[Closed] Great XTR Di2 article/review on cyclingtips

The mind boggles

Its like reading about a foreign country

auto front mech shifting!

A logical extension of the existing auto-trim feature, really.

Haven't got time to read the whole thing at the moment but I liked the bit about roadies acting too cool for mountain biking with their shaved legs and lycra!
Hahahahahahahahahaha! Etc.

I'm impressed already that anyone in Margaret River stayed sober enough to ride a bike...

auto front mech shifting!

A logical extension of the existing auto-trim feature, really.

This is the big feature that will lead me to handing over my money (although probably not until it trickles down to xt).

This is the big feature that will lead me to handing over my money

Really? When 1x11 is so much easier?

I'll hang on for the forthcoming wireless SRAM 1x11 set up, I think. Especially if they can come up with some sort of wireless Reverb and shock controls with it, which would seem likely given the SRAM brand portfolio.

Love the electronic kit.
I agree that wireless is the way forward. A wireless Reverb would be ace.

I'll hang on for the forthcoming wireless SRAM 1x11 set up, I think. Especially if they can come up with some sort of wireless Reverb and shock controls with it, which would seem likely given the SRAM brand portfolio.

this will be comedy gold *runs off to start work on remote app* 😉

It won't let you go small/small, but will let you go big/big?

Bit weird.

Seems you can do without the display if you're running 1x11 then, saves a bit of cost and weight!

When I had my 7 speed thumb shifters I could finetune the front mech as I wanted while riding.
Good to see technology does it now.
and for such crazy money.

I do like the idea of this but would wait to see when it trickles down.
I like the idea that you can unplug the rear mech for transport then plug it back in and it will reset itself.
I can't see me changing bikes for a few years yet so this may well be an option then..

Be great in racing if you can get your wireless shifters to connect to the oppositions kit... add in a wireless Reverb too for seat down, uphill big ring stalling.

But I suppose they have thought of that one already..

Not sure I'd want it shifting when I wasn't expecting it - sounds like a recipe for disaster!

I think that the technology element of it is just fantastic to see, although the worse case battery time when controlling the electronic shocks as well will put off some of the endurance marathon racers.

The front mech shifting is not trimming but actually taking away the decision to manually change from the outer to the inner ring, or vice-versa, by doing it for you based on what gear you're currently in and cadence, skeptical but can't wait to try it.

It won't let you go small/small, but will let you go big/big?

Chain catches on the bigger chainring in small/small maybe? or just insufficient chain tension/slack maybe?

iolo - Member
When I had my 7 speed thumb shifters

Get over it Grandad, this is progress.

;o)

molgrips - it doesn't - read the article - it can decided for you when to shift the front mech but only when you actually ask it to shift - so rather than having to think about when to change the front ring as you shift though gears on the back, it'll do a front shift at the best point. As in the review, people who've ridden it so far all seem to agree that despite initial scepticism, it works really well.

Great, I'll pop down the bike shop at lunch, pick one up.

I like that it gives an audible warning one shift before it does the front mech, although it doesn't seem to be an issue it's nice to know when it's planning to do a front shift!

I thought this was available on any Di2 system as long as someone has the Shimano programming tools?

So, if you were in the large, large and it front shifted. Would it dump you in small, large, or front shift and drop down the cassette to be in the next largest gear. (Does that make sense ?)

on and on - Member

So, if you were in the large, large and it front shifted. Would it dump you in small, large, or front shift and drop down the cassette to be in the next largest gear. (Does that make sense ?)

on and on, it wouldn't put you in large/large in the first place as it would have decided you can get the same ratio with a better chainline in middle/middle. But if it did it would shift you to the next easiest gear using front and rear simultaneously.

I thought this was available on any Di2 system as long as someone has the Shimano programming tools?

No, Fairwheel did a hack on it ages ago (on a mountain bike incidentally), but it can't do sequential shifting by default.

wireless is the way forward

Oh I can see a Di2 rear mech loving the lakes boulders & constantly wet trails in winter, imagine how you'll feel rocks clattering of the mech, Ohhh my mech fannying about worrying just like when you batter Enve wheels thinking oh have I damaged it.... never mind the cost of replacing it if you rip the mech of with a big rock strike.

It may well have a place with the elite race whippets to save a few seconds here & there but not hard core big mountains, imagine popping into your LBS & asking for a new Di2 mech of the shelf, not many bike shops will stock it due to costs.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for technology but what's wrong with 1x11, the biking general public are just settling into new bikes designed around 1x11 & now electric shifting is the new buzz word on the street, Ok for roads until it's really proven then see how it fares with mud crud & the great British winter & a bit of neglect.

^^^ agree 100% with Edd. Wireless seems like it'll just mean more things to charge, with no real benefit - running Di2 cables is phenomenally easy and can be entirely internal if the frame is set up correctly, so I don't see any real benefit to wireless. Maybe a bit of weight loss?

Next thing I'd like to see is swapping out the brake lines for electronic cables aswell - have a servo in the caliper to activate the brakes and just transmit a signal from the lever. Obviously running out of battery would be a bit of an issue though... 😈

LBS & asking for a new Di2 mech of the shelf, not many bike shops will stock it due to costs.

Half decent shop would be able to get you one next day

Wireless charging is also coming soon.

Oh I can see a Di2 rear mech loving the lakes boulders & constantly wet trails in winter

Whilst a rock strike will potentially bugger it (but you can replace the parts likely to get smashed relatively inexpensively), it'll be more suited to "constantly wet trails" than a mechanical set up - no cables to get gritty, and far more force at the mech to overcome crap in the mech/cassette.

Are gritty cables a really big issue? I've always oiled the inners and change them on every service.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile//s?q=shimano+mtb-road+inner+gear+cable

They hardly break the bank.
Change the outers too if you really want to splash the cash.

Does seem a bit of a technological hammer to a problem that 1x11 solves for most. I'd still like a spin on it.

alivio here i come!

Looking at electrickery in general, how's Snapierre's Electric servo controlled suspension faired for the last few years?? I've owned 3 lappys & great bikes though they were you don't see many of the electric suspenders out on the trails still after decent reviews, if it were that good it would of been on motocross bikes years ago.

Misspent youth riding them breaking bones! but loved them.

Are gritty cables a really big issue? I've always oiled the inners and change them on every service.

Not a really big issue no, but they're an entirely non existent one with Di2. My point was just to counter the "that'll be good in the mud then... 🙄 " arguments, the point being that yes, it will be excellent in the mud!

it will be excellent in the mud!

Heard Di2 is excellent for cross in the mud and carries on shifting when a lot of mechanical systems get clogged up.

just like when you batter Enve wheels thinking oh have I damaged it....

nope, never ever think about it

Heard Di2 is excellent for cross in the mud and carries on shifting when a lot of mechanical systems get clogged up.

Indeed, which makes a lot of sense - the motors are far more powerful than a cable. It's odd that people assume it will falter at the first sign of damp!

The rear mech alone is 400 quid. Bargain.

thats the RRP - £319.99 at CRC, you can pr-order and they will ship when its in stock, £15 off over £99 brings it down to £304.99 - so thats 25% saved already, more if you wait for one of the regular 10% off Shimano codes

That's fine then. I'll buy two.

OH £300 now that is a bargain 😉

I am sure one day I will have it but not till the price drops massively

in the world of £2.5k carbon frames, £2k wheels, etc etc its not priced out of line imho, price is the same as the Dura-Ace, and if price is a concern then you shouldn't be in the thread, you KNOW its going to be expensive, less so when it trickles down

Mechanical rear mech for a sniff under £400 so XTR Di2 is a bargin 😉

http://www.ubyk.co.uk/campagnolo-super-record-11-speed-rear-mech/13771?gclid=CMLPjcLg8sECFfLJtAodnEkA8g

I won't be spending that money for it but as it comes does in price/the range, I'll definitely be considering it for 1x

this reads like a what wheel size thread already.

Rear mech, cassette, shifter, display, chain, battery + charger will be about £800.
Add cranks and a chainring.

It's not far removed from where XX1 started out.

Non-Di2 XTR is a snip!

it's expensive enough running a full xx1 set up changing chains regularly & the odd cassette never mind going electric, I wonder if the majority of those that are posting positive comments dash out & stump up the roughly lets say a grand to have it on there bikes ?? or stick with what they currently have on board there bikes?

Yes it may be fractionally faster maybe even smoother but real world riding & Alps ?? will it really be that beneficial over xx1? unless your name is absalon.

That's probably true for many things people splurge on even if they convince themselves it's better/faster.

I don't expect that if I eventually get electronic shifting that I'll really be any faster. I just like nice kit and I like the innovation of it so once it's down to a more reasonable price, I'd pay for it.

it's expensive enough running a full xx1 set up changing chains regularly & the odd cassette never mind going electric, I wonder if the majority of those that are posting positive comments dash out & stump up the roughly lets say a grand to have it on [b]there [/b]bikes ?? or stick with what they currently have on board [b]there [/b]bikes?

Their*

I would have it, but I suspect it'll add weight to an XX1 set up as you only get half the advantage of lighter shifters and wiring, but still have to carry the same battery as with a 2x/3x system. It also remains to be seen if it will work with XX1 cassettes, and I don't either wish to reduce the range, or have to buy a Shimano freehub body.

Weird comment though, you're on a thread about a product, poo-pooing it without ever having seen it, let alone tried it, and you're effectively calling the promoters fickle? Have you anything to add, or are you just going to name random geographic locations you don't deem it suitable for?

A friend had a Di2 equipped Yeti years ago (modded 7970 Dura Ace), he said that he did notice reduced fatigue over long races (yes, I was cynical too, but he's a lot faster than me), and that shifting performance didn't deteriorate in poor conditions. So to that end the benefits are secondary, it's not so much that fitting this means you'll go faster. It's more that fitting this means you won't get slower.

Like it or not I am sure electronic shifting will become more and more common. I am building up a new road/cx bike at the moment and decided to go down the Di2 route. The price of the mechs didn't seem too bad, I think the rear Ultegra Mech was just over £100 which considering all the stuff inside it seems reasonable compared to a mechanical version. Shifter/brake levers we're the same price as mechanical. The bits I found expensive for the system were all the additional stuff needed, 6 x cables, 2 x junction boxes, battery and charger, that was about £300.

Shifting will be far more positive in the mud, so I can see it's place off road, The rear mech has a feature that disengages the motors in the event of a crash. I am sure this is also in the XTR version, and could be handy as the only time I have damaged a rear mech is when I have crashed.

In case any one is confused here is a video on how the 'Synchronized Shift' works : [url= http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/synchronized_shift.html ]http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/synchronized_shift.html[/url]. Surprised that it is supporting 3x10.

When the mtb version gets to XT pricing I will be interested.

Their*

I am sure this is also in the XTR version, and could be handy as the only time I have damaged a rear mech is when I have crashed.

It is indeed! What remains to be seen though is whether/at what cost you can replace the other bits. If the mech is scrap, that it's detached itself from the motor is a moot point! Cages are the obvious parts to get mangled though, and they've always been replaceable.

Oh thanks for that no one had any idea why they meant till you did that
Trust me you dont need to make any effort to look patronising

Oh I know, but it grates, and perhaps he'll get it right next time, when it may be in a context that matters. Not trying to be patronising, it just really irritates me.

I hate it when people don't know there theirs from there theres.

[njee20 explodes]

There really annoying. But it's not they're fault.

*head explodes*

Edit: dammit, I exploded 3 seconds before my own head!

njee20 I apologize profusely for my lack of education & grammar, very sorry, please do enjoy your electric whizzy bikes.

I'll stick with the current set up on both of our Bronson's thank you very much, one XX1 one XTR, oh did I spell that right chaps?

I'll stick with the current set up on both of our Bronson's thank you very much, one XX1 one XTR, oh did I spell that right chaps?

I'll stick with the current set up on both of our Bronson's thank you very much, one XX1 one XTR, oh did I spell that right chaps?

Bronsons, plural, no apostrophe required. I didn't ask what bike you had though, just wasn't sure why you were on the thread, I'm none the wiser now. Why reply to a thread containing some genuinely insightful information with some irrelevant criticisms?

It may well have a place with the elite race whippets

Isn't that exactly where it's targeted?

XTR is precisely that, the top end Race groupset, moaning about the cost of it is a little disingenuous, cheaper groupsets exist for more day to day applications, you don't [i]have [/i]to put XTR on your everyday trail bike you know 😉

Eventually it will filter down and cost will be smaller, I would image there will also still be mechanical versions of groupsets for those applications where knocks and bangs are more expected, hence Zee and Saint etc. diverging from the XC groups.

I think it's great that they're pushing new tech at the top end, the good ideas will filter down, the bad ones will die.

The ones that are good but too expensive will remain top end, but all in all its a good thing for racers and non-racers alike.

njee
I thought singletrack was a cycling forum not a personal slagging of forum where you actually discuss all things cycling not whether some one miss spells something or as in your case clearly has a higher intellect & must surely be one of the chosen ones who has a much higher income than most of us. Yes we have two Bronson's bought & paid for by means of hard work at a much lower level clearly than you.
I bow to your superior knowledge & grammar yet again.

Also 100 lines, must not waste money on pathetic out dated technology.
Dam I knew I'd F87ked up some where.

^^ Srsly? 😕

Do you want a colossal piece of fish for that chip on your shoulder? I don't think I ever questioned your intellect, ability to buy expensive bikes etc. Just pointed something out that really irks me, feel free to ignore it and continue contributing to the discussion. You weren't really doing that in the first instance. Anywho, we're derailing what is an interesting thread. Back OT...

I think it's great that they're pushing new tech at the top end, the good ideas will filter down, the bad ones will die.

Totally agree! It's interesting that Di2 on the road hasn't trickled down below Ultegra, despite being in it's second iteration, I wonder if that's being held by Shimano, or if the cost is deemed excessive for a 105 level group.

Anyone recall how much Dura Ace Di2 was when released compared to Ultegra Di2 now?

It's interesting that Di2 on the road hasn't trickled down below Ultegra, despite being in it's second iteration, I wonder if that's being held by Shimano, or if the cost is deemed excessive for a 105 level group.

For now, I think it's important for them to keep the "halo product" element of Di2. I would very much expect that once SRAM start rolling out their e-shifting, you'll see Shimano trying to push the market down in price, as it would allow them to say that they'd been at it for longer, and look, we're cheaper! Cynical? Moi?

They've made 105 11 speed. That keeps it comfortably competitive so they can keep electronic 105 for release when they need to (and can price it competitively).

I think pushing Di2 down to 105 or below would probably be a mistake, certainly not any further down.

It's useful to have a cheaper mechanical groupset but still with decent performance that can be used for applications where electric would be too costly or fiddly.

I think/hope the same would happen in MTB, I can see Di2 coming down to XT eventually, but hope SLX would remain mechanical.

Di2 is offered in addition to mechanical, not instead of eg you can still get mechanical DA or Ultegra.

They've made 105 11 speed. That keeps it comfortably competitive so they can keep electronic 105 for release when they need to (and can price it competitively).

That's my point though - there's been two iterations of 105 where they could have released it, but they've not, hence I wonder if it's actually too expensive to be worthwhile at the moment. Consider if the cost reduction was absolute versus Ultegra, rather than proportional - if they can't get cheaper motors etc.

Di2 Ultegra is basically the same cost as mechanical Dura Ace, which is quite shrewd, I can't imagine many people would opt for 105 if it was £850, versus £1000 for Ultegra (say). It would have to be a whole price point down - the mechanical version is roughly 60% the cost of mechanical Ultegra - I suspect if Shimano couldn't hit a similar ratio for Di2 (ie £600 or so) they'd not bother.

That said... if they did Di2 105 I'd have it on a winter bike in a heartbeat!

I suspect it's recouping R&D costs for now. I can't really see that cost of manufacture of Di2 is much more than mechanical (surely the shifters are a lot simpler for example.) Do seem to be paying a premium for it right now.

As for trickle down to 105 and beyond, I can see the rational in thinking that it's for the higher level groupsets. Or maybe they just can't see how to make a cheaper version of it that is not quite as good as the Ultegra one. Is there really much performance difference between Ultegra and DA Di2?

Oh and njee20 and yorkycsl... 😆

Is there really much performance difference between Ultegra and DA Di2?

On 6770 they artificially made the shift slightly worse than with 7970 in order to introduce a difference! No idea if that holds true on 9070 and 6870. Ultegra still looks clumpy - the motors are very obvious, whilst Dura Ace is more discreet.

I wonder if the majority of those that are posting positive comments dash out & stump up the roughly lets say a grand to have it on there bikes ??

erm yes?

I wonder if the majority of those that are posting positive comments dash out & stump up the roughly lets say a grand to have it on there bikes ??

Road bike, have it on one of them already and like it a lot. If I was building up a CX bike right now, and I could get hold of hydro Di2 STI, it'd have Di2. MTB, probably not till it's had a couple of years to bed in.

I was also wondering if in the end electronic shifting will be cheaper than cable operated mechanical

In low end group sets sti shifters are always expensive (in relative terms) and they must be really complicated in terms of number of parts and assembley. So electronic shifters will be cheaper. Wires can't cost more than cables. Microprocessor control won't be expensive on a mass market product. Batteries aren't that expensive. Bike assembley might be cheaper with less need to set things up. You might not need a floating jockey on the rear mech. You might need to make less variations on the front mech (no top pull vs bottom pull)

So the question remains whether the motors needed in mechs are expensive and clever or whether once R&D costs are paid it will they will be cheap to make as well.

I remember when Aluminium was a premium over steel for bikes and record players were cheaper than cd players. Cd players need incredibly accurate control of the laser but cost nothing these days.

mrblobby - Di2 Hydro STi levers are available now - Shimano R785

Di2 is offered in addition to mechanical, not instead of eg you can still get mechanical DA or Ultegra.

I know, but Ultegra mechanical is still more expensive than 105.
If they did a 105 Di2 then where would that fit price wise?

It makes sense to have a cut off point and I think 105 is probably where it's at, but hey ho, time will tell 🙂

If they did a 105 Di2 then where would that fit price wise?

It makes sense to have a cut off point and I think 105 is probably where it's at, but hey ho, time will tell

Aye, which was my point - it has to be a worthwhile (from a perception point of view) 'step' down from Ultegra. If it's near as dammit the same you end up SRAM's daft pricing hierarchy where there's real ambiguity about where things sit.

I wonder if the majority of those that are posting positive comments dash out & stump up the roughly lets say a grand to have it on there bikes ??

I wouldn't. But just because it's not for me personally doesn't mean it's not a good thing and that I can be positive about it.

I like the fact that they're pushing the technology and I can see many positive things about it. However, there are many reasons why it wouldn't be for me, cost being one of them.

I already have Ultegra Di2 on my road bike and tri bike and love it. The benefits are a little more subtle on the road bike as the obvious advantage on the tri bike is multiple shifters so both on the drops and the aero bars. Am now going Alfine Di2 on my commuter, with hydro R785 levers, so hopefully that'll be just as good.

Assuming I like the Di2 Alfine and belt-drive combo on my commuter I might migrate some components across from my cheap carbon 29er onto a custom frame to have a Di2 Alfine MTB too. Not convinced that I'd jump to replace my mechanical groupset on my MTB quite yet.

I'm sure in a few years time MTB Di2 will be a lot more common. I only paid €1k for my first Di2 groupset and did a bit of hacking the 2nd time round to save some money, so it's no longer totally extortionate.

Cheers, Rich

Di2 on an MTB....what a total waste of time. I mean seriously...electronics...on a bike...