[Closed] Is it time we start to do something about the classified?

Premier M's only ?, not sure, Subs Only, maybe.

But if anything is done, it will probably be ad fees.

I'm unsure as to what the original spirit of the classifieds was when it was set up, but if people are just hammering it as an additional outlet for fulltime wheeelin and a deeealin, then thats a pity, imo.

Think I may have used it once, may be twice, and always want to [i]donate[/i] as thats what I think you should do, but having the choice to pay or not is good, as if it doesn't sell, it hasn't cost you.

Although I'm a P-Sub, I'm grateful to STW for providing it, even if I hardly use it.

ad fees work for me too...

How about a threshold of say more than 100 posts? Obviously wouldn't stop the determined seller only types but may weed out the casual sellers.

I imagine ad fees are the only way something will ever happen. As it seems the powers that be are not prepared to sort out anything for free, such as a rep system like a million other boards such as HKUD, OCUK and even Bike Radar to an extent use....and why should they I guess.

If they did have a fees system maybe it could work like this:

WTD = Free
FS = £1.50 and maybe 50p for every repost.

STW would probably make more money off this than the mag 😉

Quite like the idea of a rating system but that could be a pain in the ar$e as could be misused.

Limiting to premier users means that it would be less used as alot of folk would not pay for it. If STW start charging folk then it will lose its appeal for selling stuff for a cheap price (compared to EBay) and also look for a bit of protection etc.

I think it works this now tbh, just sometimes a bit of a gamble! If its an expensive item I would only buy from a 'regular' but have taken a punt on others and worked well so far.

Like DroFluf's idea, if someone is posting 30 items a month, for sale, then its not exactly someone just clearing out their old parts and spares, is it.

I'd prefer not to see fees, but as with so many things, it may all be dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

Perhaps >30 ads in a month, and a fee is required ?....

In my experience of running a car based forum with 20k plus member, putting charges on the ad's simply reduces the volume of stuff to buy which isn't good for those of up working on budgets. By far the best solution is introducing a min post's limit and perhaps having to of been a member for 3 months or similar before being allowed to trade.

If the staff or mods were that bothered about it then it would be the work of 5 minutes to find out who the trade sellers were, and to warn them, or request they make a trade payment etc.
It doesn't bother me if people only want to post on the classifieds, not everybody wants to contribute to the inane noise on the other forums, or has the time to do so.
Like everywhere else, it's buyer beware- if you want to buy something, you assess the risk and act accordingly.

Juan, I would hardly think that who is using the classifieds would hardly affect you.

I used to fun them quite decent but looking on classifieds last night there were lots of posts with no replies. Getting harder to sell stuff and my wanted ads aren't getting many replies.

If the staff or mods were that bothered about it then it would be the work of 5 minutes to find out who the trade sellers were, and to warn them, or request they make a trade payment etc.

Which is what I do not understand. They could be making a bit of money out of this for relatively little time outlay.

What or who has upset you Juan?

I have noticed that there seem to be fewer and fewer replies on both for sale or wanted. Maybe people are either skint or so minted that they only buy new then can't be bothered to sell.

I say it every time. The STW people almost certainly have no interest in changing the classifieds because if they do in any way that makes it look like it's managed then it'll inevitably be followed by a storm of complaints to them when/if people get scammed/aren't happy with a deal/condition/etc. - Just look how much people complain that ebay does nothing to stop it happening. ST is a mag with a website (which admittedly now does offer some additional content) - they're not in the business of running a classifieds service.

A minimum posting limit might work but would also likely mean a lot of dross (even more!) being posted.

+1 for Vinney, easy enough to find the culprits. Maybe a sticky at the top with a more robust warning?

But, as he says, caveat emptor, surely we're all big kids and can look after ourselves.

This search for a mythical market-place of good honest folks, you could leave your front door open in my day nostalgia is going nowhere, if we all behave sensibly then the classifieds is a fantastic resource just as it is.

Just my two pence worth,

APF

I've got some great bargains from people that only post on the classified (a certain Cove, you may remember Juan, plus the lovely brakes on that Handjob).
I think they're ok as they are. ie. A good place to buy and sell bike bits.

There are plenty of people who are obviously doing it as a cottage industry, breaking a lot of bikes. I'd love to know how and where someone sources that many bikes in their free time 😆

Nevertheless, the big issue for me is the number of people who are taking the mickey - I don't buy that much on the classifieds, but I've had 3 problems with things from the classifieds - 2 items not as described, one taking weeks to be posted. I reckon that's easily a 10% problem rate, and it's put me off using the classifieds - the price saving doesn't outweigh the extra risk.

The only thing I can see sorting it out is some kind of feedback system. Even a reply of "yep, I've got it" from purchasers is better than nothing, but it needs to be policy (and therefore universal) to be of any use.

Insisting on payment for ads, subscriber only (and therefore having address data) etc. is of little impact. The kind of sums people get ripped off for on here are pretty immaterial from a legal point of view, so holding addresses on file is of little use.

If the staff or mods were that bothered about it ...........

The more people that post - whether it be the classifieds or main forum - the more page views are generated for the site
The higher the page views, the more advertisers pay for ads

I'm sure it's not that simplistic but it's something like that

The higher the page views, the more advertisers pay for ads

I suspect you'd be suprised at just how little revenue ad views generate. Click through which generate sales typically get more but it's not going to make you rich...

Jamie. But as I posted, perhaps STW didn't set it up for revenue, but rather to attract people to the site (commercial ads on the pages).

Also, additional income streams may bring with it additional admin, etc, which could snow-ball that part of the site into a full-on commercial selling site, which is not what I thought was the idea behind the classifieds.
😉

I like them the way they are - had pretty good experiences so far. I do check user histories more now than before as there have been a few scammers, but like others have said, we need to take responsibility ourselves instead of pushing for more nanny state regulation.

Minimum post level is a silly idea.

And FWIW, I think that the economic climate has affected the classifieds - people are trying harder to sell their stuff for more and similarly expecting to buy things for less.

I'd spend £3 if I could make £900 back on some mug.

Would STW guarantee or be in a legal minefield if they opened the classifieds to only premier users?

If I was a thief (not all thieves are thick with spelling issues you know) I'd register for a premier account, knock out a few posts then scam.

Lets face it, IWH royally ****ed over a lot of people didnt he? He didnt type 'for sel m8 santa Cruise hekler' did he? 🙄

I'm with DezB on this one, you just have to use common sense. I've only had one real problem and because the seller had very little history (even though his email/web link was fitness and MTB coaching AND local to me) I had the sense to use Paypal (non gift) and eventually got my money back.

Which reminds me, I must make a donation as I've got a few bits to sell as it's much better than fleabay.

Edit

Minimum post level is a silly idea.

From what I remember the Classifieds were set up so that your no longer needed bike stuff could be moved on to someone else. It isn't meant to be used as a means to shift on vast quanities of stuff to make money. I have used it a few times and have picked up some good stuff to complete builds.
I would have no problem though of there being a 5% buyers/sellers payment into Singletrack.
It does though seem to be getting abused by some, but you don't have to buy anything!!

Check the history, if its classifeds posts only or very few previous posts then I'm very careful.

Does seem to be alot of very overpriced 2nd hand stuff lateley.

I suspect you'd be suprised at just how little revenue ad views generate

no I wouldn't

it's still all about how many members/views/click through's a site has that gives it all sorts of advantages over a site with a couple of dozen members, whether that be directly financial or just 'league table' stuff

Only if their aim is to make the website successful really - I'd say that the mag is still very much the priority.

Buying on the internet, whereever, however is always going to be buyer beware - just use common sense.

I use all sorts of forums, and I find this classifieds section the most awkward, due to how the posting system works. Every other forum I use, uses the typical newest post to top.

You have to remember, it's not all about sellers, the buyers miss out as well. If fees were introduced then people would just sell elsewhere, which means others may miss out on bargains or hard to find items.

As an example, I have put a few multi item for sale ads up here and I think I've sold one item, yet the rest have sold easilly on ebay. But on the other hand, as a buyer, I have had some good deals on here.

The only system that works well outside of decent moderating, is the minimum post system. That can have it's downfalls though. As an example, I recently had a rare car interior that I no longer needed and wanted to sell. I knew which groups would be looking out for it, but as I needed minimum post or membership fees to be paid to advertise on their forums I couldn't advertise it. Sure, I was missing out, but so were they if they were looking for a hard to find, rare item.

I'd say leave it as it is, but maybe sort the posting order out. If you're unsure about a seller, check their post history, and pay using paypal (not gift). I've had my fingers burnt a couple of times (ebay & privately) and have always got my money back through Paypal. With paypal gift you get no come back.

My 2p 🙂

[i]WTD = Free
FS = £1.50 and maybe 50p for every repost.

[/i]
+1 (for items over £10 say?)

I agree with Woody.

Yes, STW shouldn't start [i]purging[/i] the classifieds to protect the weak, etc, etc.

I was trying to indicate, that imo, classifieds are there for genuine folk, riding bikes, and wanting to sell what they have but no longer need or want, etc.

And that it shouldn't be for Joe the elicit bike [i]breaker[/i] to earn a living from, etc.

Not all of us are lucky enough to buy-right first time. We may not be able to send it back, so bung it on the classifieds, and thanks to STW for that.

That is all.

🙂

I don't get the OP's whine TBH.

Its easy to check someones posting history. I happy to sell to 'traders' since they have to give me cash before the goods depart. But I never buy from them.

Caveat emptor innit?

For those that take the risk and get bitten, that's their fault for not conducting the transaction in a manner that protects them.

Joe the elicit bike breaker

I hate that guy!

I'd say leave it as it is, but maybe sort the posting order out

It was deliberately changed because people were stupid with bumping their posts constantly and it just ended up being that if you didn't do the same, your ads fell off the first page very quickly.

exchange phone numbers with the buyer / seller and talk to them ahead of the transaction - puts the personal element back into it.

started sending stuff out to people ahead of payment on occassion if they have good history. that was they can check it over first. Seems to have worked.

But even then, why hate on 'Joe' the bike breaker.

Sure, he is making a few quid out of a no cost system, but then plenty of people are getting a decent deal on bits they need.

Not only that, when Joe doesn't sell all of his bits, he's still outlaid for the bikes in the first place.

I use the classified section for exactly the reason mentioned above to move unwanted items and help someone whose looking for something, yeah some people just use stw to sell but so what live and let live? They're not bothering me and surely it increases revenue from the ads? Don't see why it bothers people if you don't like the user don't buy the item simple?

Premier M's only ?, not sure, Subs Only, maybe.

It's the same thing and I think a good call.

I don't (and you'll see that I'm a 'P') as it reduces the number of ads available. I've had countless bargains from here over the years and I would like that to continue. OK, I have to be a bit more careful these days with who I buy from but that's a price/risk I'm happy to take.

I use all sorts of forums, and I find this classifieds section the most awkward, due to how the posting system works. Every other forum I use, uses the typical newest post to top.

The classifieds here have a high volume of posts. The posting system was introduced specifially to stop older posts being bumped to the top, either by intent, or by potential buyers registering interest. I can't think of a busy classified board that sorts by newest post.

If the seller gets some cash and the buyer feels it's a fair price surely thats up to them, what does it matter if the guy posts regularly or not.

as freeform says if you worried check there history take phone numbers etc.

Sure, some minority knobs have probably got the bike bits there selling by naughty means but thats not going to change by putting restrictions on the site.

I've recently sold stuff - I don't post much on the forums but do lurk. I didn't get any replies to my FS thread - everyone emailed me. Just because threads aren't getting replies doesn't mean that there isn't activity.

unfortunately since the original singletrack website went down a few years ago you can no longer check through the years of previous ads/comments to see how long any forum member has been active/trustworthy.

retrobike has a feedback section that works well. for the record, heres mine http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5798&highlight=scant

Premier M's only ?, not sure, Subs Only, maybe.
It's the same thing and I think a good call.

But why- what's the point? Drac, you don't even seem to use the classifieds- are you sure you're not just stirring?

Only 6 posts form premier members on the first 2 pages, and only 4 of those selling. Restricting would rip the heart out of them.

more recently, i completely ignore WTD ads and only consider FS ads from regular forum contributors....

the stuff in my garage is only for sale to friends or friends of friends

so, feel free to remove the classifieds forum, its already causing more harm than good. Real shame as it was a great little community on here a few years back.

I don't (and you'll see that I'm a 'P')

DOH!

Drac, you don't even seem to use the classifieds- are you sure you're not just stirring?

I don't do I not. Ah ok guess the items I've bought this year got delivered by mistake but thanks for going through all my posts for the last year.

its already causing more harm than good

Sorry, just don't agree at all. Like anything on the internet, if you're too trusting you can get bitten but it's a huge help to me and many others.

How many people have actually been scammed/ripped off on the classifieds?

If it's a large number then clearly there is a problem...and potentially something needs to be sorted...

If it's just that lots of part time traders are using them, then that's a different issue isn't it?... I can't decide if this is actually a problem or not...you can always choose not to buy from them?

I don't do I not. Ah ok guess the items I've bought this year got delivered by mistake but thanks for going through all my posts for the last year.

I said 'seem'.

So, what's the problem with the classifieds the way they are if you're happy to use them?

norbert colon I hear you. If you've been ripped off would you keep quiet out of embarrisment?

I wouldn't. However how many on here would make a noise/PSA?

Considering how easy it must be I'm surprised there isnt a post a week saying 'I've just been ripped off on STW'.

So maybe REALLY isn't a big problem.

I said 'seem'.

So, what's the problem with the classifieds the way they are if you're happy to use them?

So you didn't have a fekn clue then, who's was stirring then? 😀

I don't like the trade ads and I don't like those that only come on here to sell items. There's been the odd scammer but that'll be much harder to control. If a system could be found to reduce the traders and those that just use the forum to sell then I'd think it'll be a bit better.

However, given the amount who seem happy to use them regardless then should it really matter?

Its all common sense to a degree. If someone posts up a for sale on a tastey 'known' popular item and they only have a limited number of posts you use your head and pass on it.

How many people have actually been scammed/ripped off on the classifieds?

I've had a set of brakes turn up and be a completely different and inferior model to what was advertised. Eventually tracked the seller's phone number down from ads on another site and he wasn't interested in helping me out. They went on ebay and I got my cash back, but it was a load of hassle.

Had another item arrive significantly not as described (made it work approx 50% of what I'd paid for it), was resolved with the seller after putting a bit of pressure on him. From a guy who's a regular poster, isn't shoving 5 classifieds ads up a week etc.

I've yet to end up seriously out of pocket, but it's enough hassle to put me off using the classifieds unless it's someone like Ton, who is known for being a good bloke.

Interesting. I've bought and sold loads throught the classified adds here and so far (touch wood, fingers crossed etc), never had a problem.

Ironically, I bought a "BNIB Blackberry" from Fleabay last year and an unboxed s/h phone turned up (it even still had calls/contacts/txts etc in its memory). Now I understand Fleabay has all the protection (and more) being discussed here.

As has been said, Caveat Emptor and more, if it looks too good to be true.... I've started looking at sellers history now after all the noise on these sorts of threads.

Had a quick look at the sales before writing this post: Member since 07/09/10 selling expensive frame. first post to STW. I wouldn't buy that even if he were well known. I'd want to go and see/collect.

I've had some great bargains, using a bit of common sense.

But I can see the problem and think it could be fixed by a sticky alphebetacised feedback thread, and more of a culture of people posting to take the mick out of obvious dodgy, over-priced or badly described items. Like that muppet who kept posting an S-works frame for sale - when his post said that actually it wasn't.

It's pretty simple to click on sellers history and see if you want to buy . Recently I decided against a lovely looking frame due to seller only making three posts and being miles away. But just picked up some nice brakes from a seller on only his second posting but he was local for pick up. All you have to do is weigh up the facts if you don't like it stay away 🙂 😆

I'm a recent convert to classifieds, as I'd much prefer to give my dosh or sell my spare bits to someone who is as equally into 2 wheels as I, its perfect for me, plus, as many others have posited; +1 to Caveat Emptor, a feedback system would be a great idea.
That said, Ebay is faceless and insanely priced & I just don't have the budget to buy new for my carbon, ti or magnesium addiction.

Tl;dr : Feedback, adding fee's would create a chilling effect, deterring real riders from clearing their attics/sheds here, and something a breaker/retailer would absorb with ease.

Oh, and this is my first post on here, oddly. 💡

I had a problem with an item not being what it was sold as, seller was willing to take it back and genuinely thought it was as described. Didn't matter as I kept it for another project anyway.

Other than that I've been lucky and always had good service, well apart from one person who was very slow in posting out seems he still is but he's reputation is now well known.

I know it's a bit haphazard, but why not post on the sellers add if you come accross it..? I'm assuming proper grown up behavior from all here...

If you come across an add from a one post, new member, call it out in response. If the add is genuine, the seller can also respond, justify etc.

If you come across an add from someone who's 'had you over', call it out.

Might get a bit silly fairly quickly mind...

Seems to work on retrobike just fine...

I've bought and sold a bit on there and have had a couple of occasions where i've had to do a serious amount of chasing and research to get a result. Mainly because the person concerned was lazy / assuming than out and out scammage, but you shouldn't have to do it.
Ideally it would be good to have a rep or feedback system, but who would manage / monitor it?
Also how about when posting in classifieds you'd need to put your address aand contact details on the initial ad posting that was only visible to mods. But again who monitors / verifies them?
How about a posse of voluntary mods for the classfieds only who can perhaps take the weight of the true mods shoulders? I'd be happy to assist if it was considered worthwhile.

I think a maximum number of posts in a month would work, I've had some great bargains and the only problem I've had was the guy selling loads of Sram cassettes.....still had money back tho.

Not much traffic at the moment on classifieds, maybe they are all waiting for their tax bills..........money is tight lately 🙁

but who would manage / monitor it?

Why would it need to be managed or monitored?

If Surf-Mat's feedback thread is suddenly filled with "I bought some forks off Mat but the forcefield of awesomeness zapped and killed my chihuahua" then it can be reported to the mods. I seriously doubt the mods read 10% of the drivel that's spouted on here, and instead rely on the reporting system.

Surely the obvious thing is just to post on the thread if you are happy or not. That way a quick search of that persons posts shows their trading history with feedback.

Leave them as they are. I've bought stuff of there and it's generally worked out OK.

It's a 2nd hand market place so there will always be an element of risk. The factor or perception has to be taken into account. For example one person's "mint condition" may be another's "reasonable condition". Likewise "perfectly sercivable" may be "3 months till it falls apart".

If you don't feel able to cope with disappointment or can't employ the tactics mentioned above to mitigate any risk then don't buy from there. Easy. Why do some people always need protecting from themselves and the harsh reality that life isn't always a bunch of roses?

TJ, its all very well expecting people to post on the sale thread, but half the time they don't even have the courtesy to tell you they've received their stuff, even when you've asked them too.
Anything that requires someone to do something for themselves inevitably doesnt happen. (Although I ALWAYS do).

more recently, i completely ignore WTD ads and only consider FS ads from regular forum contributors....

Seems to work on retrobike just fine...

Well, lets look at this realistically and perhaps a bit cynically.

Retrobike is a hobby site that some fella set up in his spare time and I agree it's better but I suspect it has a different agenda. I suspect it generates a bit of revenue to pay for the hosting and maybe a bit on the side? Who knows?

STW is a commercial concern, pay staff, make money, pay for hosting upgrades etc.
All those extra users that register just to post in the classifieds are still registered users.

Advertisers like two stats (registered users & traffic) The classified generate a lot of the above at present.

Restricting (read improving) the classifieds will reduce both of the above and could hurt ad revenue.

Therefore I don't think it will change.

I could go more into the lifecycle of an online community and how quality traffic and advocacy can create more long-term worth than just users and hits but the world isn't ready for that yet 🙂

Advertisers like two stats (registered users & traffic) The classified generate a lot of the above at present.

Got the stats to back that up?

Got the stats to back that up?

And the descent into googling, quoting articles and general bitterness begins 😆

I've listed a bike within the classifieds section without being much of a contributer to the chat forum.

And whilst I love cycling, joining in on endless debates on the pleasures of singlespeed or offering my view on what's best 'this or that' won't interest anyone in the slightest.

So I'd prefer just to watch from the sidelines and when the time comes to offer STW members a good deal on a used bike via the classifieds before I list it on eBay.

A lively classified section is better for all than a closed shop isn't it.

TandemJeremy - Member
Surely the obvious thing is just to post on the thread if you are happy or not. That way a quick search of that persons posts shows their trading history with feedback

[b]Exactly...this is all it needs.[/b]

I don't post a lot here as I don't like the flaming\clickyness..but i read nearly everything.

I think it works well as is to be honest. I dabble in and out as and when I change my bikes around and on the whole its always been a massive success. Only been burnt once in all my time buying and selling so not to bad really.

I think if you try and make to many changes it will lose everything that is good about the classifieds. A feedback system id a good idea but as has been said before a simple leaving a positive note on the original add will do that.

A lively classified section is better for all than a closed shop isn't it.

Exactly!!!

Just show some common sense people and take some responsibility.

I came to this site because of the classifieds so I'd agree that it generates a lot of traffic - I was looking for something specific and found it here. It enabled me to build the bike I wanted for a price I can afford. The pompous attitude of the OP is one of the reasons I don't post more - first of all unless he is a memeber of STW management I doubt very much 'he' will do anything about the classifieds so actually all this thread is doing is moaning and bitching. I would hazzard a guess that there are many more like me - people who know that cynic-al is akin to Mr Burns looking down over the minions of Springfield, Surf Matt is awesome (or as I like think of him as 'the man you wish your man could be like';check out the Old Spice ads on you tube if you don't know what I mean), TJ plays devils advocate lots and doesn't like helmets, never ebay with whomever it was selling the stars and stripes sram stuff (I think it was psycle but I may be wrong so accept my apologies if I am), Ro is a little 'unstable' etc etc.
Whenever I've bought stuff I've tried to cover myself as best as possible, and so far have found it to be a great. Removing that because some people don't like what is posted is daft - its an open internet forum and you are not the self apointed police just because you write things on here. The tools to decide to deal with someone or not to are already in place; look at posting history and membership status, and then always get full contact details before money changes hands.

The tools to decide to deal with someone or not to are already in place; look at posting history and membership status, and then always get full contact details before money changes hands.

It would be lovely if that were the case. As I've said above, I've had problems with people who meet everyone's criteria of what makes a good seller. The problem is, it is no guarantee.

A feedback system of whatever kind, would be a massive improvement. I think I've suggested the same idea as TJ in the past, but the issue is that it relies on a critical mass of people leaving feedback to become effective. Probably the best way to ensure that is by mentioning it in the classifieds rules.

if you dont like it dont use it , its pretty simple really . im happy to use my wits and take a chance, if i wasnt id be paying full wack in the shops.

I don't really use the classified, so don't really have the right to an opinion. But I felt that it was wrong to broadcast that suspicion falls only on those who don't post on the main forums. Surely the clever scammer will introduce themselves on the main forums therefore developing more trust and reinforcing the scam.

Maybe a more concrete method of identification so if things do go nipples up you can trace the scammer.

The determined scammer is always going to scam.

firestarter

Have you forgotten about the wheels or have you decided it's not worth getting rid? No worries either way but I'm still looking for a set. Cheers

<sorry for OT hijack)

The classifieds here have a high volume of posts. The posting system was introduced specifially to stop older posts being bumped to the top, either by intent, or by potential buyers registering interest. I can't think of a busy classified board that sorts by newest post.

Well off the top of my head for a biking forum - SDH, high volume and newest post to top.

Then in terms of car forums of which I reguarly use probably 4 or 5, they are all the same, newest post to top. Busiest one as an example being SXOC with 24,570 members.

It doesn't stop people 'bumping' the way it's done here, it just encourage people to post a 'new' topic every other day, clogging up the server with multiple threads of the same thing.

doh completely forgot mate lol thats night shifts for you. i will dig them out and have a look at them for you and let you know the details.