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Good point. No doubt price would come down with proper mass production and more competition, but it will always be easier to stamp out sprockets and derailleur cages than to machine gears.
molgrips - Member
...Well no, there is the (apparently, to you) small matter of £900 each, when you can buy two complete derailleur equipped bikes for that. Don't overlook that!
How about we look at 10 years of bike ownership? (Bear in mind Rohloff owners often do big mileages)
How much would you have spent on derailleurs, cassettes, and chains? Rohloff owner would have bought maybe a couple of good quality cheap BMX chains and ready to buy a new rear sprocket after having flipped it, but even if he replaced the sprocket, it's not expensive.
How about we look at 10 years of bike ownership?
How about we look at actual cash outlay? If I want a Roholoff now I'll have to put a grand on a credit card.
Lots of people live month to month without large reserves of cash to blow on bikes. This makes it hard to invest in expensive items with a 10 year payback - even if that's true.
I don't love the slow pickup so much. It doesn't really trouble me too much, but it is noticeably slow.
Slow pickup? What to change gears? I don't notice mine being slow to change. One click it changes each time, every time.
As a hub gear dabbler (I had an alfine 11 for a few years before it got nicked, been keen to try rohloffs when available) I would say-
-Drag was noticeable but not bothersome depending on gears, same sort of level as changing to nobblier tyres
-Weight was not so much a of a problem but weight distribution did bother me. I'd get used to it while I was riding it but if I went back to a 'normal' bike it always felt better. This I would say is strongly dependent on how much importance you place on 'nimbleness' and it bothered me more as my riding changed.
-Cost was less of an issue than with a rohloff but just changing cheap chains and rings was great
-General lack of cleaning and looking after was wonderful
For what it's worth, a friend who has been a long time rohloff user on a mile eating hardtail has decided that he'd like to swap it out for gears, pretty much for the weight and handling reasons I suggested above, so it's not just me! He's had the hub longer than I've known him (8 years) and it's on the second frame I'm aware of.
Even before the cost, it's very much a case of try it and see if the pros outweigh the cons for you as far as I'm concerned.
How about we look at actual cash outlay? If I want a Roholoff now I'll have to put a grand on a credit card.Lots of people live month to month without large reserves of cash to blow on bikes. This makes it hard to invest in expensive items with a 10 year payback - even if that's true.
All about what you value though isn't it. Plenty of people spend a lot more than that on credit on a car (or TV! etc.). If you bike is your primary (or only) mode of transport then suddenly the picture looks a bit different.
Well no, there is the (apparently, to you) small matter of £900 each
That's only slightly more than an XTR transmission groupset, or comparable to a Dura Ace one, not to mention the silly price of some forks that people seem happy to pay for, and they dont even last as long.
I'm not saying it's cheap by any means, but it's not considerably more than other high end transmissions, and when you factor in the longevity and reduction in consumable parts it's even closer, in fact once you add in a *single* cassette change it's cheaper than the SRAM 11 speed stuff.
Comparing it to a Deore or SLX groupset and complaining it's more expensive is missing the point entirely.
Disclaimer - don't own one, cant afford one, just trying to add some balance.
[url= http://www.rohloff.de/en/company/wanted_100000/index.html ]For a bit of perspective on what you get for your money with a Rohloff[/url]
Mine is 8-9 years old now and still running on the original cables, the outers are cracked in places so water and assorted crap gets in but it still works fine. I've just emailed Ison to get a cost for getting it converted for disk brakes as I don't think I can endure another winter with a rear v brake.
not to mention the silly price of some forks that people seem happy to pay for,
Now we're in the territory of retro justification. Your bike still needs forks whether or not it's got Rohloff!
Just to clarify - I want one, but can't afford one.
I'm not saying it's cheap by any means, but it's not considerably more than other high end transmissions
Yep - I didn't say it wasn't good value, just that it's expensive. And it is. Therefore you need quite a bit of money to buy one. You can pontificate all you want, but there's a bottom line.
If you don't compare Rohloff to SLX, then what do you compare? Alfine? Alfines have significantly more problems than Rohloff by all accounts, whereas SLX works just as well as XTR, it's just a little less durable and a little heavier.
Now we're in the territory of retro justification. Your bike still needs forks whether or not it's got Rohloff!
It's not retro justification at all, it's a comparison.
you were stating the (quite correct) case that they cost a lot of money, and that you'd need to stump up a lot of cash up front it you wanted one, but of course there are cheaper alternatives that offer similar function (gears) even if not the same package.
The same is true of forks, I'm stating the same fact, top end forks, Fox, BOS, Lefty etc. also cost a lot of money, and you'd need to stump up a lot of cash up front it you wanted one, but of course there are cheaper alternatives that offer similar function (fork/suspension) even if not the same package.
It's simply a purchase choice, and I'm just pointing out to all the people complaining that they are expensive that the same is true for other things you might *want* but don't need.
Making statements about people not having 1k to blow on a hub is all well and good, but neither will they have 1k to blow on a telly, or posh forks, or their car, but that's OK, because not only is nobody forcing them to, and cheaper options exist, and as always with their own set of compromises.
If you don't compare Rohloff to SLX, then what do you compare? Alfine? Alfines have significantly more problems than Rohloff by all accounts, whereas SLX works just as well as XTR, it's just a little less durable and a little heavier.
I'd say you if you must really compare a Rohloff to a derailleur drivetrain then you should compare it to one of similar cost and see how it stacks up for your intended use.
Same is true of Alfine, if you compared an Alfine to a derailleur drivetrain of similar cost I think you'd find the comparison less favourable.
But comparing the relative merits and pitfalls of IGH to derailleur is different to comparing on cost alone.
It comes down to what your requirements are and what you're comparing
posh IGH vs cheaper IGH?
posh derailleur vs cheaper derailleur?
posh $DRIVETRAIN$ vs cheap $DRIVETRAIN$
posh IGH vs posh derailleur?
cheap IGH vs cheap derailleur?
For some uses and requirements there will be clear winners and clear losers, and overlap in the middle, but simply to complain that a Rohloff costs a lot of money is missing the point, lots of things cost a lot of money, but that't not the only factor to consider.
Damn it, edit window closed!
I was also pointing out (a little tongue-in-cheek) that for some reason people think 1k on a hub is madness, but will sped almost that on other items (even a drivetrain which is essentially the same thing!) without batting an eyelid, it's all down to why and what you value.
My rear hub cost more than my car. But i only use my car for the school run when weather is rubbish as if its not i use my bike
As a side note i have 2 bikes one a 20 year old ss kona and one a lovely rohloff shand neither have suspension forks 😉
I'd say you if you must really compare a Rohloff to a derailleur drivetrain then you should compare it to one of similar cost and see how it stacks up for your intended use.
You could, or you could compare the cost of buying decent performance in hub gears vs derailleur gears. If you accept that Rohloff is the only hub gear suitable for proper MTBing, then it doens't compare well with derailleur gears, which is why most of us don't hav ethem.
Which (I think, can't remember really) was the point 🙂
Anyway - doesn't £1k for XTR include the cranks, which you also need to buy on top of your Rohloff?
[i]I always feel there's resistance to change amongst mountain bikers.[/i]
only for stuff that doesn't have sufficient "extra" benefits to justify its high price. It's just a much much more expensive way to achieve the same thing that a £40 mech and cassette combo will.
I always feel there's resistance to change amongst mountain bikers.
I don't - we seem to lap up every new thing they come up with.
"I don't love the slow pickup so much. It doesn't really trouble me too much, but it is noticeably slow.
Slow pickup? What to change gears? I don't notice mine being slow to change. One click it changes each time, every time."
No its the fact you could post a second class letter in the time between engagement of the drive teeth, its like having a sturmey archer 3spd all over again.
I've done over 15k miles on Rohloffs over the last 8 years & its when you work out what that would have cost in chains, cassettes, chainrings mechs etc that the cost per mile for the hubgear starts to come down & the derailleur continues to rise.
I'm getting over 4 times the mileage out from a £8 PC1 chain compared to >£20 for the chain on my XT equipped HT
[i]I've done over 15k miles on Rohloffs over the last 8 years & its when you work out what that would have cost in chains, cassettes, chainrings mechs etc that the cost per mile for the hubgear starts to come down & the derailleur continues to rise.[/i]
I've not done that sort of mileage off road, but I've easily done 10k on a road bike on the same chain cassette and chain-rings.
Weight was not so much a of a problem but weight distribution did bother me.
Seriously?
I have ridden both my 29ers as both Rohloff or single speed. I have also ridden them with & without 1.5kg of water and with & without 450g of lights and GPS.
In each case, there's a noticeable difference in weight when lifting the bike over gates, but absolutely no difference at all in handling. If I lean left, it turns left, if I lean right, it turns right.
What difference do you notice?
The back end generally felt heavier, less nimble and generally just a bit dead. As I said, I'd get used to it and compensate but going back I pretty much always felt the difference. If it doesn't bother you, that's great- it didn't bother me for quite a long time too, but once it did, it really did!
For another comparison, riding single speed achieves the same effect over a geared bike for me, but I'm not fit/committed/mad enough to ride that all the time.
Just an observation.
If a wheel feels dead, check the spoke tension.
felt like i was riding with my panniers on tbh.....
rear end would hang up on everything - compared to same bike with SS
so i put my rohloff on a fat bike where the difference is not noticable.
[i]If a wheel feels dead, check the spoke tension.[/i]
Or, make sure that you've not gone straight from a wheel with a cassette to one that's got 'comparatively' more weight built into it...like a hub gear 😉
Interesting. Riding my fully rigid bike at Swinley at any kind of speed requires some accurate handling on the jumps. Even for the small amount of air you have to carefully position the bike for the landing otherwise you get your wrists broken (or it feels like it). I reckon a big weight on the rear wheel might make that a little harder to do.
Over thinking things a bit there molgrips....
The difference between a Rohloff and a good quality derailleur, hub, and cassette is about 1 kg, so maybe spend some more money and get carbon rims and go tubeless. 🙂
The weight difference as a percentage of me 95kg+13kg bike plus kit is about 1% - not sure I'd notice that.
but I've easily done 10k on a road bike on the same chain cassette and chain-rings.
Irrelevant then 🙄
so what we have discovered this week.
some people own them and love them
some people own them and dont love them
some people who dont own them love them
some people who dont own them hate them.
and those are the only things we can take away from this thread. not very conclusive.
Yes, the spokes were fine! Why the determination that it's not the hub? As I said, I appreciated the advantages but over a few years of riding came to find the disadvantages outweighed them for me. If they don't for you, then fine!
not very conclusive.
No. I'm only arguing cos it bugs me when owners of some niche kit think they are the enlightened few, and everyone else is using the inferior stuff because they're brainwashed/too conservative/stupid/following the herd.
See also Moulton bikes.
you will always get that .... like the owners of toyotas and Vws who think they are the most reliable cars on the planet.
as i said earlier i actually have a rohloff ive used it on many of my bikes.... i think its shit in comparison to deraileur gears for general use.
its good on a winter bike though.
I'm Ro-curious for sure. Especially now I have a bike that can be fitted with Rohloff-specific dropouts.
if you were closer you could have tried mine.....
its on a 47mm trials rim so probably not gonna fit many bikes either mind... it used to be on a stans arch 29er.
I'm Ro-curious for sure. Especially now I have a bike that can be fitted with Rohloff-specific dropouts.
Why not buy one secondhand, try it, if you don't like it sell on for similar to what you paid?
The back end generally felt heavier, less nimble and generally just a bit dead. As I said, I'd get used to it and compensate but going back I pretty much always felt the difference. If it doesn't bother you, that's great- it didn't bother me for quite a long time too, but once it did, it really did!
I'm a big fan of Rohloff hubs - have ridden little else on my mtb's or commuters for the last 10 years - but I'd agree with this. On a hardtail it actually takes the weight distribution closer to a rigid than a bike with sus forks and even on a sus bike where it gives more of a rearward balance it's easy to adjust for - drop offs and bunny hops are fine.
However, swapping from a Rohloff equipped Nicolai Helius AC to one with a centrally mounted Pinion gearbox the improvement is noticeable. Livelier is probably the right description - it's not that it corners or descends any better but just feels a bit more fun I suppose. Currently riding 1x11 on a 29er hardtail and whilst the weight loss is great I miss the advantages of internal gearing.