider over time also imo. I used to like stiffer bikes than I do now, eg I'm becoming much more appreciative of flex in a frame that I don't push as hard or load up as much. it's a feeling of riding with the bike, that the flex can work with you in the same way that using your weight to preload suspension can. But what works for my taste in my size of frame might be different for a stronger, heavier, weaker rider etc of the same height, and that's the bit that a production frame can't really account for.
Not an MTB but I'm really enjoying a Colnago steel road bike at the moment. Stiff enough but flexes under power or through corners in a way that feels as if it works with me. I don't think people always work well with totally rigid bikes, depends on the rider and the feedback we prefer. We don't apply loads in a square-wave piston-like way - some will be closer to that than others though.
My Salsa El Mariachi had a better 'feel' than the Soul/Solaris that preceded it and the Sherpa that followed. Not to say it's a better bike... the Sherpa's versatility probably nudges it ahead, but on the right day, in the right mood, on the right trail, the Salsa was a joy
I'm not really convinced on the "steel feel" thing based on my own experience.
The stiffest frame I've ever owned, in both good and bad ways is a Willier steel gravel frame. In contrast, a 10 year Merida alloy frame I have set up with the same kit is a joy. It's very well designed with the shapes stays.
I think I've had 6 steel frames bikes now. If I buy another it'll be because it's got the right design features rather than any mythical ride feel.
@jameso wise words, think "Nicest" is very subjective. One persons steel is real is another persons noodly and also very dependent on rider weight and type of riding / terrain.
For me. 90kgs and mostly SE XC two modern bikes that really stand out now are my Stanton Sherpa and Fairlight Secan, both have that springy feel but dont feel noodly. The Sherpa stands out over the Solaris, El Mariachi, Sir9, Swift, Rooster, Inbred, Fargo and Jones Plus that preceded it.
I’m not really convinced on the “steel feel” thing based on my own experience.
The stiffest frame I’ve ever owned, in both good and bad ways is a Willier steel gravel frame. In contrast, a 10 year Merida alloy frame I have set up with the same kit is a joy. It’s very well designed with the shapes stays.
That's the tube sections combined with the material. Steel can make a more flexible bike with sufficient durability but doesn't always, particularly now vs 15-30 years ago where these reputations or materials generalisations came from.
I've been enjoying riding my Stanton Slackline Next Gen since it's launch ,which is now over 3 years ago .Bike feels great to me but I've got nowt to compare it too though unless my Raleigh Burner counts .
back in the 90's i owned a bontrager privateer, which was a very nice bike to ride, i replaced it with a 853 rock lobster. sublime comfort even on trails that were too much for it.
the nicest modern steel bike was a swift 29er, again just a perfectly comfy nice bike to ride.
god knows why i sold it.
Not ridden anything that rivals the smooth feel of my Production Privee Oka.
It's got ovalised seat and chainstays, which I know you're not allowed to think make a difference but, all I know is it's a really smooth bike.
I wouldn't own an ally hardtail ever now I don't think.
I've had a few corkers over the years, Vicious Cycles Metal Guru, YoEddy, Ritchey team comp, Salsa alacarte. At the budget end a Muddy Fox Courier Prestige and a Kona unit rode really nicely.
Nobody mentioned Pace yet?
My RC127 Boost is spot on, 140mm Sektors and 2.25 tyres (which seem much bigger).
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I was going to mention the pace 529. Just fun and fast.
Best for a compliant rear was a Cove Hand job.
Yes that was a singletrack demon, must be about 10 years ago I sold mine and it was feeling a bit too flexy at the time IIRC.
My current Cotic is way stiffer, but still has a nice bit of give and even the odd zingy feeling when it gets up to speed. And it's much, much more capable obvs.
Can't comment on the Soul but my P7 27.5 is mint - fast, fun and plenty comfy with 2.4 Maxxis tyres fitted.
Nicest steel bike I've ridden would have to be my latest Soul. It is incredibly comfortable yet has enough brawn to be ridden like a loon. It's far smoother than my old BFe and others I've ridden, an old OnOne Inbred I rode was nowhere near as nice and Stanton frames I've ridden haven't been quite there either. Way, way back when I rode an original Evil Sovereign for a day and that was ace, properly nice frame
Original dialled bikes Prince Albert, that has a lovely smooth compliant ride. I had a few later ones and they got firmer over the years (due to testing?)
I had a Cotic Bfe too, that was really well made but as the name suggests, was rock solid, and great fun for riding round a BMX track but not so good as an actual trail bike to sit down and ride.
Would say dialled alpine also but really liked the two Sherpas I owned , must look at cotic thinking of a hardtail
The mk3 (tapered head tube) 26" Soul I had was lovely.
mint – fast, fun and plenty comfy with 2.4 Maxxis tyres fitted.
That describes my 2009 P7. With 2.4 tyres and 130mm squishers on I’m left at the borderline limit of wondering how much of a part the ’feel of steel is playing’ 😉
Similarly with the Mk1 Longitude and 2.2 rubber. But I think I can just about ‘feel the steel’.
OTOH, long-departed 1997 M-Trax 150 custom-butted cromo (another mid-range rigid steel MTB of yore) felt much zingy-er than both, even on 2” tyres. 1990s RSP-produced steel bikes under the name M-Trax were hugely under-rated, IMO.
My (1990?) British Eagle Touristique (Reynolds 531 Super-Tourist tubeset on 28c Schwalbe Super Marathons) feels zingy-est. It’s my King of Zing, and yet still plenty stiff when loaded. Would possibly make an epic gravelly bike but as of now I keep it in road-touring clothes
Regarding the whole thread - variance in tyres, pressures, forks and rider-weight do tend to mess up the whole ‘what is the best?’ metric. ‘What steel bike have you most enjoyed riding and why?’ makes more sense as a question
‘
I'd love a bike made out of Tange Prestige.
Can you still buy it?
it zinged, it buzzed, it skipped… 30 years ago now…
In 1988 I had a Robert's White Spider in a mix of Columbus tubing and the above describes in perfectly. I transferred all the parts from a 1986 Rockhopper with the one exception of the seatpost - you see even then there were all these different standards that made swapping frames such a pain.:-)
I think the Soma Bside is Tange steel
I cannot help thinking that CEN testing has ruined some modern steel frames.
This may be wrong though as modern frames are likely to be designed to be ridden harder than retro ones so they not come alive until they are pushed hard. Having said that springey frames should be nice even when ridden gently.
Independent Fabrication Steel Deluxe
I've got a '98 IF Steel Deluxe Single Speed. Still a great ride.
Check out the NS Bikes Eccentric! I love mine and it def has a great steel feel. Used to have an El Mariachi which I also loved, very compliant but I had a lot of seat post showing so that is where much of the flex/comfort came from. We all tend to run droppers now (which we don't want to flex and bind) so are getting a much more rigid feel from our steelys. Had an Orange P7 29 once which I found unforgiving, heavy and dead feeling - the only way I could ride it was with plus wheels and tyres. The Eccentric has much better quality Tange butted tubes and the ride is the polar opposite of the Orange.
Just spent a long day riding my rigid kona explosif. It was loads of fun but hard hard work and was wishing I had my new Orange P7 29 which I am finding is a fantastic ride. Having bigger wheels, more modern geometry, wider bars would have been way preferable. My nostalgia for the old bike collided with the physical realities of a very rocky ride that the new bike would have eaten for breakfast.
I have a mild Tange addiction, it stems from my 93 Orange Prestige. Also have a 94 Kona Explosif and a 2011 Charge skinny Duster. All have that steel zing, especially the Orange with its Ultralite tubeset. Also own an NS Eccentric as mentioned above, I absolutely love it. It definitely doesn't have the same zing as the older frames but then there is 800g more metal in the bare frame so it kinda makes sense it'll be stronger and a lot stiffer.
Having said that, the most steel feeling bike I have is (as per Ton up there somewhere) a 96 Bontrager Privateer, that is a really special bike to ride, I can't quite put my finger on why! I'd love to try a Bonty Racelite, the thinner walled tubing should give it even more zing!
Ah, when this label was the pinnacle of MTB aspiration...
Had three main tubes of it on my 1992 Kili Flyer, which is kind-of the same approach Cotic take now with the 853 I believe.
I'm hearing really great things about the MASON ISO which is Steel
https://masoncycles.cc/products/insearchof-force1x
Ah, when this label was the pinnacle of MTB aspiration…
Hold my beer...
@chakaping and @Malvern Rider, both of those decals still mean something to me for some inexplicable reason and yes I do own a bike with each!
My retro Sunn has double butted Tange tubes. Rides really well.
I've either never heard of Ultimate or forgot it existed.
Seems they used it on the earlier version of my old Team Marin, so perhaps similar to the Fuji tubing on that.
Seems to all be Reynolds tubing now. Is it just that they are able to supply better?
some of the Sunns from year 1999 had Fuji tubing too. Think they were the lesser models though.
There was Prestige, Prestige Ultimate Superlight, Prestige Ultimate Ultralite and Prestige Ultimate Ultrastrong, different wall thickness' and butt lengths depending on the tube, some of it had wall thickness' of 0.5mm! Ultrastrong was ribbed length ways and was used for downtubes. I have no idea how the Fuji tubing compares.
top end Sunns of 1999 had Columbus tubing.
Anything half decent and not CEN.
You do all know that the flex characteristics of steel are the same, fancy stuff only gets stronger (not stiffer) enabling it to be made lighter?
Back in the day Columbus, Tange and True Temper were big names, not sure why Reynolds seems to have it sewn up, in the UK at least.
I spec'd my Shand with Columbus Life, it's 1.8kg iirc, rides light.
Lightest steel frame I've ridden was a 1.6kg road Dedacciai, Salsa claimed 1.35kg for one of theirs which I don't believe.
Had three main tubes of it on my 1992 Kili Flyer, which is kind-of the same approach Cotic take now with the 853 I believe.
I don’t think 853 seat or chain stays are available. If my memory is correct.
I’m sure my Sunn Revolt 2 was Columbus. Very nice bike but too XC even in the 90s.
Edit. No sorry it was Fuji SL.
Ritchey Logic tubing on the Metal Guru, made be range I believe. Fat chance were doing some nth degree stuff bitd, I want to say quad butted but can't remember, one of the first to Tig weld too.
I don’t think 853 seat or chain stays are available. If my memory is correct.
They certainly didn't used to be, I have an 853 main tubes 725 seat & chainstays on one of my bikes which is around 12 years old. I thought I'd heard that you could now get 853 seat and chainstays but I might have imagined that.
I know my White Spider was a mix of Columbus tubing but I can't recall exactly what after 30 years
“You do all know that the flex characteristics of steel are the same, fancy stuff only gets stronger (not stiffer) enabling it to be made lighter?“
Yes, there’s almost no difference in Young’s modulus between all different steels - but if a steel is stronger which allows you to thin the tube walls, thus making it lighter, then the reduced wall thickness also reduces the stiffness of the tube.
A builder can then choose to add stiffness back by increasing the tube diameter. Basically the fancy steels allow you to tweak the stiffness much more than with cheaper steels, without the weight going through the roof.
Yep I thought we'd all been around long enough to realise that, but Al can't help himself with the patronising, eh?
I had an early rigid Spesh Stumpjumper (1988) which was Tange Prestige. Felt like it had a zip and a bounce, but so did I back then.
I always loved the feel of my Rock Lobster 853, which was of course pre-CEN and the feel was mainly flex.
I did briefly have a Kona Deluxe road bike with Deddaciai EOM tubing and carbon rear end, and that rode really nicely. Probably should have kept it but was lured by an Arkose (which has been brilliant though more workmanlike).
I've now got a Town Crier 29 frame, and even though it is post-CEN it has a very nice feel as it's built to be an XC style bike, not quite old style lively like the RL, but very enjoyable. Shows it's partly down to the build and modern tastes (it's not very modern in that sense). The Town Crier doesn't have many gussets and no big tubes, and the butting profiles are apparently very similar to 853 but it is 'only' cro-mo and not air-hardened like 853.
I had an early rigid Spesh Stumpjumper (1988) which was Tange Prestige. Felt like it had a zip and a bounce, but so did I back then.
Yeah,lots of that^^ 🙂
The only steel bike I raced at a decent level was my (rigid)Explosif Pro .I loved that bike and keep thinking I would like to ride one again sometime..>puts rose tinted specs back on< 🙂