As a lifelong cycling fan who is a few years from retirement I am contemplating training to become a framebuilder. Steel frames, road track and mtb. I don't need to make loads of money, I know I'm not going to get rich, but it would be a great occupation for me in many ways.
Your thoughts?
if you have a clear vision for what you're trying to build, the skills and tools to realise it and a market that's willing to pay you to do it then why not?
there's an increasing number of frame builders about in the UK - go to the bespoke bike show in Bristol and see what they're doing?
Well you've got the username for it, at least.
postmans syndrome?
I've often thought about that as I have a background in steel fabrication and design, but I guess it's a hard trade to get into with not many opportunities.
Good luck.
What's/will be your niche as WWW says, seems to be a fair few now covering pretty much all levels of bespoke.
brand it right, you'll win. look at how much old steel road frames go for these days to the urban trendy.
Just give it a go. There are courses you can enrol on if that helps, maybe try building something to your tastes as a starting point.
If you can make it a hobby that might make some money then yes. If you would need to rely on it to make a living then be very cautious.
I think yo would need a usp as well to distinguish yourself from the other more established people around
Have you a background in engineering and do you know what makes a good/bad frame?
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Yes I have a previous career in engineering, and as a big fan of Robin Mather and Steven Shand, I'd like to go down that route.
My niche would initially have to be quality for a good price.
To be successful in any business you have to be totally commited, not just building frames, but marketing, development etc.
Don't underestimate it.
I suggest employing TJ as your brand manager 😉
Accepting you won't make a lot of money is probably a good start!
Have you got a background in Engineering, existing fabricating skills, apprenticeship?
Where are you planning on training? Might be hard to find an apprenticeship with a framebuilder which would be the proper inroad if you have no experience in metalwork. A 1 week course to make a frame is a good start but doesen't exactly qualify you 🙂 . I'd probably have more faith in a builder with the pre-existing skills to work it out himself (without needing a specific course).
After "training" you will need to make a lot of practice frames for friends etc before being confident to sell to the public.
Have you built one before? It can be quite labour intensive, slow, laborious work, especially if producing in enough volume to make a living.
I've built a few frames but certainly in no hurry to make it a career. If you do the research, a lot of the American builders also have a day job.
What are the liability implications if someone bins it due to failure of a frame you built?
What are the liability implications if someone bins it due to failure of a frame you built?
That applies to the most skilled and experienced frame builders too. Insurance
yossarian - MemberI suggest employing TJ as your brand manager
Ha! 😆
I suggest you focus on urban utility bike as that's where the market is heading in future but you need to be very creative.
What you do not have to worry with urban utility is the problems of getting the angle right for suspension or full suspension.
Like this here.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-new-fashion-utility-bikes ]Utility bikes[/url]
Listen to Norman Taylor at about 5:40
"... taught about 30 lads to build frames over the last 50 years..... only about one in ten [lads] have been any good...."
What are the liability implications if someone bins it due to failure of a frame you built?
This is why all(?) businesses have liability insurance just in case.
I think it will be difficult to make any money after paying for equipment, advertising etc, what's your profit per frame and how many do you think you'll sell ? That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it for fun but I suspect there is something else bike related which would be enjoyable and make a bit more money.
Where do you live ?
I might suggest hooking up with a local builder with too much work to handle.
A lad I know has just set up in business building frames.
look at how much old steel road frames go for these days to
Those of us who dont like aluminium and carbon
Thankyou all very much for your input so far. Many points have been raised that are genuinely worth consideration. I have a plan, some unique ideas and some great support. (I knew my kids would come in handy one day!)
But there's nothing like hearing other peoples' perspective. Thanks again.
Shand tells me it's v tough to make any money at it...as TJ says, a USP may help, but your work would have to be good.
I can be your first custom urban utility bike genuine pig if you want ... 
Learn Chinese & get a passport.
Learn Chinese & get a passport.
....and go on a carbon laminating course
Article in WMB October 2011 no 127 called "Frame Academy"
Probably just committed forum heresy on STW
My ill-considered and poorly thought out opinion:
There is a particular generation of cyclists out there at the moment for whom a steel frame represents something important. They have grown up wanting one, but have settled for aluminium intially for a price/availability reason.
The advent of carbon frames may have hoovered up some of their desire, but that custom steel frame is still seen as desirable by these folk, who now have the cash and the insight to get one.
As cycling has become aspirational, maybe even middle class, perhaps the new golf, so the market for steel and custom steel has been maintained.
...but...
This desire is confined to a particular age range, despite the retro appeal of steel frames, and so I suspect that the market for such frames is already well supplied. If you are one of the old guard, with a history, with a track record, with the kit and the connections, you can do ok.
But I suspect that it is a changing scene, and as the steel is real boys get what they want, the market for custom steel will contract.
Not a viable business proposition in my honest opinion, more of a hobby.
....and go on a carbon laminating course
AND FORGET BICYCLES...and work in motorsport or Carbon garden gnomes you will make more money. Even the Chinese are looking at reducing costs and to that end there might not be a lot of laminating going on soon just loading charges into moulds.
Building a frame is the easy peasy part.
Richard sachs has an ace blog which puts it into perspective.
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2012/01/20/downsize-the-fantasy/
I'm not trying to put you off but Its well worth a read
Do it if your passion is there or die thinking of what if scenario ...
Just make sure you put aside some of your money for safety net.
Work hard, be creative, not greedy and you should be fine.
Build bikes that housewives will ride - a potential market that can be tapped better as the current range are shite. Same apply to gentleman urban utility.
Urban utility but must not be too quirky or expensive with complicated parts like suspension or full suspension. Use steel but not high grade steel like 853. Something tank like but cheap-ish with a modern twist to it. Keep it simple but multi-purpose with plenty of "modules" upgrade. i.e. produce a base model that can be upgraded as required.
🙂
Why build bikes? How about bespoke 853 wheelchairs. Could be cheaper than the titanium offerings.
Otherwise, have a nice design and build that and see if they come. Or ask Paulus Quiros if he has any subcontracting?
dont be narrow to bycycles.. if you like manipulting tube and can braze/ weld then the classic motorcycle market is massive and we pay top dollar for new look alike frames the wheelchair market is equally strong and going to get much bigger
understand who wants what.. what the competition is.. how much you can make per unit and practice practice practice.
if you can braze as well as the metal work on my trials bikes ( see my blog) then you ll easy get work.. currently 6 months delivery schedule on most 'new' pre 65 trials frames/ sub frames..
pre65blogspot
You need a very specific idea of what you want to do, and a pretty high degree of confidence that what you want to do is something which will sell in the market that you operate. There are quite literally a handful of UK/EU custom framebuilders who really make a go of it, as Shand will attest - and he's certainly one of the most skilled builders out there.
The difficulty you need to overcome (assuming you have the skills to build top notch frames - which are not by any means easy to come by) is mostly one of perception. Such has been the decline of British and European custom framebuilding, and its resurgence driven by the US, that there is an ingrained wariness of UK builders with no history. There are a few have seem to be making a go of it (Demon and Paulos Quiros off the top of my head) but TBH there somehow remains an air of inferiority to the top US builders.
So you are up against that obstacle in the first place. Then to prove you can actually produce high end cycle frames with sufficient differentiation to actually sell them, or earn commissions. Then the wise words of Sachs as linked above about learning the craft. Then the practical aspects of actually running a business - assuming you want to make money from it.
I wouldn't say it's impossible, and I sure hope that you and others like you step up and make it happen because it would be great to see. But I have to admit that when I stared into that abyss I stepped back and took a different path.
A good first step might be to go to the Bristol Bespoke show in a couple of months' time and talk to people there. Or rather contact the folks exhibiting there after as I'm sure they'd rather be selling bikes during the show.
Tom at Demon Cycles said it took two years of practice before he felt happy selling a frame he'd made. There are plenty of very good builders around now.
Personally, I'd be more interested in the bespoke accessories associated with handmade frames - bottle cages, racks, saddle bags and whatnot. Things that those who like to personalise their posh new frame further might purchase for £20-200. Your niche could be 'not made in China'.
And then there is the subject of designing and making your own frame fixture,
http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/interview-will-from-hammoon-cycles/
Or buying one, Anvil Journeyman, Sputnik, Bikemachinery Hydra etc.
The Hydra is very expensive, but Richard Sachs uses one http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/380/Richard-Sachs-Part-2
http://www.bikemachinery.it/prodotti/hydra.html
Even the Bikemachinery Taurus is a lot of money for what it is.
http://www.bikemachinery.it/prodotti/taurus.html
Some peoples thoughts on the subject:
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/gjertsen-fixture-jig-austin-texas-563053.html
A sincere thanks to everyone, there is much food for though since my last post. [img] 
[/img] !
@simoncycles, if you have any specific questions, please get in touch. If you can make it work in this climate then you've got it made. For what it's worth, we've made some big changes in our business over the past few months in order to be able to not only survive, but to be stable in order to be confident we'll still be around in a few years time.
Don't underestimate the 'selling part' part of the business. You might be able to build 1 shit-hot frame a week but you also need to be able to sell everything you make. 'Build it and they will come' doesn't always work.
Do your sums, then do them again, then do them based on only selling 1/4 what you thought you'd sell and see if it still works out. Don't invest in lots of tooling. For on-off bespoke frames, setting up machines will take longer than working with your hands using files and hacksaws. Build 'lots' of frames and destroy them. See why they broke. Keep breaking them.
You will need liability insurance and that'll cost you approx £1500 per year. If you sell 30 frames in a year that means each frame will have cost you £50 in insurance.
How are you going to paint them? How are you paying shipping to the painter? £15 each way will put another £30 onto each frame.
How many frames are you planning to build per year?
etc, etc, etc,
These are the questions you need to be asking yourself....
[url= http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/custom_bike_frames-about_the_course-44.php ]Dave Yates framebuilding course[/url]
Worth going on?
Its booked up for about the next 20 years....*
*2012-2013
You can start by building a road singlespeed frame that takes 130mm OLN wheels so us roadies can pop in old wheels rather than buy the 120mm stuff that's out there.
You can get tubes direct from Reynolds.
But to visualise and understand the dimensions of the butts the American distriutor has some pictures
http://www.fairing.com/Reynolds.asp?subcat=reynolds&subreynolds=853
see also the Privateer article on bespoke frame builders.
Hi Simonscycles,
I recently found this interesing article/seminar by Carl Stron (Strong frames) on the Frame Builders Collective website called 'the buisness of professional framebuilding' which might be of interest:
enjoy!
Its already been said but you do need a USP.
A few Ideas:
Internally routed cables and Hydro lines. (Not unique) if done well incling brake lines could look very cool. How about the front brake line inside the fork leg? rigid obviously, BMX style. Im sure it could be done.
Intigrated seat post (again not unique) design a saddle clamp thats integrated, will mean made to measure but not a problem on a bespoke frame and people love things made just for them.
Smooth welds and oversized or undersized tubes.
Im sure other people have much better ideas but I really believe with a bit of thought and good design you could be onto a real winner.
I would certainly buy one with my ideas incorperated and would pay a premium for it. Im sure others would too.
GO FOR IT.
Pare your kit down to what you really, really need - and it'll also make you a better builder I think. You can build a perfectly straight frame with no jigs, just a bench vice and a piece of string. Filing miters by hand is a perfect way to understand how the tubes go together. Stuff like that.
Don't make road stuff. Roadies want a cheap frame with a bling paint job - unless you can do the paint job yourself, you'll be giving most of the profits to someone else.
Practice, practice, practice. Don't sell the first few frames you make, ride them yourself or give them to mates.
It's a hard business to make money at - but it is also incredibly satisfying 🙂
http://www.ufv.ca/MarCom/newsroom/bike_frame_course.htm
http://www.yamaguchibike.com/content/School
http://www.downlandcycles.co.uk/frameBuilding.htm
http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/custom_bike_frames-about_the_course-44.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTPHbOPJ5gA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2s02of9ReM&feature=related
Interesting, Downland Cycles have the same frame jig as me - for years, I've thought it was a one-off homebrew one...
Starrett have currently got some 32tpi hacksaw (frame tube friendly) blades at a very good price
http://www.starrett.co.uk/shop/warehouse-clearance/hacksawblades/
Your positioning of "good value, high quality" might not be enough to set you apart as that's what many offer and almost everyone claims. So it's more of a basis, something that people expect anyway.
As mentioned above it will help you sell, be remembered, get word-of-mouth, be mentioned (and pictured) in magazines and blogs (!) etc. when you have a strong identity, technically interesting/good AND unique solutions, maybe visually specific cues. And don't underestimate: it will be more fun if people think you are cool and really admire your frames rather than thinking of you as reliable provider of good quality/value (but ultimately boring) custom frames.
You should know (and stick to) what you stand for. Even if this limits your market you will be more easy to identify (and identify with) for those who like your niche.
I know this all sounds terribly marketing babble but I'm afraid it's probably human. Everyone (who's after a custom frame at least) want's to be individual and niche etc. but not that niche that you go "Look, this is my new Simon Cycles frame!" and everybody in the car park goes "Oh really? Never heard about it. Looks nice.".
No, even the least vain wouldn't probably mind to hear "Ah, yeah! Heard about them! But haven't actually seen one yet! Cool! Weren't they featured in so-and-so recently? They must really be *light, springy, stiff, ingenious, whatever you want*! And is it true that the frames are made in the cellar of an old mill? And I've heard that Mr Simon is a bike legend himself. Wasn't he racing "Fat Fells Fever" in 1987?/doesn't he always wear his welders mask, even on the bike... " and your customer can then say "Well, yes, I went over and his workshop is really in an old mill in the midst of perfect trails. No wonder he's got such a good understanding of geometry. What impressed me most though is that he used to be an engineer on an oil platform/in a nuclear plant and that he learned a lot of his skills there. That's also the story behind the little petrol can/radiation symbol sticker on the seat tube..." ...you get the idea!
It must still be authentic though. You don't have to go wild for the sake of it. But recognizability helps. Special and specific in some way. Your way!
Either that or....
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Kowal_Mike.htm
"...one of the UK's most powerful retailers - asking me how many frames I could make in a day !! "
Norris Lockley
Don't make road stuff. Roadies want a cheap frame with a bling paint job
as a cyclist (somebody who rides road/mtb) i would want a top quality tubeset and somebody who understands how a bike will ride when you change the O/D, butting profile, wall thickness etc. there's builders out there like rourke with years of building/racing knowledge who understand all this, it's the new builders who only have fancy paint and lugwork as the 'added value' so you have a couple of choices:
top quality framebuilding with an understanding of what makes a great frame and how it will ride.
bike jewellery for the easily led who want to look at it and post pics on the internet rather than ride it.
there's a market for both, you could of course do both and charge more 🙂
I used to work for a frame builder in Birmingham , that's has sadly gone now ( venom cycles) ... i was the painter there for over 7 years and while the money was crap i absolutely loved my job, riding to work every day and then painting fab frames and building them up and then riding home again 🙂 ......
Id go back tomorrow if they ever started up again 🙂 ..... and i used to do work for mick kowal as well when his painter was on holiday etc ....... havent seen him for over 12 years though ...
Bespoke Bristol
Robin Mather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiDNuH0xYEw
Demon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlKkldKZrYY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
PaulusQuiros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyGJfS69oI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL