[Closed] Drop bars + off road = rubbish braking options

I have no problem descending in the drops.

Good braking
Wide grip
Can't slip off
Weight over front tyre to prevent washing out.

Move your bars up?

Change your bar position so that you can ride in the drops without breaking your neck. As per various blogs etc, I have the flats of my bars at saddle height or a fraction below. The drops are then in a good position for getting the most out of the braking and control advantages of riding with hands in the hooks. Looks awful but hey ho.

The top of my bars is about an inch lower than saddle.
Here's how it's set up:
[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8359/8286684665_b3059df143_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8359/8286684665_b3059df143_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/dCgqDx ]New cyclocross bike[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/tryingtimes/ ]tryingtimes[/url], on Flickr

Full hydraulic system = very good braking from the hoods.

Always better to be descending on the drops so get the braking to work from there, maybe changing the height and angle of the bars to make it work better for you.

Personal choice but I like Woodchippers as they give a nice, wide, elbows out position

Edit - just seen your photo. I'd want the levers pointing less skyward. Did it come set up like that?

Edit - just seen your photo. I'd want the levers pointing less skyward. Did it come set up like that?

as above, learn to descend in the drops, more control over both the bike and the brakes

if that's how your bike's still set up then braking in the drops is going to be hard as you're reaching down into the drop and then having to awkwardly rotate your hands back up again to reach the levers

try rotating the bars so that the flat bit at the ends bit is about the same angle as the top-tube, that might drop the levers and bring everything into a little more of a comfortable position

Most top CX racers almost never use the drops from what I can see.
I prefer to descend on the drops though - not from a braking perspective, but I've had my hands bounced of the hoods and it wasn't a great experience!

Shallower drops can help; my cx bike is much better off-road now that I've got Midge bars fitted and spend 90% of the time in the drops.

JoB will try to stop you doing this 😉

Drop bars and hooded levers = an ergonomic and engineering nightmare! I've never understood why anyone (other than a pro road racer) would want to run a bike with drops; they make no sense on any level, giving away both braking accuracy and steering control to a simple flat bar/mtb brake combo every time. Hooded brakes place the greatest leverage with your weakest and least sensitive fingers. Doh...
In turn, your best fingers are in a position with poor leverage and thereby compromised control.
Putting bar ends on a properly low flat bar gives you stretched out speed options as well as a more relaxed position on the normal grips.
The only conclusion left really is that many folk run drops as a fashion statement, in order to look racy.... feel free to flame!

I've been thinking similar highlandman - apart from I don't think flat bars with bar ends satisfy me either. I'd like shoulder-width bar ends and wider flats - ideally with braking on both 🙂

I much prefer drops to flat bars, but getting the set-up bob-on for comfort and ease of lever reach from hoods & drops is tricky.

I love drop bars, but they aren't suitable for technical descending IMO. Mtbs have flat bars for a reason. Problem is flat bars are not very aero so are bad on the road, see all the cross country racers holding either side of the stem when going hard on flat non-technical sections.

End of the day drops or flats are a compromise in certain situations and you just have to pick the ones that suit the bulk of the riding you do on that bike.

I've never understood why anyone (other than a pro road racer) would want to run a bike with drops; they make no sense on any level, giving away both braking accuracy and steering control to a simple flat bar/mtb brake combo every time. Hooded brakes place the greatest leverage with your weakest and least sensitive fingers.

Move your levers down so the flat bit of the hoods is parallel with the tops of your bars, that way you'll be able to reach the levers better from the drops and descend with greater confidence in that position.

Something like this below is a good start

[img] [/img]

[quote=AlexSimon ]I've been thinking similar highlandman - apart from I don't think flat bars with bar ends satisfy me either. I'd[s] like shoulder-width bar ends and wider flats - ideally with braking on both[/s] a mountain bike

[quote=aP ]Of course if you're using shimano levers then quite a lot of what you say is partly correct as they have the lever pivot in a very strange place that gives terrible operating ergonomics. But I don't use them, and don't have that problem.I do use them (Ultegra 6700 with BB7s) and don't have that problem.

Hyrdo brakes helps... I can one finger brake from the hoods with my 105 hydros

Chicken levers. For some reason most people wont use them ie they are for wimps/people can not ride properly. However these are probably the same people who ride around a grassy field thinking they are off road 😀

When you are descending proper hills chicken levers allow you to get in to a good / more comfortable position on the bars for descending.

[img] [/img]

I'd like shoulder-width bar ends and wider flats

So bars about 440mm wide then, unless you;re some kind of behemoth.

My 5600 105 and Shimano CX 77's work just fine and dandy, can pull mad skidz and endos for days

[img] [/img]See, that just looks really narrow for proper control. I like to have my hands out much wider.

[b]JoB[/b] and [b]steve_b77[/b] - ok - I'll try that (along with raising the bars to the top of my spacers). I'm not sure it's going to make me feel comfortable though - yes, the brake leavers aren't currently comfortable in that position, but I just don't think I want to be that bent over while picking my way down a rocky Peaks descent.

I'll try though - before I either give up on drops or try and invent a new bar shape/brake lever design 😉

FunkyDunc - I have suicide levers / cross tops already and love them.
But as scotroutes says you can see how narrow they are. If I could just push my hands right out into the corners it would be much better, but of course the bars curve there (which is in part to help cable routing).

Then there's the fact that to keep them with hydro, I'd have to use a Hope V-Twin or similar which is a bit hacky.

[img] [/img]

I've found that this setup is pretty good, I use the cable from my 105 10speed shifters to pull a pair of SLX (with XT covers :wink:) brakes, but to be honest I only use the hoods position on the flat/climbs and descend on the drops, so don't mind if the hood braking is a little bit weak. From the drops the braking is easily as good as my XTRs or XTs on my flat bar bikes, if not better. The "cross top" position is only ever used when on very long days when I'm pootling up a climb so sat near upright

EDIT: Thinking about it I doubt you could use this on conventional drops as I'm using it on a pair of wide woodchippers and even then I don't have much spare bar space.

Nice bodging oliverracing!
Your bars look more sharply curved than most at the top/hood junction. What are they?

Edit: Sorry didn't realise OP was already using Chicken levers. 😳

On my Boardman CX (as in pic above) the levers extend far enough out that I can sit with my hands right on the ends of the flat bar and still reach them.

I did move the levers as far out from the stem as I could get them though

[img] [/img]

You must change to flared drops, salsa cowbells or maybe more. They spread your elbows out so you feel much safer descending in the drops on technical stuff.

TurnerGuy - Member

You must change to flared drops, salsa cowbells or maybe more. They spread your elbows out so you feel much safer descending in the drops on technical stuff.

Shame it's not as easy to swap them about like it is with mountain bikes!

Interesting to see that Rob has his bars rotated similar to mine - bit it does look uncomfortable!

If the handle position of your dropbars is in the same spot in space as bar-ends would be on an ordinary bar, you may find it more logical.

It's a mistake to apply roadbike thinking to dropbars offroad.

I agree with oliverracing, you don't use the tops much. It's hoods for climbing, drops for braking and descents. The advantage of using the drops like that is you can have a very loose hand position but still be hooked into the bike despite what the terrain is throwing at you. I find it a much more secure grip than a flat bar.

Another solution is to use a bar that takes a normal mtb lever as I do these days.

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On thing to consider with dropbars offroad is that having squared off corners can lead to wrist banging on steep climbs especially on wide bars - a more angled corner avoids this. Just a minor detail, but adds to comfort.

I did move the levers as far out from the stem as I could get them though

I agree with oliverracing, you don't use the tops much. It's hoods for climbing, drops for braking and descents.

Sorry just put Rob pic back in 😆

Interesting to see that Rob has his bars rotated similar to mine - bit it does look uncomfortable!

I doubt he probably uses the drops much in the 3 peaks. When I saw that pic I thought he has just set it up to give maximum control on the hoods.

[img] [/img]

I'll just leave this here as something to aspire to... controlled, comfortable, fast, stylish 😉

[img] [/img]

Bar-top/interrupter levers are horrible and you just end up with mushier braking and narrow stance makes control awkward - I much prefer to get the bar/lever position right - SRAM and Campagnolo are better in this respect. Bars level with saddle and hoods/bars provide a smooth platform to support the whole hand - I've descended technical / black runs without issue - even though I've got small hands I can still maintain a good grip.

I'll just leave this here as something to aspire to... controlled, comfortable, fast, stylish

As I said above there is a world of difference between riding around a muddy field and riding down stuff like this for a mile or two.

[img] [/img]

I've never understood why anyone (other than a pro road racer) would want to run a bike with drops; they make no sense on any level, giving away both braking accuracy and steering control to a simple flat bar/mtb brake combo every time

I'll also admit to forever trying and failing to get on with drop bars - partly the brake position but more the wrist angle of the hand position(s).

I've just finished my uncloggable freak cx bike for this winter. Only doing regional races, so running a (slightly) "illegal" frame design and On-One Mungo bars.

This gives me a couple of comfy hand positions that are very secure and near the brake lever. Then a slightly more aero position / tuck on the flats of the hoods where there is still some access to the brakes. Downside is these bars lack a decent flat centre position.

Some photos that will probably make JoB vomit..... I'll explain the bike some other time 🙂

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

I'd like shoulder-width bar ends and wider flats

Velo Orange Casey Crazy bars, not drops, more like a swept flat bar but with welded on bar ends kinda in the middle to replicate a hoods position of drops, sound mad, named mad, look mad, work great for mixed terrain and touring, take a look

I'll just leave this here as something to aspire to..

That looks like a very shallow drop...

As I said above there is a world of difference between riding around a muddy field and riding down stuff like this for a mile or two.

Why the.. ? Just get a flippin rigid 29er. What's next - Fort Bill on a shopper? Newport Velodrome on an Alpine 160? 🙄

Shallow drops make a huge difference, other than that - what JoB & Steve said.

Descending off road on properly set up drops/levers gives you way more control than on the hoods.

the only time I've struggled with braking is when my pads were mis aligned leading to excess leaver throw, otherwise I find drops more confidence inspiring when things get steep and rocky

I much prefer descending in the drops. The extra weight over the front wheel really helps with traction on tight twisty singletrack. I do have compact drops though on a less racey frame and will probably get some flared bars to aid control further.

Just get a flippin rigid 29er

On all honesty what's the frikkin point of that set up up there? As you're only doing regional events can't you just run flat bars as opposed to subjecting the levers to forces they're not designed for?

Is that danger of death from having to ride with those bars ?

Each to their own, so ride what you want and I won't think any worse of you for it, but when an MTB is so good off road, I can't really understand the fascination of riding a slightly modified road bike off road

Hi Alex

I have to admit that I hate descending on the drops off road using normal road bars. I now run Salsa Woodchippers and the extra width makes a world of difference. I feel more in control as a result. I won't go back to normal road bars now.

Hope this helps as it made all the difference for me.

Cheers

Sanny

In my experience they still feel rubbish on the road.

They aren't if you get there right one and build it right.

[img] [/img]

What are the bars that epicyclo is using? Mungos?

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - Member

Each to their own, so ride what you want and I won't think any worse of you for it, but when an MTB is so good off road, I can't really understand the fascination of riding a slightly modified road bike off road

Have you ridden a cross bike? I never thought I'd enjoy road riding, but the combination of quiet country Peak District roads, the ability to link all sorts of off-road bits together that don't really make a MTB ride, etc is really really enjoyable.

I feel the same way about my converted hybrid, but I would rather that or a 'gravel' bike than a cross bike tbh.

However down here in Swindon where it's between 50/50 and 80/20 road/offroad, the 29er makes more sense. There are a lot of lumpy dirt trails which benefit from the cushioning, which comes at the expense of road speed - but it's still not that slow.

This is one of the reasons I sold my cross bikes. It makes no sense to descent off road in the drops.

On fully road bike drops makes sense as its is more aerodynamic, which is good even for descending.

Moving the bars to such a position that you can descend in the drops means that the standard position is less aerodynamic. And also pointless.

To be honest is anything the bars should be the other way up on a cross bike if you ask me.

You dont need an "uber" aerodynamic position as you have knobbly tryes on.

What you do need is a standard position that is "quite" aerodynamic for the road sections (ie narrow + low)

And a higher/wider position for offroad.

Top levers are pointless as they are even narrower and hence are no good offroad.

The Velo Orange Casey Crazy bars probably make the most sense to me.

But a riser bar where u hold onto the middle section for road bits also makes sense.

You're trolling, right?

No, if it made sense to descend offroad in a lower position ; then DH bikes would have low front end which they dont.

The only thing the drops have going for them is the brakes are more easily accessed and you get a more solid grip of the bars than the hoods.

But these "advantages" are really down to a poor bar design for road/offroad use.

On-Road drops do make sense as if you really are trying to descend quickly then being in a more aero position will increase ur speed.

I reckon the real reason you sold your cross bikes is that they were the wrong size and set up badly.

And your DH arguement is, um, puzzling.

And your DH arguement is, um, puzzling.

Explain why I would want to be in a lower position off road than on road ?

Its like saying a XC 29er should have a high front end than a DH bike.

For an ideal cyclocross bike the position a road bike produces on the hoods should be replicated for road sections.

This is "semi" aero and also very comfortable for long rides.

However the position for offroad should try and mimic an XC MTB bike.

Mimicking a "fully" aero position for the offroad sections is clearly wrong.

DH is smashing down near vertical gradients at high speed and doing very little else, CX is well, not. The average gradient on a CX ride will be zero. You'll also spend more time going along and up on a CX bike, where a lower position helps, as does being a bit more aero.

If you want to use a CX for DH, get a DH bike.

And I'm guessing you've not done much CX then........

My brakes work fine ,drops or hoods.
It took a while for my hands to completely get used to hoods, or to be strong enough tbh.
If it gets bumpy descending,I have much more overall control on the drops.

Horses for courses,eh?

You'll also spend more time going along and up on a CX bike, where a lower position helps, as does being a bit more aero.

I agree, so have this as the standard position.

And then another higher/wider position for off road/DH.

The problem with the top levers is although they are higher, they make your effective bar very narrow (as other has stated) and are therefor also useless off road.

As you have said you have your drops high enough to be comfortable to ride offroad downhill.
Do you ever ride on the hoods now ?
Which sections do you ride on the hoods ?
What are the advantages ?
Is it just thats is a little bit more comfortable everynow and then ?
Is there really any point having this position anymore ?

If the drops are high enough to ride DH offroad there also probably high enough to ride in comfort on road.

And I'm guessing you've not done much CX then........

No but I think alot of Singletrack readers get CX bikes as they want something to link bits of trail (think smallish hills ie chilterns, not Peak district) with road sections in between.

In theory they should be perfect for this, but there not.

They are good on road but due to the design off the bars much much worse than a 29er offroad.

Whether CX are perfect for CX racing is another story. But I still cant see the advantage of the position the drops give u on a CX course myself.

I think what they are good at is improving your riding, the position is so awkward u have to improve to be able to ride in it decently. In that way they are a bit like single speed and sometimes a change is good to improve ur riding.

Ditched the drops for my adventurey bike. 600mm flat bar w/cheap Shimano Hydros, Ergons, oh and clip on aero bars if there's long road bits involved.

Also allows cheap n easy 1x mtb gearing.

Ditched the drops for my adventurey bike. 600mm flat bar w/cheap Shimano Hydros, Ergons, oh and clip on aero bars if there's long road bits involved.

This makes sense to me.

It seems to me those who are opposed to dropbars offroad have never ridden a bike properly setup with them.

The whole point is nothing to do with aero. It is for control. Your hands hook into drops better than when they are draped over a flat bar and your wrists don't suffer as much either. You don't use the tops as much as you'd think, and if you're riding mainly on the hoods it usually means your bars are too low.

As a result the bars have to be set higher than you would have them on a road bike. With the very short head tubes on modern bikes, this gives a pretty unsightly stack of spacers and angled stem to get the right height unless you use a shallow drop.

Disclaimer: I'm talking about mtb riding, also gravel rough offroad, not CX.

ianpv - Member
What are the bars that epicyclo is using? Mungos?

[url= http://www.satoribike.com/pro.php?m=d&pid=33&cid=18&f=2 ]Satori[/url] bullbar or One23 Minotaur, is the name of the sets I have (it looks like they get different brand names). It looks like it is called the Smooth Drop now. What attracted me was it was mtb lever compatible and a short drop. They're a bit narrow for hard technical stuff, but I used them for example when I did the World Solo 24 hrs in Ft William. (SIngle speed so they got a bit of abuse)

[url= https://c7.staticflickr.com/4/3927/15337391758_3c414773c9_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://c7.staticflickr.com/4/3927/15337391758_3c414773c9_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I seem to recall Alex saying he took his cross bike down Cave-dale.
Now there lies the problem!

As an aside, the biggest problem with dropbars on an mtb is road bike levers. I find them too flexy after using mtb levers. However, maybe this has improved in the last few years.

The whole point is nothing to do with aero. It is for control. Your hands hook into drops better than when they are draped over a flat bar and your wrists don't suffer as much either.

I can kinda see this point especially with respect to wrists and a rigid fork. I can see that perfectly flat bars are nt maybe the best for a rigid bike offroad.

However a bike that is meant to be partly ridden onroad and offroad. Should have a "semi" aero position for the on road section.

You don't use the tops as much as you'd think, and if you're riding mainly on the hoods it usually means your bars are too low.

I agree with this but then what is the point of using road bars/hood/brakes at all. Then the user might as well go for the type of bar u are using above and MTB levers.

Im not saying what is the best solution.

Im just saying the current Road bar setup on CX bikes is a fudge that was no real advantages for any use.

Stick drop bars on a hybrid and sell £Adventure to the Mamils. Fab!

(runs and hides)

Rear wheels are the PITA with that...

scu98rkr - Member
...but then what is the point of using road bars/hood/brakes at all. Then the user might as well go for the type of bar u are using above and MTB levers.

Which is why I have set my bike up like that. 🙂

But the narrow bars wouldn't suit most people, and if I could get a wider bar that took mtb levers I'd be happy.

(If the bike is using rim brakes then road levers are ok)

One of the things I was thinking while writing the OP was that the drop bar brake/gear lever has evolved from a pretty old setup and hood braking is a bit of a bodge. I wondered whether there could be a new design.

As another aside I remember back in the days of Bicycle Action I remember the Crane brothers had road hoods (just the rubber hoods) on flat bars - inside the brake/gear levers. I think if was on a desert crossing

Orangejohn - Member

I seem to recall Alex saying he took his cross bike down Cave-dale.
Now there lies the problem!

ok - So first I'll try rotating the bars a little.
Then I might try some Salsa bars (or the Love Mud Bomber £25 ones which look just as good).
Then look at this again.

Thanks all!

Alex

Another thing to consider is using gel inserts under your tape. I was reflecting on this while riding back from Sa Calobra this morning and the extra diameter on the bars makes a substantial difference. A combination of the tape and my Salsa Woodchipper bars is a winner for me. I used to find descending on my old Ritchey Swiss Cross a bit unsettling with road bars. It's amazing the difference small changes make!

Cheers

Sanny

Update

Went on a long bivy Monday night with the handlebars rolled forwards.
Found braking on the drops a bit easier (was happier on the Long Causeway descent), but didn't enjoy the new hood position. Found myself on the tops 80% of the time.

I think part of the problem is I'm a mountain biker and used to being more upright. The hoods now felt too far away. It made me wonder if the whole bike was too long.

AlexSimon - Member
...I think part of the problem is I'm a mountain biker and used to being more upright. The hoods now felt too far away. It made me wonder if the whole bike was too long.

When I looked at the first pic of your bike and the way the bars are rotated, my first instinct was your stem is too long. I would also aim to have the top of the bar level with the saddle and preferably higher for offroad.

But that's guess work without seeing you actually on the bike, and therefore probably wrong.

[url= http://twentynineinches.com/drop-bars-for-off-road-on-set-up-and-concerns/ ]This may be of use.[/url]