I'm looking to upgrade the brakes on my 'big' bike (6.5" travel) to something considerably more powerful than the Mini's that the frame inherited (a mis-match I know).
The bike sees use in the Alps and the relatively tame local DH tracks, and also trips to Wales for general trail rides. I want to avoid boiled brakes and arm pump/claw hand.
I'm tempted by the new Saints, but wonder how usable they'll be for anything other than DH riding. Perhaps down sizing rotors would make them more useful for trail use.
I know a couple of people here have them on their DH bikes, but wondered if anyones using them as a general purpose brake?
I've been using the old saints (m800) for a couple of years for quite similar riding to your description. With 203mm rotors they are very powerful, but you just learn to squeeze the lever more softly. They are a quite usable all round brake. Just find a big hill to bed the pads in as it takes a bit to heat up large rotors.
for xc you could get away with 180 F/R if you can be arsed to buy & swap rotors and adaptors
I'm running M810 saints on my 'big' bike (7 inch travel) complete with 203mm rotors front and rear. They are stoopid powerful, but the modulation is brilliant so they cope fine on local trails (sort of fast downhilly-type stuff with some jumps and berms). I may change to a 185mm rotor at the back though.
I'd happily run them on my little (sub 5 inch travel) bike with 185/160 rotors, but have some nice shiny SLX on there which are plenty good enough.
I have old Saint brakes with 160mm rotors admittedly on my 5in forked hardtail.
You can never have too powerful brakes.
Yeah, if the modulation is there to control it then you can have unlimited power. I have heard that the new saints are quite complicated to bleed, set up and service. Cant confirm this though.
I've got old style saints on my trail bike. They do, but I wouldnt put them on my dh bike as the lock point seems to require too much effort imo. You'll forget about them for general riding - they work very well. When the going gets very very fast or steep they dont perform brilliantly.
Ols Saint are the same as old XT. New Saint are a totally different beast.
I am aware of that. That's why I made a clear distinction between the two.
The latest XTs with the 20 per-cent power increase from the lever are very strong. I don't see why you shouldn't run the four-pot Saints, but the XTs are more than adquate and with a big rotor, really strong. The old Saints, as above, were just the old XTs with a different colour caliper and lever, the new XTs are significantly stronger than the old Saints. Anyway, that's not really answered your question, but for the riding you're describing, I'd have thought the new XTs with 203 front and 180 back maybe, would be spot on.
That's the other option I'm considering, XT's with 203's, as it ought to be lighter and cheaper (and more pad options). Some of these lazy piston/seal issues are a little disconcerting though.
A third option is to buy XT levers, XT rear caliper and Saint front caliper for a best of both worlds approach.
But others appeared not to realise that hence my post.
can the new saints be 'that much' better than the old ones? The old ones were pretty damn good. Is it just more power or more modulation as well?
Shimano *claim* a 50% increase in power over the 800 Saints. Even if it's 25%, that's still decent. As long as it's controllable power, of course.
Just like the old Pirelli car tyre adverts used to say: "Power is nothing without control"
I've not used the new M810 Saints, but have heard they're a bloody good brake. If you look at some of the competition though, for instance Hayes, they're extremely powerful too, but are far too on/off in my opinion to be controlled well. And Hope's are generally too far the other way, too spongy and too much modulation again IMO. Of course, it's horses for courses, there are world cup level DH riders out there on both Hayes and Hope brakes, as well as Shimano or any other brand you care to mention, so there is no correct answer!
FWIW I've got a bike set up very much like you describe yours doof_doof, 6.5" travel both ends, ride it a bit of all sorts, but will also do a bit of DH on it too. It's got old Shimano XT 4 pots on (I still love them!) with a 203mm front rotor, and a 180mm rear. If I replaced them with anything, it would be the current M770 2 pot XT's with a 203mm front and a 180mm rear rotor. Personally I think the Saints would be overkill, and would prefer the cheaper and lighter XT's (I'm under 12 stone too so the extra power of Saints wouldn't be necessary). I'd probably even run the XT 2 pots on a DH bike too, though again more to do with the fact I'm not all that heavy when compared to some other riders.
Oh, and Bigger rotors with smaller/lighter calipers everytime over larger more powerful calipers with smaller rotors IMO. The larger rotors help dissipate the heat better, and you get more "leverage" to stop the wheel rotating. A Larger caliper with smaller rotors will probably be about the same power, but more susceptible to heat buildup.
I use them for AM, trail and DH duties on a 6" bike. I'm 17.5st and never need to use more than 1 finger even under full braking/stoppies which reduces hand fatigue no end. They feel better built than my old Mono M4's. It took me a couple of descents to get used to them having a little less modulation at pad contact and initial braking but once into proper braking they have at least as much modulation without the spongyness. They even take Mono M4/old XT pads if you file off the dog ears on the pad backing plate.
Agree that XT brakes are all the lighter rider would need.