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Compared to the Mary bars I currently run.
Jone's doesn't have a patent on his H-bars so not sure what legal standing any potential claim would have - you could probably go through a centuries-worth of old bike catalogues and find something similar.
I have a pair of Jone's bars, I like them but it's a ridiculous amount of money for essentially 2 pieces of welded aluminium tubing - Jones could probably kill-off the market for 'clones' by selling his at a more reasonable price or licensing the design.
He did license the design to Titec.
I'm not a fan of the bars personally, but that doesn't stop my support of the little guy over the douche bags.
Just like the fancy bell thread.
Wasn't Jones exposed as a bit of a douche in respect of how warranty support?
After much frothing over Mr Jones and his poor customer service it turned out the bike was both pretty ancient and second hand.
Hmmmmm. So it would appear that Planet X are not only selling a direct copy of Jones Bars but rubbing salt in the wound by calling it a Geoff bar? Sorry but that sucks. There is healthy competition and there is taking the piss. It's not ironic or funny. It just demonstrates contempt for the industry and a willingness to profit at someone else's expense.
Perhaps I should write a follow up piece to How to be a dick in the bikeshop??? How to be a dick in the bike industry has a ring to it.😁
+1
They’ve written it for you Sanny.
Given that there is no intellectual property covering the bar shape (there might have been once, but it would have expired by now), there is nothing wrong with copying the product. So we are left with Planet X/ On-one and their childish product names. Which are a bit of an industry tradition (Stiffee/ Implant/ Hand Job/ Pompino etc).
This is the market in action, a good thing no?
What is the purpose of such a handlebar?
Like, what sort of riding is this shape helpful for?
Well done On-One/Planet X for offering choice and a competitive price. That's how a free market economy works. Feel free to make your own choice and buy a bar from Jones. I chose to buy one from On-One and I'm very pleased with it.
Wasn’t Jones exposed as a bit of a douche in respect of how warranty support?
Not really - one person got him on a bad day with an out of warranty frame. I found him to be really helpful when I had a warranty Q, above and beyond expectations.
Disclaimer I own Jones bars and for that matter titec j bars
But I have to ask what the IP is with Jones bars that they and their Disty's feel they can make threats.
There were pre existing designs of very similar design but slightly narrower and perhaps of different weight tubing -I may be wrong but Jones were initially some fancy butted tubing which would account for the cost.....
But the only unique thing I see that hasn't been available for years is the width.
So is the width the IP ?
There is no IP in the design. What are these threats, and when were they made?
What is the purpose of such a handlebar?
A set of contact points for your hands allowing you to control the direction of the bike.
Like, what sort of riding is this shape helpful for?
Riding a bike.
The bars provide multiple hand positions which helps on long distance, multi-day rides as you can rest muscle groups. The sweep also puts your wrists in to a more natural position: stand with your arms by your side and form a loose fist with your hands, as if you were holding a bar. Now lift them up bending your elbows as you do so. Note the angle of your hand.
Absolutely love mine on the 29+. Stooge bars up for sale!
Hmm, is this taking the mickey? ...
Looks like it's taken from the same catalogue as this
Alpkit Confucious
The pricing of the Jones bars in this country is ridiculous, it's not even the usual dollar to pound swap. The standard butted aluminium version is $119 (£90) in the States and £155 here. So yes, expensive, but not to the same extent. Looking on CRC many of the standard MTB riser bars are in the £50-£60 range, no-one bats an eyelid at that, some Thomson bars are £100.
Thanks Whitestone. But your first two hilarious responses weren’t necessary. I wasn’t trying to take the piss. Just curious.
The latter part of your response was helpful in providing clarity, I understand now that these bars are for old people who ride boring trails (now I’m taking the piss). 😉
You're welcome 😉
There are very few "standard" bar setups for events like the Tour Divide http://www.bikepacking.com/bikes/tour-divide-rigs-2018/ There's a fairly comprehensive listing of "alt" or "comfort" bars here: http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/list-of-comfort-mtb-handlebars/
I'm not a betting man but I'd wager a lot of people would be using them (Jones bars) if one of the DH stars started using them, and winning with them. No doubt there's equipment rules preventing such radicalism.
No doubt there’s equipment rules preventing such radicalism
Yep, laws of physics probably.
Be very interested to hear what IP Jones think is actually being infringed. Very unlikely there’s any IP other than in a trade mark (i.e. the Jones brand). ‘Passing off’ doesn’t apply because nobody would think the bars actually comes from Jones. Patent seems a no chance with the amount of prior art, plus if the bars have been around for more than 20 years the patent would have expired. Design protection is a remote possibility, but if not registered it would have expired long ago. So, it just sounds like moaning...well done to competitors prodicing affordable versions. That’s how the economy is meant to work.
As Jones is from the US, his designs would not qualify for Design Right (unless first released in the EEA). Which is unlikely.
He might argue that the "loop" version is a new design giving rise to new rights. But the only one that might apply is Design Right, as to which see above.
And anyway, does anyone have any actual evidence of recent threats (as opposed to what when on years ago when he was applying for his patent which never got granted, see page 1 of this thread)?
Grey spoke
I assume you missed the alpkit thread when they released the same bar as on one.
I'd go find it but I don't have dracs iPad to operate the search function.
Is modern trail geometry is so bad we need ultra wide bars to get enough leverage to control the bike? 🙂
I have found it @trail_rat, it is here, thanks for pointing that out.
I cannot claim to have read all of it, but I couldn't find any evidence of current threats by Jones in relation to the recent loop version of the H bar. And I disagree with @biff on the "doing the right thing" point.
I think the name takes things too far personally. Not legality, I haven't a clue (it's not all about trademarks/patents). But just in terms of general manners/lack of class.
Good reading that other thread, though I did spot this:
Brant
member
An arrogant younger me would have argued that the Jones loop bar was nothing new and fair game. An older calmer me sees things differently.
I think the name takes things too far personally.
While I agree and mostly I'm playing devils advocate than taking a serious side in the whole thing.
I remind you that on this point
But just in terms of general manners/lack of class.
This is planet X we are talking about..... Not exactly kingsmen tailors are they.
Yes I read tha Brant quote on the Alpkit thread. So, one can infer that he has become arrogant then? The name really sums it up, “l’m going to copy your hard work and creativity, and I’m going to ram it down your throat by calling it Geoff” - insulting.
The other thing that struck me is that Jones had a lot more sympathetic responses 3 years ago, something has changed?
Some folk seem to be giving Jones deity status here. Was there anything stopping him from protecting his IP (if there is any, surely near-identical bars have been made previously) or suing for any infringement?
Lots of products get copies cheaply, it's a fact of life and laws exist to make it fair, albeit you may not agree with them. You could say every non-iPhone touchscreen phone is a copy of the iPhone for instance. Non round rings, is everyone buying the original?
It also strikes me as quite a different product/market, given the prices.
You could say every non-iPhone touchscreen phone is a copy of the iPhone for instance.
You mean a copy of the IBM Simon?
I'm not just being facetious here. It's a relevant point about IP and marketing/market forces.
Yes I read tha Brant quote on the Alpkit thread. So, one can infer that he has become arrogant then?
🤔
I have cycling magazines going back to 1879.
I'm pretty sure that any shape bar, or suspension system for that matter, could be found. Especially pre 1900 when it seems just about all cycling innovations were actually invented.
And Brant arrogant? Never! 🙂
Planet x have always done different types of bars. Other companies have started copying Jones and making money from it. There are catalogues you can order from.
Planet x are offering an alternative at a different price point. People won't buy Jones bars to try, they are too expensive but they might buy alpkit and planet x bars, find what they like then perhaps order Jones bars.
Jones bars appeal to different types of people as they are premium. Those same people, perhaps, wouldn't entertain a planet x bar on their bike.
The market is a large one, plenty of space for everyone but you have to adapt or become obsolete.
With regards to the name, perhaps it's in homage, rather than rubbing his nose in it? Or perhaps it wasn't brant that decided on the name? Or perhaps he thought f-it! Why not.
In the grand scale of things, does it really matter?
You mean a copy of the IBM Simon?
I’m not just being facetious here. It’s a relevant point about IP and marketing/market forces.
You are actually making the same point as me, unless Apple bought the relevant IP from IBM?
Reinforcing it really.
what IP Jones think is actually being infringe
Ah the self entitled American expensive ip
Thanks for the comparison with the Mary bar above. I think a Geoff bar might well be added to my next build.
The best comment I've seen here in this entire thread is that this bar will get many more trying, and realising a great bar
They may just catch on
Whats great about this bar is, the aero position.
Stick some Ergon grips on, use them to rest the elbows, grab the loop, and its proper aero, and very good control, well ya hands aren't on the brakes, but in the right circumstances.....
Brant - Most important question is when is the next pre-order open? Or when are the instock again?
Thanks for the comparison with the Mary bar above.
Playing around a bit suggests that, if you're coming from Mary bars, the lack of rise on the Geoff means you're probably/possibly going to need a longer steerer or higher rise stem to get a similar position on the grips.
Brant, any idea when next in stock?
Apologies if you've already said and I missed it!
Bumpy 😊
Can anyone shed any light on the "wolves did it" reference?