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Delta. Difference. Potayto. Potarto. Let's call the whole thing off, or at least go start your own thread about it rather than derail this one.
Full disclosure. Cotic fanboi. On my third now (BFe (one of the XS frames, now built as a pump track bike) > Rocket (frame still sat in the garage as missed any window to sell it for reasonable returns) > RocketMAX).
Not sure about the earlier mentioned perception of Cotic as an off the shelf cheap Taiwanese brand? They've always felt like a bit more than that to me.
I absolutely see why the price jump for the new Solaris surprises some people, and it is a fair whack of cash for a hardtail, but if I was in the market for a steel hardtail it would be near the top of my list anyway. for a few reasons...
- I'm (very) lucky enough right now to be able to not worry TOO much about the cost differential (but appreciate that this is not the case for everyone by any means). Yes it would have an impact but wouldn't be the defining element in my choice. Because...
- It MIGHT just be marketing, but with Cy and the team it feels like you're buying into more than just an object. Their stated ethos about both bikes and the MTB business sits well with me. If this is just marketing bullshit then that's on me for falling for it, but I've met the crew a few times and I don't think that's what's going on.
- I love the fact that Cy, Kelvin, etc. will jump in here and get involved in conversations, even when they're not entirely positive towards the company. Again, it's part of marketing but it does feel like Cotic are open and part of our community.
- On a personal level I just like the way they operate. My RocketMAX was a present, and in the few months between it being ordered and my actual birthday they agreed to find excuses not to sell me anything if I put an order in myself. That just reflects what others have said about their customer service (I've never needed to go back to them about any of my frames but before each sale they've been brilliant talking about sizing and at the demos I've attended - they seem to want to get it right rather than just push the sale regardless). I was on the list for one of the original UK built Rockets that never happened, but throughout that situation the communications were honest enough that it never put me off the brand.
- On a basic level, I just love the way the bikes ride and look, and lets not kid ourselves - that's a huge part of why most of us ride what we do. These bikes are toys and we buy what appeals to us for whatever reasons.
Cy's explanation here of the move to European manufacture makes sense in the context of what he's said previously about his feeling of responsibility towards his employees, and I am pretty sure that none of these decisions will have been taken without being confident that it will leave Cotic in at least an equivalent place in terms of turnover, etc.
I guess the bottom line is that those who are lucky enough to be able to afford the new price in the current climate and appreciate what Cy is trying to do will buy one anyway and offset the lack of availability of Taiwanese frames and lost sales from those who want or need to find a cheaper option.
BTW, we still don’t know what sort of individual you think they are? Surely you know, don’t you?
You're giving us a bloody good idea.
Thanks for the kind words everyone. It’s very much appreciated.
Thanks for chipping in. It's nice to have all the wild speculation deflated by someone with the actual answers to the questions. I wish we had someone in that position on every thread!
You’re giving us a bloody good idea.
Tell me more. And who is "us"? Are you speaking on behalf of a group?
It's pretty simple. Someone went totally OT and made ridiculous assumptions about me based on the fact I used the word "delta" rather than "difference". I could have ignored it but why can't I defend myself?
As confirmed later it said far more about them than about me. It is your prerogative to agree with them but surely you can tell me more rather than enter the same coy approach.
So I'll ask again, what type of person says "delta" rather than "difference"?
Interesting thread. To get back to the nub of the matter, I have a pre-order for a new Solaris and have no intention of dropping out. My pre-existing bikes are now all retro, I last bought one in 2016, none of them are compatible with boost, tapered head tubes etc. and I am starting to have a few potential issues with compatible parts ( not helped by the fact that new straight steerer 26inch forks still seem to be sold in the EU but not this side of the channel).
I did look around at various options but I have never had a Cotic and always admired the company and the bikes. I am local to Pace and they are good people as well but the 529 has a good bit more travel than I need for what I do and the cost of a rolling chassis is very similar to the Solaris, post price rise.
I did read with interest the comments earlier in the thread about the Holt, but as far as I could establish that is built by the same, well established, factory that Cotic are using in Czechia.
Must sting a bit to see that kind of price rise on a pre-order, though.
Cy's reply puts a different slant on it, they are being more or less forced to move production from Taiwan, rather than choosing to do so.
Must sting a bit to see that kind of price rise on a pre-order, though.
In fairness, although the price has gone up for existing pre-orders, the rise is less than the quoted price for new orders. Over the lifetime of the frame it isn't a huge amount and if I am going to be a customer then I have a vested interest in seeing Cotic survive and prosper.
Sadly, what happens if a company's cash flow or balance sheet goes haywire is currently being demonstrated by CRC/Wiggle and Cy has very clearly described the stress that that risk brings. I don't have an issue with the price rise if that is what is needed to keep them in business and feel desperately sorry for all those whose livelihoods are threatened by CRC/Wiggle going into administration. Whether my new bike costs me a bit extra is a whole load less important than people being able to pay their mortgage, food and heating bills.
Cy’s reply puts a different slant on it, they are being more or less forced to move production from Taiwan, rather than choosing to do so.
We had already started the plan to onshore more of our production earlier in 2024 for all the reasons mentioned, even before things got trickier from Taiwan. All the current delays did was mean we had to move the timetable up. Fort had been doing production engineering for months on the Solaris before we made the decision to move this batch from Taiwan to CZ.
In fairness, although the price has gone up for existing pre-orders, the rise is less than the quoted price for new orders. Over the lifetime of the frame it isn’t a huge amount and if I am going to be a customer then I have a vested interest in seeing Cotic survive and prosper.
Thank you.
Rather than start a new thread - has anyone heard how Stanton are getting on since their troubles?
I imagine they are competing for the same type of customer as Cotic. And also selling on a similar UK Made/Asian Made split model.
Stanton seem have a decent amount of stock with lots of new frames being painted. I was eyeing up a switch9er. Some of the paint jobs are awesome. Most are Taiwan 4130, I think there are only one or two UK made 631 frames in stock.
Just curios, and I may have missed it among the replies, but is there a plan to move more/all of Taiwanese production to the EU for other models (thinking of all the 4130 frames)? Or is it a case of spreading production to reduce risk?
I would guess material costs would then become a proportionately smaller part if so, so possibly opens the doors for more 853 frames?
BFe & BFeMAX (853 downtube, chromo for other tubes) frames still being made in Taiwan. Escapade still being made in Taiwan. Swingarms and seatstays for full suss bikes still being made in Taiwan.
Solaris being made in Czechia.
Front triangle fabrication and dipping, painting and finishing of full suss bikes carried out in the UK. There are still some Taiwan Jehts left in stock.
If you look on the Cotic website product pages, each model has an "origin" section that transparently says where they are being built. It will continue to vary between models. There will be future batches from all three countries, with prices reflecting that (they have to, they are based on costs).
Using 853 in Czechia and UK built frames does make great sense, for the reason you point out and for reduced milage in the supply chain.
Oh... missed out the Cascade... Taiwan built, 853, and literally just arrived in ace new colours... [ I'd post some photos, but that might look like an advert ].
I reckon the 'stealth' Cascade ad balances out the stealth Stanton ad, so we're all good?
Same size frame, but cotic recommended running a 20-30mm longer stem with a low /negative rise, so I've got 70mm one mine.
I ddn't size up with my Cascade and run it flat bar. Started off with Funn G-Wide bars but didn;t like them so tried on one OG bars, but now just running normal MTB flat bars with a 60mm stem. Would like something with about 20 degrees backsweep really. Reckon it's one of those you need to have play with and see what suits your proportions.
This was it with the OG's and 80mm stem, need to get a phtot with the normal bars and shorter stem:
I'm glad I bought it when I did though, as I'd have probably opted for the Solaris had it been released when I bought the Cascade, but I couldn't afford/justify the price increase now. Cascade is a great bike, i'm well happy with it and I love Cotic generally, would love one of there FS bikes. I'll probably let the Dentists and IT manager buy them first though and pick one up second hand!
This place is ace. First couple of pages, absolute outrage. Cy responds and the next page and a half are people lining up to buy a Cotic. Cy literally is the best marketing person ever 😀
Would like something with about 20 degrees backsweep really. Reckon it’s one of those you need to have play with and see what suits your proportions.
Quick note on this... Paul and Sam (@ cotic.co.uk) are getting some swept back bars to ride themselves on Cascade (and Solaris) to be able to better help with sizing and speccing with these kind of bars. Normal flatbars and dropbars they have covered... drop them an email.
Oh man, I want an army green cascade to run as a flat bar now…
First few builds for customers like that here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/coticltd/albums/72177720312400478
DaveyBoyWonder
This place is ace. First couple of pages, absolute outrage. Cy responds and the next page and a half are people lining up to buy a Cotic. Cy literally is the best marketing person ever 😀
Think everyone likes Cotic, I've had four of them. Not sure it was outrage really, more "Oh no, stuff I really like is now much more expensive", which nobody is a fan of.
https://www.18bikes.co.uk/2021-18-bikes-9-frame.html?id=256458899
Made in Sheffield, £1K, brilliant bike, just sayin'
Quick note on this… Paul and Sam (@ cotic.co.uk) are getting some swept back bars to ride themselves on Cascade (and Solaris) to be able to better help with sizing and speccing with these kind of bars. Normal flatbars and dropbars they have covered… drop them an email.
Good to know, I've been thinking about the Salsa Bend Deluxe. Comes in 17 or 23 degrees.
I've got a Cascade (sniped of the heavily discounted XL's from the end of the last batch), in Lichen. I generally ride Large Cotic's, but at 6ft with long arms have sometimes felt I should be on an XL.
Anyway, following an Instagram comments chat I sized up to an XL Cascade and am running it with a 70mm 0° stem and Stooge Moto bars, with a lot of spacers and a full length steerer for now as it's a bit of a cruiser at the moment. It works. Though I might get rid of my gravel bike in time as I think I can make it work with shallow drops and a super short stem.
That Cosmic Black Cascade is giving me twinges, memories of my Barry White Inbred.