Did the Southern Upland Sportive yesterday. What is it with people who ride these events - they will not take a turn on the front and are happy to just let you drag them along into a nasty headwind.
They were worried that if they tried to help you you would hit them.
Two minutes - you're slacking.
What is it with people who ride these events - they will not take a turn on the front and are happy to just let you drag them along into a nasty headwind.
It's because they're all mountain bikers out on a trip to the "darkside", and they're feeling a bit lost and needed a kindly shepherd to guide them home.
🙂
Just for a giggle, yesterdays tactic was to go off the front of my start group right from the start and see how long I could stay away for. It almost worked - 100miles of a 110mile event. Puncture and running out of energy 10 miles from the end is not nice.
First rule of any kind of competitive road riding; let the donkey do his stuff.
If you're daft enough to sit on the front, people will sit on your wheel.
Nice quote the other day; "Do you like fish?" "yes" "well there's a plaice for you up at the front".
You're a big scary lad; get them organised, shout a bit, tell them to come through, I do it and I'm little and inoffensive!
My one and only sportive ended with me towing a long line of roadies on carbon wonderbikes, on my £300 cannondale from ebay, through the last 20something miles (i misstook the sprint for the village sign for the sprint to the finish!).
Ended up calling back ever couple of minutes "are you dying back there or would you like a turn", answer was usual "dying", followed by me picking up the pace a bit further 🙂
Out of interest, do you people wait for someone to accelerate and overtake you to take a pull, or do you move over when you feel you've done your turn?
Perhaps your 'driving school' could also teach them how to ride? Either that, or they'd heard about your tirade about a cyclist slowing you down when you were driving and didn't want to get in your way?
isn't it your job to peel off, rather than wait for someone to power up through?
That would depend on who I was with and how the group was organised. Two lines works much better, but folk dont seem to realise this.
[i]First rule of any kind of competitive road riding; let the donkey do his stuff.
If you're daft enough to sit on the front, people will sit on your wheel.
[/i]
spot on, why waste energy when some guy who thinks he's stronger and tries to prove it will do all the work for you, he's bound to blow up before the end.....oh you did 🙂
yea, thats how it usualy works, but on a sportive when you pull over and drop down a gear, the guy behind does exactly the same!
then again there were a considderable number of them pushing up hills! Some roadies do have blood in their EPO circulation systems aparently!
Rocketdog - its a sportive it isn't competitive. If folk would work together they'd all get round quicker.
My idea yesterday was to go as fast as I could for as long as I could, just to see how long it would take to blow up. Not blowing up was never going to happen. I'm delighted to have got as far as I did before the wheels came off. 100miles in 5hrs15mins. The next 10 including puncture took 1hr45mins.
Smee you ought to pull off until someone else does the work, or have a proper dig and drop them.
I'm surprised that these events attract so many with this attitude, it would dispirit me for sure, it's not as if it's a race or anything.
I take it this was not the lead group?
Why did you tow everyone along then?
You could have made it much more fun by dropping back and continuously attacking.
Out of interest, do you people wait for someone to accelerate and overtake you to take a pull, or do you move over when you feel you've done your turn?
Last UK sportive I did, we got into a nce 3 (well, 4) up with a tandem. Given the pace that thing could go, when it came to doing my turn I had to batter myself before limply flicking my elbow and then jumping on the back wheel....
On the whole, continental riders are far more organised, disciplined and prepared to work together IME. There, they rely on the usual flick of the elbow and you're through. That said, next Monday I shall be eating wool at every available opportunity.... 😕
Two lines works much better, but folk dont seem to realise this.
Including all those inferior riders doing that insignificant little event in France at the moment.
cynic-al - I was having plenty of fun. Just cranking the pace up slowly until they started dropping back.
It most certainly wasn't the lead group, I am crap on a bike, just love riding the things.
BTW if someone looks like they are hurting I have no problem towing them along.
aracer - we must be watching a different race.
[i]continental riders are far more organised, disciplined and prepared to work together IME[/i]
It'd be interesting to know where that came from. I suspect a lot of the people I see at sportives are not clubmen and aren't used to working in a group at all. The fastest sportive I've done we went a huge distance in a group of Essex Roads boys, who were very well drilled. Part of why it worked I think was that their hard man was willing to peel off and take a rest while I pulled, even though the average speed reliably dropped 2mph while I was on the front. 🙂
Can all get a bit tactical, but the best way is to break up the size of the group instead of towing 10 people along. Also, in a big group, don't go to the back when you've done your turn, just aim to slot in about half way down. Small accelerations can drag the fitter guys out and leave those just hanging on behind, but the best thing to do is sit up after your turn, and shout at the ****ers; once you've taken on that gobby leader role it's amazing how the psychology kicks in.
Sitting half way down the group and allowing a gap to form makes people come round you to shut the gap, and is a very effective way of judging who is sitting in and who is ****ed.
Use the wind; try to time your turns so you aren't doing too much into a block headwind, and don't be scared to use a mini echelon with sidewinds; another really effective way of dropping the slackers.
Keep a constant speed up any small hills; soon sorts out who can and who can't...
...and as Smee says, if you are a strong lad, there is much fun to be had keeping a group together, shutting the gaps yourself, gentle pushes to keep people on the back, taking longer pulls, we call it 'playing the sweeper'.
Every so often I think about doing an organised road ride but then a thread like this comes along and puts me off. Its not the TdF its a fun ride.
I don't understand this, you said [i]yesterdays tactic was to go off the front of my start group right from the start and see how long I could stay away for. It almost worked - 100miles of a 110mile event. Puncture and running out of energy 10 miles from the end is not nice.[/i]
So did you pull people along for the last 10 miles when you were knackered. And surely no one was on your wheel for that horrible descent from Green Lowther.
I did this event too yesterday and about 20 odd minutes faster than you and that included going at my pals slow pace for the first 50 miles. Any group I was in I did my turn, peeling off to the left when I wanted someone else to come through. Of course I had people hanging on my wheel but it doesn't bother me. I'm quite happy if some exhausted rider wants to take an easy ride for a bit. The stretch up the a701 was hard going for some, I felt pretty good so was more than happy to help others along. If I had been bothered I would have asked them to do a turn, did you try that? And if id did start to irritate me I just accelerated away. If you're at the back of a group you don't know what's going on at the front, you could have tagged on with a group of mates and feel you don't want to push in to take a turn - if one clown is prepared to do all the work and not say anything then that's their problem.
Sportives are full of people who don't normally ride in groups and don't know what to do, it's not a problem
What I don't really understand is why anyone would want to sit on a riders whel that had a finishing time of 7 hours as you're clearly not that good.
It'd be interesting to know where that came from.
I don't know. I suspect a combination of more club riding in France, Netherlands, Belgium and Italy (the only European contries I have ridden in) and the fact that cycling is more culturally embedded than over here. The Belgians in particular seem to be uniformly great riders (and live up to their hard man image) - my favourite country for cycling so far.
I suspect a lot of the people I see at sportives are not clubmen and aren't used to working in a group at all.
All the joking aside up there, this is exactly what it is. Sportives are a relatively new invention over here, and so have expanded the "customer" base away from trational audaxers or clubmen out for a tear up in a reliability ride. Many of those who ride sportives are doing so as their first entry into "serious" cycling, and so they have not (or will never) progressed to club riding.
Club riders go through the age old training of learning to ride in a group, being instructed and encouraged (and sometimes shouited at) by the older members, and making the mistake of rideing with the fast boys out of a high paced training ride.... 🙂
I can't say I'm surpised when, during a sportive, people sit on one's wheel. I'm no group engine by any means, but I think that if you ride at a steady pace, you'll attract people who think your wheel is a safe bet. So long as they're not lunatic triathletes (who seem, universally, to be an absolute menace on the road), I have no real objection.
Gary_M you would appear to have missed the point, and half of my posts, completely.
aracer - we must be watching a different race.
Either that or you're watching the wrong bits - try looking at the TTT or a breakaway, or even the main pack when the hammer's down.
I'm always humbled by how much faster than me the average STWer is, just one of those things I guess. I'd never dare try to hang with you guys on the road. I've done a couple of sportives this year - Whitton and Dragon Ride - and was mildly amused by the number of people who seem to be under the illusion that they're taking part in the Tour.
[i]yesterdays tactic was to go off the front of my start group right from the start and see how long I could stay away for[/i]
Suggests you rode on your own for 100miles. Are you saying the group you set off with stayed together for 100miles then caught you. Out of interest what time did you set off?
Difference is at race pace the effort is so high and there are relatively few rider so that you spend little time on the front and two lines don't develop.
In a club ride/chaingang two rows is optimal.
I dont know - Is it because you cant read?
Optimal because you can chat to the bloke next to you, not for any other reason.In a club ride/chaingang two rows is optimal.
On the contrary, with a properly working rotating double line (as opposed to a sociable club ride double line), you spend less time on the front than in a single line. Surely though we're talking about people trying to get round a sportive as quickly as possible, in which case it is "race pace" in the context.Difference is at race pace the effort is so high and there are relatively few rider so that you spend little time on the front and two lines don't develop.
Sorry but comparing a sportiv to the tour is comical.
If you have say 20 riders then a second line shields the slower riders from the wind and so they have less of a jump to make back to the fast line.
I'm confused about this though. If you rode to Elvanfoot in 5:15 then you must have passed me. If it then took you 1:45 to do the next 10 miles then I must have passed you. Now I rode to Leadhills with 2 other guys and we didn't pass anyone either fixing a puncture or totally bonked. I did pass a guy on the a701 who I saw stopping behind me at Elvanfoot then didn't see him again - was that you?
So purely out of interest what time did you set off and where did you get your puncture.
Gary_M, you're over-analysing this. Smee is writing a dissertation on "Fabrication and Abuse as Triggers for Irritation in Internet-Based Communities" and is simply gathering material. 😉
As soon as the Tour comes on everyone thinks they're some kind of pro in some kind of race...
You are in a Sportive, it's not competitive. If some tired riders want to sit on your wheel then what is your problem. You will be going quicker with them on there than without. If it really bugs you drop back then accelerate fast, but why would it bug you?
I think you are getting confused with races, in which case if a rider can sit on your wheel to win then they will.
BigDummy I need some facts cleared up, I hate being confused on a Monday. I was also going to ask what he was wearing and what bike he was riding but I thought that was pushing things too far 😉
Completely agree traildog.
Does this explain all the dust I got in my eyes yesterday? 🙂
I agree about people at this sort of event not knowing how to ride in a group, because I'm one of them. Only my second ever sportive and I'm not in a club, so no surprise there. It is a sportive though, not a race, and I think more experienced guys have to allow for this - how else are novices like me supposed to learn?
I did 30-odd miles with a fast group of four (before mechanicals broke us up) and I think I pissed them off a bit to start with - I wanted to do my fair share at the front but didn't realise I had to ease off when I hit the front to stop everyone else needing to sprint. They kept me right after a while and we settled into a cracking rhythm. Most enjoyable!
The end was brutal, although I've done most of the route before I didn't acknowledge quite how steep the end was. Ended up a whisker under 6 hours - was happy for a minute until someone told me someone had posted 5 hours 6 min!
5h 6mins - thats an incredibly time in those conditions.
I set off between 9:15 and 9:30, not entirely sure exactly as I just went when I was ready to avoid getting cold. Got puncture just after the start of the red tarmac stuff of the climb to Leadhills. Decided to shelter out of the wind after a couple of mins as i was snapping tyre levers trying to get the tyre off.
Was riding a Bianchi 928 and wearing a black gilet.
Outrageous, isn't it?
BigDummy:
"Out of interest, do you people wait for someone to accelerate and overtake you to take a pull, or do you move over when you feel you've done your turn?"
What should you do? The fast group I rode in, we all took turns in turn, so I didn't really move over. Couldn't really tell if anyone else was, but it didn't feel like it. Had a lot to concentrate on, so may have missed it! I could get right into that - the smooth speed we were doing was great and it never felt like a stretch, just nice and relaxed but way faster than I'd have done on my own.
You should peel off when you are done.
Smee - MemberDid the Southern Upland Sportive yesterday. What is it with people who ride these events - they will not take a turn on the front and are happy to just let you drag them along into a nasty headwind.
Learn to track stand and wait - works for me!
cynic-al - MemberYou should peel off when you are done.
He did say peel, didn't he? 😆
Well I left at 9:10, so should really have passed you between Elvanfoot and Wanlockhead. You weren't the guy who's saddle bag fell off were you.
Nope.
it was dusty and they couldn't see you?
cycling weekly seems to have taken on the mantel of Sportives mag for the masses so it probably about thime they did some basic "how to ride in a bunch" technique type stuff rather than constantly bang on about hill climbing, cadence and gears.
That was the whole purpose of having club runs and split race categories (3/4 and E/1/2) so that the 3/4's can learn the technique required to sit in a fast moving bunch and by the time they move up to 1/2 they have the necessary fitness and experience not to bring the whole lot down in a clash of carbon. Spotrtive being a relatively new thing over here, most people riding it aren't from a club background.
Try talking nicely to them and explaining the basics of what you're doing - it may take a few goes to get the message across but most people should get the idea fairly quickly.
Clearly the problem for smee is that he doesn't know what he's doing either so how can he instruct people in group riding. Other than just thinking to himself 'I wish these lazy good for nothing wheel sucking batards would read my mind and take a turn at the front' he didn't appear to do anthing to help. Of course had a he bothered to say 'can someone take a turn here please' then he couldn't have posted about it on here as he would have been in harmony with his fellow riders. Communication is key.
Sportives. Hmm interesting observation. In UK these are run as non competitive, and IIRC one last year was ousted by the UK cyclosportive organisation, or whatever it is called as the event was publishing results in a time order, i.e saying who came 1st, 34th etc.
However, here in France, they are fully competitive. I did one in beginning of June, 150km 3500m of climbing and the winning time was 4 hours 12 minutes....to me, that's 4th cat road race pace at the minimum!
The Marmotte awards placings overall and on an age category basis.
The UK ones, are IME relatively way overpriced, relatively poorly marshalled, and generally populated by lots of Timothy's on their £3000 Pinarello's. One good example being a friend doing one down south and overtaking a bloke on a full dura ace prince complaining that the hill they were going up was really hard, at which point my mate pointed out that he was in the big ring....
Also IME , I've joined a road race club over here, and have done quite a few sportives here in the last 6 months, and I honestly don't think that the riding 'discipline' is any better, than in the UK sportives I've ridden. Only difference is that the french don't get het up about it, and don't go, oh the English ride much better than us, we're rubbish' they just accept some people are crap at riding in a group, and DON'T TAKE THEMSELVES OR OTHERS ANTICS TOO SERIOUSLY!
My old road club in Sheffield, sounds like it's at risk of falling apart because some people (newcomers in last 2 years or so) have come in and are really trying to lay down the law on riding as a group etc,literally shouting at people and causing arguments at all the meetings. OK you need some rules and some etiquette, but at the end of the day: IT'S ALL FOR FUN.
[i]My old road club in Sheffield, sounds like it's falling apart because some people... [/i]
[hijack]What club is that, just out of interest? Always like a bit of local goss 😀 [/hijack]
I couldn't possibly tell you, you might be in Rutland.
Are all roadies a bit prissy or is just this thread? Doing my 2nd proper road ride this weekend but if there is going to be so much squeeling I may not bother.
I am mugsys_m8, so its the *other* one then? Hehe.
mugsys_m8 what is your issue with 'Timothy's on their £3000 Pinarello's'? If someone can afford a nice bike but isn't a very good rider then who cares, apart from you obvioulsy. Seems quite a bitter comment. What price of bike is acceptable to you for not very fit riders to buy?
[i]Are all roadies a bit prissy[/i]
You know when there is a STW thread about whether a rider descending a piece of singletrack should give way to someone climbing it? And it goes on for 3 pages of increasingly hysterical abuse? And some people suggest that anyone riding to a safe breaking distance is a homosexual? And the people who like climbing hills claim that people who prefer descending them share too much DNA with crayfish?
This is the road equivalent of that very same thread. 😀
......you forgot "all carbon frames break and are rubbish"
Gary_M I'm sure you are a good bloke but you are getting a bit carried away fella. Its not like the OP called his thread "Gary_M is a knob".
Have a sit down pal, they're just bikes.
[i]What price of bike is acceptable to you for not very fit riders to buy? [/i]
If you spend more than £1,500 on a road bike and really aren't any good then mockery almost inevitably follows, surely? Calculating the acceptable [i]bike price:talent ratio[/i] is a similar exercise to calculating the acceptable [i]body fat:coverage of swimming costume[/i] ratio. You may think you look lurvely in that teeny-bikini, but everyone else is yelling "thar she blows".
"Clearly the problem for smee is that he doesn't know what he's doing either so how can he instruct people in group riding. Other than just thinking to himself 'I wish these lazy good for nothing wheel sucking batards would read my mind and take a turn at the front' "
Its like you know george 😀
[i]What price of bike is acceptable to you for not very fit riders to buy?
If you spend more than £1,500 on a road bike and really aren't any good then mockery almost inevitably follows, surely? Calculating the acceptable bike price:talent ratio is a similar exercise to calculating the acceptable body fat:coverage of swimming costume ratio. You may think you look lurvely in that teeny-bikini, but everyone else is yelling "thar she blows". [/i]
+1
I'd love one of those Planet X pink roadies, but by God, you'd have to be ****ing good to ride it...
...or have quite a thick skin. 🙂
mcboo amazing contribution to the thread, well done. it's almsot as if you were smee in disguise.
[i]Gary_M I'm sure you are a good bloke[/i] clearly you know nothing about me.
Trail_Rat - you taught me everything I know.
Gary_M - you really do need to learn to chill. Its only a bike ride. I ride my bikes for fun and had lots of fun yesterday.
lol at Smee and irony of above post.
its probably more to do with what/how they are used to riding than anything else - i've ridden with clubs and groups, and all of them use different methods for changing from the elbow to take 2min stints at the front to peeling off when you have had enough. i've also ridden with chaps who do through and off, but come to the front from being at the back, which didn't make sense to me.
i think its best to have a quick chat about what/how you are going to change over otherwise you won't know.
as an aside, was the course any good? i considered doing it but went mtb'ing instead.
'how else are novices like me supposed to learn?'
You could try some early season 'Reliability trials' you could say they are a cheap low key sportive. The main difference will be that the majority of the riders will be clubmen. Don't let that put you off, early season they should be pretty chilled out, but you will learn to ride proper good in a bunch with those guys.
Reliability Trials are only about a fiver and are common place.
Though sportives and reliability trials are nothing like 'racing' in a bunch, when it's tight and fast you can't even see the horizon it's freaky I tell you.
The course is pretty good, but some of the road surfaces aren't the best. The descents down to Mennock and from the top of Talla are the highlights. I hate the link road with a passion though.
I'll give you this Smee, you always give good thread.... 😉
[i]as an aside, was the course any good?[/i]
Pretty good in general, couple of hard slogs - st marys loch to moffat and up the a701. Finish was stunning, hail and emergency blankets were added bonus 😉
Best bit for me was climbing the Devils Beeftub - awesome climb.
Would I do it again? Maybe.
Genius thread. Rolling with laughter here. It's just missing glupton really, I do miss his/her comedy road comments.'ooh I'm concerned about altitude sickness on the Marmotte' and so on.
im somewhat baffled by the op. when im on the front if i get tired i peel off and join the rear. then the person behind sets the pace and this continues.why didnt you just drop out of the front and move to the rear ?
All the ways of bunch riding are valid. I rode with some roadies in France the other week, on that ride the second man came through, my last club was pure chain gang i.e constantly rotating, my first club used to do a stint and pull off.
On all occasions it was done naturally without a word being spoken.
Why didn't I drop off the front and slow down? Easy, I was riding at the pace I wanted to. I wasn't wanting a tow, just wasn't to pleased at others helping themselves to a tow and sitting two inches of my rear wheel.
AndyP - there were plenty folk suffering the effects of altitude sickness on the way up the Galibier...
if you cant be arsed with fannies on sportives should get your arse to a decently sized audax.
Were certainly no idiot riders on the 300k audax me and smee did (except smee, me and the guy on the recumbent) although that may have been the 16000ft of climbing involved that put most idiots off !
8 quid for 11 hours riding - no marshals - no broom wagon - no support .... mens rides - like it used to be in the early days of the tour !
400 and 600s are next on the cards for us as 200/300 conquered.
Guy riding LEL shortly rode me and my mate off his wheel on the lecht(200k in) but im sure he wasnt shouting wheelsucker as we died on a climb - we tried to work when he let us but he was just super strong
Why didn't I drop off the front and slow down? Easy, I was riding at the pace I wanted to. I wasn't wanting a tow, just wasn't to pleased at others helping themselves to a tow and sitting two inches of my rear wheel.
if your on the front and you want people off your wheel ... ride erratically ...
do this with anyone beside or infront of you and i guarantee you will end up in a ditch !
You could slam the brakes on and point to the pretty windmill, a la London to Brighton.
I've no problem with Timothy's on their £3000 Pinarello's. It was merely an observation. (says little punter me who has just splashed out on a custom carbon frame) Just like another observation to me that the more (to me) annoying contigent are on the more expensive bikes. Just like my observation that in winter, most old boys on a steel frame with mudguards and good sized flappage will be a well disciplined rider. Like I said IT'S JUST FOR FUN.
Finbar: I always thought the Rutland vs Other inter club banter was just like the old kids drama: Jossie's Giants!
This thread is why I don't;
a) belong to a road club
b) do sportives...
[i]You could slam the brakes on [/i]
If you want to expand your knowledge of swear words and put downs this is an excellent way of doing it. Worked for me anyway.
When I started group roadie riding and hit the anchors hard whilst up front, the entire group rode past me and each one took the time to explain to me the error of my ways in a very colourful manner. Very educational.
.............puts me off ever riding a road bike, ever.
I woud find it frustrating....when you know if everyone does their turn then (i) it's less boring (ii) you get to chat to folk) (iii) it's more satisfying (iv) speed increases significantly.