[Closed] New Cotic?

I was thinking of the 100mm as it fits the kind of riding darn sarf that I do 🙂

what was in it?

Yeah i said 100mm too for the same reason, wwaswas.

Cy's testing out two new full susser's.

Alu 100mm rear and 100-120mm front or a steel 125mm rear with 120-140mm up front (both based on the rocket suspension system).

Eh is putting this on ok Mods? I do like these emails the only marketing type stuff I read rather than bin! Would like a Solaris really like the look of those! 8)

Morning!

Hope you're well and getting out despite the weather. It's really not been good to us this year, has it?
What I'm hoping for with this letter is some help and some insight. I'm going to let you in on a couple of frames we're working on to expand the droplink suspension platform and I'd like some feedback from you on what you'd prefer - if anything - out of the options we're looking at, and if we're not going the way you're interested in, what would you like?

The Rocket has been going brilliantly for us and it's been great to successfully get into a part of the market that Cotic hasn't traditionally found itself in. However, this new area of the market is part of the issue I'd like some help with. Whilst the Rocket is absolutely the bike I wanted for blasting around my home trails of the Peak District, a lot of people we've spoken to seem to think it will be "too much bike" for them. This surprised me a little bit, as I've quite happily put some zippy tyres on mine and shot about on singletrack trails without wishing I was on something else. People really seem to be interested in the idea of the Rocket, with it's steel construction and clean lines, but some feel it's more than they want/need.

Realistically our usual customers (your good self) are hardtail fans, and there is definitely a body of opinion out there that people would rather be ragging a shorter travel bike towards it's limits than going off in search of the lofty limits of a 150mm bike. This being the case, we have had a couple of options on test for a couple of months now and both are getting to the point of being sorted. However, I can't see us doing both of them - not initially anyway - so I'd like some feedback from you. Here are our current development bikes, both 26" wheel before you ask!

1) 125mm travel, 120-140mm forks, very much related to the Rocket with a steel front end and Rocket swingarm with the X-12 axle. 67.5/73 angles with 140 forks, 68.5/74 with 120's. Frame weight in the high 6lbs range. With 120mm forks it's proper nippy at trail centres, with 140mm forks it'll handle the Peak in very much mini Rocket style. Obviously carries the steel front end and aesthetic of the Rocket into something shorter and a little less intimidating.

2) 100mm travel, 100-120mm forks, aluminium throughout, basically Soul geometry. For those with a long memory for Cotic facts, the geometry on this frame is based on the KP24 prototype we did a few years back for Kate Potter to race one. Frame weight is around 6lbs depending on size. 100mm FS frames these days all seem to be either crazy light carbon or jumpy slopestyle. Nobody really makes
a 100mm travel trail FS frame. That could be either an opportunity to fill a niche or a sales disaster waiting to happen!!

Personally, I prefer the 125mm bike. It's something very much like the Rocket experience in a lighter and nippier package, and particularly at trail centres and the like you do feel much less 'overbiked' than riding the Rocket. On the 100mm frame, for me I'd rather ride my Solaris 29er hardtail as I think it does mostly the same things but lighter. On the flipside, Paul (who's 5ft 8in and doesn't really get on with 29ers) thinks it's basically a faster version of his Soul, which therefore makes it brilliant. It's clearly a good bike though, and despite my feelings towards it, I know plenty of people who don't want to go 29".  
Be interested to know your thoughts. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Cheers,

Cy

 +++++++++++++++++++

I have a Flux and a Solaris and have just sold my Soul

In my opinion these bikes are too close in comfort/ability, if I wanted a trail centre machine I think the 125/140mm machine would get my vote

I have a 150mm travel bike and don't tend to use it much as find it a bit much for local XC and the Wales trail centres

I'd edit to remove your email address 😉

Maybe just leave body if email?

Yep just saw that!! Thanks Was!

I'm down south but I think I would prefer the 125 version.

100mm travel with 100-120mm forks. Like a Superlight then? I reckon that's more than enough bike for most folk.

Dunno druidh, I run an ex8 but often wish I could run a 140mm fork especially when I'm in Wales. Trek told me they don't warranty a 140mm fork on an ex8 so this would be right up my street.

Like Frankers I used to run a 150mm, but it was complete overkill.

This bike would suit me well with a Talas up front.

The 125 rear 120-140 up front seems alittle to close to the Rocket, imo might as well aim for the other end of the market, and for people who ride trails but also would like a bike that they can enter into the occaisonal race or two when it suits them, so 100/100-120 gets my vote.

Is Cy going to read this thread or does he want people to mail him?

I replied to his mail directly. If we drum up enough support maybe we can get him to build both...eventually.

Some people just havnt come to terms with the fact 29ers are better. 😆

I'd rather ride my 140mm Soul than a 100mm FS. If I got a Rocket I'd want 150 or 160mm fat stanchioned forks (not 32s!) so I guess it would end up a fairly blunt DH focused instrument, so as a one bike solution instead of a Soul and a Rocket, both in heavy duty spec, then a 140/125 low slack FS would make sense. The Soul and Solaris are such excellent XC/trail machines that I can't really see the point of a similar geometry but heavier FS.

I don't own a 29er but I'd probably make a 120-140F/100R 29er FS instead of either option!

I'm going to throw a spanner in the works, I like my 140mm hardtail, I like my 120mm full suss, what I'd really like in a full suss is 140 front, 100 rear, but I am a single voice looking for something different.

Edit - I'd like to keep it 26 as well...

If I had one MTB (which I do), it would be 125mm and 120/140mm (which it is). If I had two, the second would be a hardtail with 100/120mm, and if I had three, the third would be 160mm and 160/180mm.

pleaderwilliams - what bike is that your running?

I have one bike, a Rocket with 160mm Bos. I never lose any sleep from being over biked. I am over biked 80% of the time I'd say.
I regularly do local xc mincer rides. I find there is always something along the way that warrants the suspension.

Just been reading this thread and my initial preference is the 125mm travel option...but with the frame weight of the 100mm travel option. Be a good replacement for my Hemlock particularly as I normally run it at 120mm travel

Failing that, I'd second PrinceJohn's suggestion "[i]what I'd really like in a full suss is 140 front, 100 rear[/i]"

...although I also like chiefgrooveguru's suggestion "[i]I'd probably make a 120-140F/100R 29er FS instead of either option![/i]"

Hmmm, it is tricky 😕

The 100mm sounds like the one for me.
If it looks as good as the Rocket and rides as well as a Soul or Solaris, I'll be getting myself one 😀

120R/120-140F 650b would get my vote. But Cy didn't seem to keen at Bespoked when I suggested it.

100R/120F 650b gets my 'x'... Nearly with you andyl! 🙂

I'd probably make a 120-140F/100R 29er FS instead of either option!

+1, it'd be right at the top of my list.

CBA with 650b, I'm 6ft and 95kg so no need for training wheels :p

Does anyone know what happend to those ragley frames that were 20 mm difference in travel at each end ? Did they ever go on sale

100mm FS frames these days all seem to be either crazy light carbon or jumpy slopestyle. Nobody really makes
a 100mm travel trail FS frame.

Isn't that sort of what Marin tried to do with the Rift Zone when they re introduced it. I think everyone looked at it and just thought that's too heavy for a 100mm bike. And of course being a Marin meant no one on here could buy it anyway. 🙂

Weight is a bit of an issue generally isn't it? The Rocket is burley enough for it not to be such a clincher, but anything shorter travel is going to struggle to compete (theoretically if not in practice) with the wide array of lightweight all-rounders. Personally I reckon a big wheeled version of the Rocket would be the most compelling, but that wasn't on the list.

I'm actually in the same camp as PrinceJohn, so that makes two of us.

Of the options offered though, I'd have to go with 125r, 120-140f.

shorter travel trail geo for sure

125 rear travel definitely gets my vote.

@moonsaballon - no they didn't, went AWOL.

But, 140mm front, 100mm rear, like what the Ragley 10-4 was supposed to have, would be awesome.

120ish both ends, lightish weight, all day FS XC kind of bike would make more sense to me. Lots in that market though, but loads of them are moving up to higher numbers just because bigger numbers are better.

Or 2 shock mount positions on the link to swap between 100 and 120 (ish) at the back, and rate it for 100-120 (ish) forks? Kill 2 birds with 1 stone, and no need for linker change like on the Hemlock.

100 mm travel ripper, as slack a head angle as you dare (67 with 120 forks) built up with light weight rims, single front ring would weigh 25 lbs, given I have a Cotic (medium) with 2.25 and 2.4 tyres on, that weighs in at 23.5 lbs.

Orange have just got rid of their ST4 which was basically a 120mm trail bike, problem was that built up its weight wasn't that shy of a well specced Five..!

I'd want a 29er with 100/120mm rear and 120/140mm front.
Not an option though so i'll get my coat...

pleaderwilliams - what bike is that your running?

Trance X with Sektor U-Turns.

Will it be as expensive as the Rocket? 🙁

As an ex Orange ST4 rider, I totally get the 'slightly nippier, slightly lighter, slightly less travel but still stronger and stiffer than an XC bike' bike for all sorts of riding. 100/120mm worked brilliantly for 90% of the time - there was the occasional Peaks or uber-rock Highland descent where you felt a few bottom-outs, but it was a couple of times a year - maybe if you are an uber-gnar rider you will want more, but for most of us, I think this works.
100/120mm for me.

or uber-rock Highland descent

Humm where is that?

[i]Humm where is that? [/i]

It's all of them, just with Slayer on your iPod.

New email:

Me again.

After an overwhelming response to yesterdays' email, I wanted to drop you a line to say thanks and to let you know the result, and answer some questions.
Firstly, the vast majority of people who responded are saying that our Option1 frame, the mid-travel steel front end frame for 120-140mm forks, is the one they want. It seems our suspicions were correct and plenty of our love the look and idea of the Rocket, but want something a little shorter travel, lighter and nippier. So, your wish is our command and we'll be focusing on developing the mid-travel 'mini' Rocket into production. There's still a bit of work to do, so expect something in production probably next summer.

A few points I picked up are worth drawing out and explaining though.

Firstly weight. Quite few mentioned about the frame weight on the mid-travel frame would be good down at 6lb or below. I'm sure it would, but this is moon-on-a-stick territory for a bike like this made from metal, be that steel or aluminium. The only way you're making a tough, stiff bike like this at that weight is with carbon. A good few of you sited the Blur TRc as an ace concept 'if only the frame wasn't nearly £3,000'. Well, that's where you're at building a hard riding bike at 5.3lbs frame weight.

This frame will be a good bit lighter than the Rocket, but it'll be in the 6.5lb+ weigh bracket because I won't sacrifice durability I want from any of our products or the stiffness than makes the Rocket so ace. The key thing is that the shorter travel suits a lighter build. When I went out to Portugal with AQR Holidays in March, I took my Rocket with tubeless'd Maxxis IKON tyres, swapped my Reverb for a lightweight rigid post, and popped a smaller front rotor on the bike. It was already running Fox Float 32 150's which are pretty light, and the bike was down at sub-29lbs with pedals. With a lighter frame, lighter wheels and lighter 120mm forks, you're looking at knocking another pound or so off this, and my bike has full XT and Magura brakes and nothing fancy in terms of finishing kit. The mid-travel bike will easily build into a good weight build which will suit it.

Secondly, we got a few votes for a 100mm travel frame but with slack-as-you-dare angles on a 120mm fork. The reason this isn't on the table is because I have some experience with this kind of set up, and although it seems attractive the reality is less rosey. When I was developing the geometry for the new bikes I had some K9 anglesets for the Hemlock. With the -2deg cups in from the Rocket geometry development, I then set about trying to get something short/mid-travel that I liked. I tried out a really radical option for a while, the Hemlock with 120mm rear travel, 120mm forks at 67.5deg head angle, REALLY low BB. It completely ripped on smoother trails with flowing corners, but I found it hard to climb on compared to the Rocket geometry because of the low BB and the slack angles just didn't seem to suit the shorter travel. However, the key thing that pushed me away from this option is that 120mm forks aren't stiff enough for the situations the geometry gets you into. You're on this stable, confidence inspiring little firecracker of a thing, blasting down some rocks and you get to a very obvious point in the speed where the forks suddenly aren't stiff enough to deal with the speed you've got up, and everything gets very scarey in a the-bike-is-trying-to-kill-me kind of way. These were QR15 Fox forks, not QR. I also wrecked a mid-weight rear rim, again because of the speed the geometry insighted. So, basically you'd need a stiffer longer travel fork reduced in travel to sort the front end, and stronger heavier wheels to take the beating. At which point everything weighs as much as the longer travel bike, but this one is limited in the rocks by it's reduced travel. Fail.

The best option I ended up with was something slightly steeper (the mid-travel development bike is similar shape to the crazy slack Hemlock test bike, except for a 68.5 deg head angle on 120mm forks). With the sharper handling and shorter wheelbase it's nippier in tight singletrack and whips around berms at trail centres, yet is kind of naturally self limiting on rockier terrain without being too scary. The 140mm option on the mid-travel bike takes the head angle back to 67.5deg again, but the longer travel and stiffer platform of the bigger fork can cash the cheques the geometry is writing which makes it a lot of fun on rockier sections. 67.5 is still around 0.5deg steeper than the Rocket with 140mm forks, so the bike is still a little shorter and steeper overall, a little less 'gravity'.

Third point - we got a few people asking about 100mm rear, 140mm front. We always get a bit of this, and whilst it's not currently in the plan, the bolted and bonded construction method we use on the shock mounting means it is possible to do a small run of the steel frame with a different shock mount to suit a shorter shock. Something for once we're in production, and it would definitely be hefty deposits only. Can't see a huge market, but if enough people put their money where their mouth is we can make it happen.

Finally, a lot of people mentioning bigger wheels. I specifically didn't throw that into the mix here because the shorter 26" platform is the one we were specifically concerned about. I am working on a 29" version of the droplink platform which I will hopefully be able to show you prototypes of in the new year. We've not looked at all at 650b, and I'm surprised quite so many people mentioned it. It seems the marketing is working 😉 I will look at it at some point, but having measured up some wheels it's so close to 26" that it's not high on my list of priorities right now.
Thanks again for being involved. It's been really useful, and I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

Cheers,

Cy

OK,OK, you win, i'll do the test riding, sheesh.

My old stumpy is set up 125/140 and its super sweet,a winning combo

i'll do the test riding

Cy I'm quite a bad rider. I could even hire an Audi. So I'd be representative of your customers (STWers). So if you need someone to test how it rides...I'm your man.

I was surprised to find my `old' Stumpy frame was only 1lb heavier than my Soul at 5.4lb.

Now this all sorted (well kind of)...Cy can I also suggest that you introduce a custom colour scheme much like Orange or Santa Cruz. Even being able to pick from the orange, green and blue on each bike would be brilliant and I'd be happy...(checks wallet)...to pay a bit more too!

Scamper - really? [start playing Dvorak, New World No 5] Good old bus the stumpy they're still as good as most bikes out there I reckon, mines an 06 comp, eeh she could tell a few tales, a triggers brush special she is, but she's definitely starting to feel the years/abuse/lack of maintenance...as such it'd be nice to have a slightly firmer start to the suspension stroke without the platform damping/would be good to see a more progressive spring rate/nice to have a stiffer rear end/internal cable routing/tapered head tube for 16% increase in lateral stiffness/virtually any bullsh*t excuse to buy a new bike - in hot pink

Have a 5.Spot and a Flux (I'm a mug for Turner basically). Have to say that the Flux is every bit the bike for 90% of the riding that I do and can handle the other 10%, albeit not as fast as the 5.Spot. Took it around the long loop at Penmachno last weekend. Seriously eroded in places, so way more black than red for the majority of it. Flux kept up with 160mm Enduro no probs. Honestly think that lots of bikes we ride in this country are over-gunned, but fully appreciate that its ultimately down to the individual. therefore, my vote would be for the 100mm, but I guess that that bird has already flown.

Finally 😀 A 120mm to 140mm travel steel framed full sus gets my man bits fizzing in anticipation, for years i've held off buying a full sus as i have an irrational hatred of alloy hydroformed bikes and as for carbon?....Pffft! - a bike should look like a bike not some god-forsaken monstrosity of a multi legged squatting/shitting dog like so many uglies out there, shameful to admit but a bike should have looks along with function and a clearly defined fit for purpose ability. Sounds ideal for my type of riding Cy, when can we order one?, if you need extensive testing done bring it up to Galloway, we'll treat you to some sweet off piste big hill trails up here along with the usual 7stanes stuff.

(Kenny here, I spoke to paul on sat)

Cy
Great review, the problem is always building in strength, as these bikes are going to be ridden hard by some.
As well as a light "woods" Soul I have an Orange five with two complete wheel sets the bike then weighs either 27.5 or just under 29 lbs BUT completely different in character. I only run 140 mm bolt throughs and Maxle back end.
Which is why going to a 100 mm fs soul would be the one for me!

Make a prototype (68 head with a firm 120 up front and 100 rear) in large and i'll buy it when your done. Seems like a few others would like that type of bike also.

Too late for the vote, not that it matters because a full sis bike is not on my radar. But for my tup-pence worth, how about a proper, as in 21", Soul with swappable drop-outs, so I can run it SS? Or even resurrect the 26" wheeled Simple?

However, the key thing that pushed me away from this option is that 120mm forks aren't stiff enough for the situations the geometry gets you into.

Is a 150mm Rev really *that* much stiffer than a 120 Reba thru axle (or equivalent models for Fox)?

Yes. It's partly stiffness, partly travel, but my preference on the Rocket is a light ish 150mm 32 stantion fork which I have no trouble with at all. As you can see from my letter I got myself into some deep scary trouble on similar geometry bike with shorter travel.

I'm sure Cy knows more about marketing mountain bikes than me, but I'm not sure who would actually buy a mini Rocket. In theory I'm the target demographic. I think the Rocket looks good and could be ideal for the sort of natural Scottish trail riding I enjoy, but I worry that it may be too much bike. So a 120/140 version sounds great and may get a few more people looking at the brand. But, unless it is significantly lighter or handles significantly better than the existing Rocket I expect I'd end up thinking that I might as well have the extra travel just in case I ever need it.

It will be interesting to see what Cy does with the bigger wheels though. There are definitely some gaps in the market there.

Cheers

Andy

I think it sounds great. By the sound of it the frame will weigh 2lb ish more than than a Soul, plus a bit of extra weight for the longer fork, which isn't a massive hike. Think I might be sold, I've been considering something similar to a TRC which isn't crazy money!

A longer fork as 20mm 130-150 Revs only add on circa 80g to a QR Reba weight. Going on what Cy suggests, looking at my reasonably tough 1x9 Soul build which includes Revs, Arch EX and 180/180 Deore brakes you'd be looking at a 27-28lb bike depening on tyre choice. Be interesting to see the price, though.

Obviously price isn't set at all yet, but I can't see why anything we're doing would mean it costs more than the Rocket, so I'd expect similar pricing. Major variable will be what shocks cost by the time we're in a position to sell some.

Cy
Fastest bike I have been on recently was a 140 mm 29 er, so fast it needed air brakes, well into warp speed. Crashes probably leading to an orthopaedic unit visit! However the biggest problem is rim strength , as they were being trashed at a regular rate due to the impact speed. Bigger tyres, yep ok but then you have a 2 kg plus rotating mass!
So the best 29 er for my skills/self preservation was a lightweight 120 mm full sus 29er,
Just a thought!!

I'd still just buy a rocket.

A rocket won't be that much heavier than the shorter travel bike and already is supposed to handle "like a short travel bike, until you need the extra travel".

The top tube is pretty much the same length as the Soul, so wouldn't be worried about it being too long.

Oh hold on... a Rocket is still quite slack by comparison... hmm. Not sure.

Yes I am. Still want a Rocket.

Rockette?
Pocket Rocket?

Surely this frame has to be £1000-1200? Or you just may as well buy the rocket which can cover all based?

Must be nearing completion? 😀