Forum menu
I wouldn't be in a hurry to do this but... how about cutting a slot in the top wedge like on many FSA headsets? This will allow it to deform a tiny bit and settle into wherever it ends up clamping the steerer tube.
Might work, might not - I accept no responsibility if it all goes horribly wrong.
Ooh epic fail for On One, this will affect the new carbon 29er too as it has the 105mm head tube on all sizes also 😯
I wouldn't be in a hurry to do this but... how about cutting a slot in the top wedge like on many FSA headsets? This will allow it to deform a tiny bit and settle into wherever it ends up clamping the steerer tube.
It already has a slot in it. That's not the problem
[b]UPDATE[/b]
Just had a call from O-O.
I'm not the first person this has happened to! 🙂 Yay!
The solution?
The last bloke hadn't cut his forks and sent them back for a refund! 🙁 Booooo!
It appears that it's unique (so far) to new Rockshox forks only.
Basically there is no soultion. O-O are going to look into it though, but I'm not holding my breath.
Bugger.
But no more than I expected to be fair.....
Rubbish that eh?
So RS are making their steerers with a different taper from everyone else, or O-O are making their frames different to everyone else??
It has to be one or the other!
It might be a bit of both?
RS = longer taper
OO = shorter headtube + recessed headset top cup?
@ PP: Bugger.
Is 110mm for a HT not pretty short?
(this is coming from someone who is used to 130mm HT as standard)
Is 110mm for a HT not pretty short?
It's 105mm 🙂
If it had a regular top race, it'd be fine. It's the semi integrated race that's too low and causing the problem it seems. But nobody makes a top race with a 44mm cup size that's external (Not surprising)
Seems a bit of a serious oversight to me. Are they going to honour people returning frames then as they can't take Rockshox tapered forks?
If you are down in the South West you are welcome to see if my Superstar headset works with the fork. You could then return the headset.
Does the 1.5" crown race you've got have a taper on the lower side? Just wondering if you can sit another one on top of the existing one if there is a taper that will fit over the taper on top of the one already fitted to the fork? Bit messy but a solution until a thicker race comes out.
Does the 1.5" crown race you've got have a taper on the lower side? Just wondering if you can sit another one on top of the existing one if there is a taper that will fit over the taper on top of the one already fitted to the fork? Bit messy but a solution until a thicker race comes out.
Wow. I had to read that 4 times before I understood! 😉
No, the race isn't tapered, just the steerer, which then has a 1.5in section a the base and a long 1 1/8 section above the taper.
Looking at my pic I don't think there's enough 1.5in height below the taper to take 2 crown races....
I've emailed BETD about making some spacers or a new crown race to effectively lengthen the headtube.
Let's see if they can help 🙂
Quick CAD knock up:
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Would cost $7.37 each based on 25 made from 6061 aluminium in raw finish.
Pete,
BETD made or make a 44mm to 1 1/8 reducer, i was thinking of getting one for the lower cup of my Iron Horse to slacken it off. I would immagine this could be installed in the top cup of your 456 then a standard 1 1/8 external headset top cup pressed into the reducer.
You may have to machine a little out of the bottom ID of the adapter from BETD to accomodate the taper and i'd check the length of insertionn of the standard headset so that doesn't foul the taper either.
From memory it is the Giant AC on you would need but do not quote me on this, they were pretty quick in getting back to me when i was enquiring.
http://www.mountainbikecomponents.co.uk/items.asp?CategoryID=169&Name=Headset+Reducers
good luck
Rusty
As Brant has stated there is NO fixed standard for Tapered steerers. I did a lot of investigation, all manufacturers have a different take, however missed this one... The Carbon 456 16inch is a "geometry" match for its 4130 brother and therefore kept its 95mm HT.
It is unfortunate but this does NOT affect the other sizes or the 29ers.
SRAM forks for 2012 have the following tapers:
REBA/SEKTOR REVELATION = 108mm this will not fit the 16" 456
ARGYLE = 102mm and WILL fit.
For the 29" Frames
SRAM 29er for 2012 have the following tapers:
REBA 29 + SID 29 = 85mm and WILL fit.
As a solution we are looking at getting a +3-5mm Crown for our headset. Each Headset will have different heights and different crowns.
This is the maths for Carbon 456 16" with the Smoothie Mixer Tapered Headset.
Lower 1.5" Cup + Crown = 14mm
Carbon 456 16" HT = 95mm
TOTAL = 109mm
Minus the 44mm ZS Top Cup (-6.5) = 102.5
Grip point of Ahead compression ring = 107.5mm (THIS gets slower as the top cap and stem is compressed...
We are therefore arranging a series of +3/+5 1.5" Crowns to see which works best... Stevo
Can't you get Jack at the headset factory to make you some modified top caps Stevo?
You off out next week?
Top cap wouldn't fiddle with steering geometry.
dont think ill be one of these then!
Yes Brant cheers, I'll be doing 2x fixes 1x the crown for the ASAP. And 1x 44mm External top cap. The 44mm External will be useful for steel frame moving forward to tapered steerers too 🙂
External will be useful for steel frame moving forward to tapered steerers too
Jolly good.
You've heard about the tapered BB thing, yeah?
I'd just like to add my thanks to Stevo at O-O for the phone call and the explanation this morning. 🙂 Much appreciated.
I'll update if I have any more news
So the steel 456 is getting an update with a 44mm head tube.
I'm liking the way this thread has gone 🙂
Stevo, any chance these external top sections will be available separately to those of us who already have 16" frames with headsets installed? Would be nice to not have to buy a whole new £40 headset for the sake of one new part to raise it up and tbh I would be tempted to go with it now to reduce the amount of spacers I am running.
I assume it is just the upper bearing cup that needs changing to external so the rest of the headset is unchanged - ie same upper cover part, bearing etc?
Lower 1.5" Cup + Crown = 14mm
Carbon 456 16" HT = 95mm
TOTAL = 109mm
Hmmm. I measured my head tube last night and it's 90mm not 95mm. Unless I've measured it wrong that is. But that was the gap between the installed headset races....
I just measured mine and it is 90mm too.
I also just checked the geometry table on the on-one site and it states 105mm for the 16" frame. 90mm is for the 14" frame. I think someone has cocked up with the design/manufacture.
I wondered why I have been having to fit WAY more spacers than I calculated before I bought the frame.
On One - can I have a frame that has the geometry specs you quoted please? Really not happy that I won't be able to fit a tapered fork without a bodge.
Pulling up a chair now....
Biscuit anyone?
I wondered why I had to go get another 15mm of steerer spacers. I have 50mm of spacers in total which looks stupid. My steerer is about 200mm as it is from my 15" Merlin frame and I don't want to cut it as it will make it unusable in most other frames.
I also just checked the geometry table on the on-one site and it states 105mm for the 16" frame. 90mm is for the 14" frame. I think someone has cocked up with the design/manufacture.
Speaking to Steevo yesterday, it turns out the C456 geometry page is mostly wrong. There is no 14in C456 for a start..........
On One - can I have a frame that has the geometry specs you quoted please? Really not happy that I won't be able to fit a tapered fork without a bodge.
To be fair I think 'bodge' is a strong word. It's only a few mm in it and a modified crown race or an external race on the top headset cup will sort it.
I'm actually riding mine as is. There is a small amount of detectable play, but I've got rid of the noise I had with my own mods to the taper ring. I'm quite happy to let O-O work on a solution. These things happen and we all learn, yes? No point in me throwing a wobbler about it..... 😀
Given that the previous short term solution was a +3mm lower crown race a +8mm one begins to sound more like a workaround than a solution, tbh.
Who mentioned +8mm? I don't need that much!
EDIT
We are therefore arranging a series of +3/+5 1.5" Crowns to see which works best... Stevo
I'm hoping he's going to send me one!
EDIT 2
I think I understand now: You're thinking of the 5mm shorter head tube, yes?
[i]We are therefore arranging a series of +3/+5 1.5" Crowns to see which works best... Stevo [/i]
which was based on a 95mm headtube (again from his post) - if the headtube is only 90mm he'll need to add another 5mm to his crown races won't he?
if the headtube is only 90mm he'll need to add another 5mm to his crown races won't he?
See EDIT 2 above! 🙂
But no, 3mm will probably fix mine, and 5mm certainly will.
Although, agreed, he's 5mm out on the head tube length, well either that or it's me that's wrong!
Which is all very odd based on Stevos numbers above too
would it have been enough before you started 'adjusting' things with a file?
Yeah, I think so. What I've done is minimal, there's not much to work with! 🙂
Looking back at the pic in your first post it looks like the upper crown race is sitting a good 5mm onto the taper of the steerer, surely as you have suggested a modified top cup with additional spacing to house a external headset is going to be the best solution.
Have you heard anything back from BETD?
IFF the 108mm measurement for the taper is correct then the reason your modifications work is that the top bearing ID is larger than 1 1/8th so your bearing is actually sitting over the taper.
Stating the measurements:
Head tube: [b]90 mm[/b]
Lower stack (inc. crown race): 14 mm
Recess of bearing in upper cup: 6.5mm
This leaves us with 97.5mm (90 + 14 - 6.5)
Fork tapered section: 108 mm
ie there is 9.5 mm deficit - I'd like a few mm on top of that for peace of mind.
But - as the bearing is actually bigger than 1 1/8th then we can steal some height from the bearing depth depending on the split ring that goes into it that Pete modified.
To fix it properly you need to ensure that the split ring is not bottoming out or deforming on the taper. The ring is not the full height of the bearing so you can steal some height from the bearing fitting over the taper but only a couple of mm.
5mm may 'just' sort it but I would like to see 8-10mm to be safe.
Have you heard anything back from BETD?
Not a sausage. O-O are the bset bet methinks. 🙂
so your bearing is actually sitting over the taper.
Yep! But not by much, the taper seems to end in the space of the bearing, so the split taper ring in the headset is squased too tight between the bearing and the taper
Whatever the maths say, there's not much in it. Maybe production variances will have na effect between different forks and frames, but I reckon 3mm will fix mine, 5mm for sure.
They'll get it sorted.
One thing they could do to remedy the problem on new frames is make a new upper headtube insert (the bonded in one) that protrudes from the top of the headtube a bit more and is then painted with the rest of the frame.
Would then mean any tapered headset (eg the Hope etc) will still fit.
Edit: other factors are:
1. is the front end as torsionally stiff as it should be if the top tube is lower down?
2. It is still very annoying to have to use a silly amount of spacers unless you want to cut your steerer down an extreme amount. I was meaning to post asking for suggestions on things to use to reduce the mass of visible spacers.
On the plus side the lower top tube gives slightly better standover.
Do fork manufacturers make the steerer tubes themselves or buy them in?
probably made elsewhere but to their specification - hence the proliferation of (and lack of) standards
Would also be worth checking the tapers on carbon steerers before a solution is decided on as they may be even longer.
Sorry to drag up an old thread, thinking about getting the carbon 456 but have a headset Q for the experts. Currently got a standard 1 1/8" hope headset - will I need a new complete headset or is there just the 1.5" part I can buy and still fit "normal" 1 1/8" steerer forks?
I have just built mine up and when i was putting the headset smoothie into the headset, it was that slack i could nearly push it in with my fingers, all i actually had to do was tap it in with a hammer, and i mean tap, havnt rid this one yet so will have to see this weekend
UPDATE:
Stevo from On One has sent me 2 thicker crown races, +3mm and + 5mm, as he said he would. They're chunky wee things:
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5560787156_b6469ea2a0.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/5560787156/ ]IMG_1078[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr
Bike with standard crown race:
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5105/5560219839_861835caa3.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/5560219839/ ]IMG_1075[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr
Bike with +3mm crown race:
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5177/5560785200_dc0f98a5c9.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/5560785200/ ]IMG_1079[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr
I've just fitted the +3mm one and it fits fine. The headset has tightened down fine and there's no play at all in a 'garage test'. Sadly it'll be at least a week before I get to take it for a ride, but it looks promising and I'll report back again.
🙂
UPDATE
Managed to get a ride in yesterday and the +3mm crown race seems to have fixed the problem. 🙂
Thanks to Stevo at On One for the help! 🙂