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Just so I know we're all singing from the same hymsheet.
This is my take on it, has been for years. When on a fast paced club training run, you do a stint out front and without a word being spoken another rider takes up the work. When that second rider come through he does it slowly and smoothly ensuring he picks you up without you having to put anymore effort in?
What I find, and what I'm trying to correct is that my new club mates probably do a little too much on the front and then flick the elbow, but the rider taking up the work goes past too fast immediately leaving a gap. Meaning the previous front man has to up his pace to get on.
To me elbow flicking is race language to get a wheelsucker to work in a break. And passing too quickily is more akin to making a jump.
Am I wrong, simply too old in my ways or what?
isn't it just poor skills that usually just needs a grumpy old git with a loud voice to admonish the idiots?
I thought you were supposed to go as long as you fancied on the front and then peel off around the outside, exposing the second person to the wind and keeping the same group speed.. would that not be more sensible?
Note I have never been on group road rides 🙂
hah ! found it:
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/quiz-question-2-for-newbie-roadies ]apparently, ...[/url]
We always do it the other way. People on the front move over and drift to the back. The idea of the people right behind having to overtake the people in front just seems silly for lots of reasons.
As you drift to the back, you are obviously going slower then everyone else, so may need to put in a few pedals to get back up to speed when joining the back.
edit: what molgrips said.
Although, right after someone else has just put in a hard effort and you're still fresh - that's the best time to attack, surely?
Leaving a gap - ime/o - is something to do with judging how fast to come past/distance as its not an easy thing to get to grips with when learning.
At least they come through and take a turn, unlike the club from up north who sat on mine and a friends wheel for a huge chunk of a recent sportive and didn't take a turn up front. 😡
Depends on the circumstances, if you're riding through-and-off you should peel off to the right and drop back. If you're attacking or bridging a gap, an arm-flick is perfectly acceptable code for "come on, your turn"...
But yes, nothing pisses me off more than the smart-arse that's been sandbagging for several miles coming through and dropping the group.
It's usually inexperience. I also hate knobs that keep sitting up or getting out of the saddle when they're on the front... Keep it smooth you retard!!!
Road riding has so many reasons for people to be grumpy.. it's wonderful isn't it 🙂
I thought this was going to be about Autocad.
We always do it the other way. People on the front move over and drift to the back. The idea of the people right behind having to overtake the people in front just seems silly for lots of reasons
That sort of happens naturally anyway with the way we've always done it. As soon as the leading rider sees you edge out a smooth rotation starts to work.
I'm not keen on people easing off the front, especialy on the flat with a tailwind and the groups doing over thirty.
If I'm taking up the pace, I go past steadilly that way I can judge exactly the speed I need to be doing to ensure it's a smooth as can be i.e no one needs to ease off or speed up.
Through, Across, Ease
How difficult can it be? 8)
Is through and off not more likely to end up in the speed dropping as people will ease up before the go off. Whereas speeding up to get to the front is only going to increase pace or keep it constant. That's my thought on it anyway.
But to answer the OP - do the people who are doing it know that they are doing wrong?
^^^this
If this is a new club, surely it's just a case of agreeing/pointing out. Same as you would decide which side to peel off to, which way the ride is going etc.
I'm normally one of the shouty people in a race and could write loads on this subject. Simplest way to ensure smooth group riding is to get the newbies down to a velodrome.
sounds like bad skills to me.
No need for elbow flicks on any club training run - no matter how hard.
Elbow flicks reserved for races (2 up TT's , track , RR's) and its a positive thing letting the other rider know its their turn , not a case of trying to ge a rider to do his bit (have a voice for doing that )
Is it a chain gang?? If so you should be moving up and across in a fluid motion.
If a rider moves up and moves across at such a speed that the rider he is moving across onto has to accelerate then that is simply bad riding.
Not a bad thing and ususally down to inexperience.
We have a local chain gang and also practice through and off through winter on long runs (i.e. -last 30 miles back through and off)
Been in so many RR breaks where the riders cant ride through and off but cant be too hard on them as they may not have the above or practice chain gang riding that often.
Years ago when I first started going on chain gang I was told what I was doing wrong by established riders and took it on board. Unfortunately these days you cant tell anybody anything anymore without them taking offence.
This is how a chain gang works - the clue is in the name 🙂
http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-clubs/chain-gang-through-and-off.html
The chainy diagram is flawed. Rider is moving over too early forcing the inside rider to slow to allow him to move across and it also leaves the outside rider behind in the wind too early.
Whilst it may seem pedantic, that is one of the major problem with a chainy.
Obviously they will get the idea from the link though,
Just re-read the op's question, and relates more to a Paceline rather than a Chain Gang. Is this any help;
http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-clubs/paceline-training.html
Is it a chain gang?? If so you should be moving up and across in a fluid motion.
Yes, and exactly.
I don't really want to bring the subject up, but teach them by example. The good thing is we get it right later in our rides, but by then the constant stretching of the group blows some of the weaker riders out.
That link above is basically it except that, traditionally, the line goes the other way in the UK, the slower line is on the right. Depends on wind direction though, I've done both ways before.
Main thing is to let them know in advance - this is what we expect of you, life is made easier for everyone blah blah. It's the commonest mistake by newbies who think that to get through, they have to sprint. Equally, some people peel off and don't slow down. The change of pace is almost imperceptible, 1mph difference at most between the lines.
The concertina effect of a bad chainy just wears people out as they are constantly accelerating and braking, which goes against everything its supposed to be.
To me you should be running the same cadence in both lines only 'pushing the pedals' going up the line and 'glasscranking' going down the line.
Should be v smooth and never should you need to touch brakes.
The slow/ineperienced riders will definitely struggle if it concertina's.
Crazy legs , I have NEVER done a chain gang that goes the other way when training on main roads as its EXTREMELY dangerous.
Races, you ride depending on the wind but NEVER have a slow lane on the outside when traffic is concerned.
Traffic needs to see the front rider, it cant then suddenly have someone swing to the outside from the kerb and potentially into their path.
Done chainys in Bolton, Pimbo, Newcastle and various area's down south and have simply never seen it done that way.
MW - totally agree. Much safer for the recovery line/rider dropping back on the inside next to kerb.
Margin: just depends what you've been taught I guess. As I say I've done it both ways but on the continent they always seem to run them fast line on the kerb side, slow line on the traffic side (at least, the continental clubs/riders that I've been with). My London based club almost always ran changes clockwise (through on the inside, swing out). Maybe it's cos that's the way it's done on the track and that's where they used to practise most so it was just natural, I don't know.
It actually doesn't make that much difference, the two lines have a very similar speed - there's always going to be a rider swinging out into the traffic side whether it's at the front or back of the line.
OK, so my limited involvement in this:
The trad way for pacelines to share the work is for the front two riders to do a turn. the outside rider eases and moves out, leaving the next two riders to bring the group through. The original front two float to the back. This works well for general club runs, where the length of time spent on the front can vary.
My preferred way - for training rides at least - is effectively a very slow chaingang. Slow in the sense of the changeover. So, the group agrees at the outset that you'll spend 10 minutes on the front. After 5 minutes, the outside rider moves across and the rider behind him moves up. Then after 5 minutes do the same, etc. Everyone does 10 mins on the front (5 on the outside, 5 on the inside).
In both cases, the key is maintaining a constant working pace/effort, of course. The former allows stronger riders to take longer turns, the latter expects weaker riders to dig in a bit more during their turn. I prefer the latter for training effect.
CL - sorry but simply NEVER done a chainy in UK that does it the way you say (your London club was an exception). Get out to Pimbo (virtually closed roads) or Bickerstaffe with the E12 chainy and they are always outside to in and seamlessly smooth.
As for rider swinging out to traffic at the back - he can be seen by the cars as opposed to the front where they cant. it makes a huge difference.
There's a reason they do it the opposite way on the track (slower riders up the track to slow them. cant peel off and go under riders and speed up) - but you know that anyway.
Oh, and other than the track, I've only done changangs with the slow line on the inside/kerbside.
And as for oldgit's question - the key is a little coaching really. One of the older riders in my club (still 2nd Cat at 50 - previous holder of national team BBAR) is an expert coach, though he doesn't see what he does as that. Little hints and tips dropped in here and there in a friendly way and everyone's riding smooth as.
my 1st race back in April i ended up in a group of 5 about 4 mins from the main group. We all took turns on the front by the front rider pulling to the right and slowing slightly while everyone came forward until the then front rider moving to the back.
This meant a break of 4 people and felt comfortable.
On sunday i was quite surprised when again i ended up in a group of 5 about 2 mins down but the pace was much more ferocious. In this group the front rider did his turn for what was 4/5 secs. It was like thru and off but 1 line. It's hard to describe but the person behind me came outside of me and in front, i then joined his wheel as he moved past the front guy and over and then i go past him to the front. I was literally on the front for 2/3 secs.. we all took turns and in 10 secs i was back on the front again
I'm told by my clubs mates they were trying to close the gap whereas the race i did in April they knew they weren't going to close
ourmaninthenorth - Member
Oh, and other than the track, I've only done changangs with the slow line on the inside/kerbside.And as for oldgit's question - the key is a little coaching really. Little hints and tips dropped in here and there in a friendly way and everyone's riding smooth as.
+1
trick is to let the newbies know what they are doing wrong without putting them off.
I used to get shouted at but accepted it as I was being 'told' by the local hero's and wanted to do well. A more sofftly softly approach seems to be required these days (as with everything in this nanny state
A more sofftly softly approach seems to be required these days (as with everything in this nanny state
Hardly. Just his style. Being shouted at to hold a wheel is no good if the reason hasn't been explained. I prefer someone just dropping a hint as they go through say "when you go through try X".
trick is to let the newbies know what they are doing wrong without putting them off.I used to get shouted at but accepted it as I was being 'told' by the local hero's and wanted to do well. A more sofftly softly approach seems to be required these days (as with everything in this nanny state
+1
Regardless of the "debate" ( 😉 ) about direction of changes, the key is just to make sure that everyone is aware and there's some great advice on here. Oldgit, they'll soon pick it up and to be honest I think you're to be commended on your new club start up however frustrating certain aspects of it may be at times to you!
Trickydisco
your mate was right - will depend on the objective.
Also - not much benefit to doing a 'chain' with less than 6 or 7 riders.
Also if lots of bends or tricky course and 5 or 6 of you then better to be in a line with you sheltering and doing 1 turn every 6.
Bet the ferocious pace of the recent 5 man break was more enjoyable than simply tapping through with no real goal.
Nothing like being in a break in RR and everyione working
Oldgit, they'll soon pick it up and to be honest I think you're to be commended on your new club start up however frustrating certain aspects of it may be at times to you!
This^^^^
Lots of people talk about grass roots sport. Very few people do anything about it. Nice one oldgit.
If you get an attractive jersey design, can I join second claim? 🙂
Bet the ferocious pace of the recent 5 man break was more enjoyable than simopky tapping through with no real goal.Nothing like being in a break in RR and everyone working
Yea.. i did enjoy it for 4 laps.. Looking down at my speedo and seeing 25/26mph into wind was a bit crazy
unfortunately they dropped me on the climb and i couldn't stay with them. Hardest race so far. very very tough
If I'm taking up the pace, I go past steadilly that way I can judge exactly the speed I need to be doing to ensure it's a smooth as can be i.e no one needs to ease off or speed up
But if the lead rider peels off then the person behind just needs to keep the exact same pace, just pedal a bit harder.. seems simple to me.
Then again reading the above has made it clear that I know nothing 🙂
Tricky - sounds good.
do less work next time and try and save something. will have done you 'loads' of good, even if you couldnt stay and bridging a gap is often much much harder than getting in the original break (which can be hard in itself).
good luck
drafting/chain gang in a race is a world apart to doing it on a club run.. You ride out of your skin knowing your life depends on staying with them..
Aaw cheers. The greatest frustration for me is seeing the few guys that struggle to keep in touch because of the yo-yo'ing, when I know they'd survive all day if we could keep it together.
If you get an attractive jersey design, can I join second claim
It's a blatant rip off of the Belgians jersey (of whoom I'm a member)only Liquigas green/white/black
OG - The BC coaches have been teaching this recently at the junior Team MK sessions and they have taught the ‘front rider peels off and joins the back’ method.
It's a blatant rip off of the Belgians jersey (of whoom I'm a member)only Liquigas green/white/black
They won't miss you lot out on the road..!
I have nothing really to add, as it's all been said.
But.. I struggle to take seriously anything MW says because of his ridiculous over use of the word "chainy", which just makes you sound like a goon! xx
Our chaingang always changes direction (clockwise or anti) depending on the wind direction. The faster line should be getting sheltered by the slower line in cross winds. I don't see how it makes any difference to on coming traffic as all they see is two lines of riders. No one should be swinging out into the traffic, it's just two lines of smoothly switching riders.
ok, i've never ridden a road bike let alone done a ride on ze road with a load of people.
so instead of forming an opinion on it i figured i'd ask some questions as to understand it better:
why do people take turns at the front?
why dont people talk to each other instead of hand/arm signals?
i'd be happy chilling in the middle chatting to friends 😀
Our local ride adjusts so the that the fast line is getting sheltered by the slow line. It is much harder work if you have to go through on the windy side.
ac282, that is ridiculous! it means you never get a rest as the slow line still has the wind
why do people take turns at the front?
It's much harder to be on the front than riding behind someone (a figure of 30% gets bandied about, but obviously it depends on the wind). If you take turns then rest you can keep the whole group going faster.
why dont people talk to each other instead of hand/arm signals?
Lots of reasons. You might be out of breath, it's hard to hear someone in front of you if you're going 30mph, it's clearer.
Pretty good video demonstrating
cheers finbar 🙂 makes sense!
do people chat when not blasting down a hill at 38mph into a headwind?
do people chat when not blasting down a hill at 38mph into a headwind?
No, talking is forbidden on a road bike. Subtle nods and questionably meaningful looks may be allowed now and then though.
(I don't do roadrage so maybe this is normal, but ...)
I was out on the road bike the other day and a bloke appeared on my back wheel on a level road (he'd just come down a long hill, caught me and then freewheeled, so I heard him arrive). He sat there for a mile and a half on his tribars while I rode my normal pace plus a little bit. Eventually he overtook (sped up to do so) so I sped up and got onto his wheel. He then immediately sat up, turned round & said "sorry mate, this is where I stop" and went up a house drive
1) Cheeky? (considering he sped up to overtake me he can't have been blowing - he was on tribars, so being on the front would've been easier for him than me wouldn't it ?)
2) Why would he overtake literally 20 yards before stopping ? He can't possibly have thought he'd "won" anything, surely ?
Didn't really bother me - apart from losing the tow I was expecting for the next mile or so 🙁 , but I don't get it
but I don't get it
Sounds a bit dumb. Maybe he'd been on a massive ride and was at that point where your brain just stops working.
lol its a serious question realman.... all these signals and subtle movements suggest to a non-roadie that apart from before/after the ride there isnt much socialness going on!
philc - the biggest group I've ridden in was six, and I've only done that twice. You can only really chat when there's somebody next to you, and one or other tends to be passing so not for long
I went out with "DrP's pain & humiliation disappearing fixie roadshow" a few weeks ago and (once I'd worked out WTF was going on) the pointing at potholes etc worked very well - there'd never have been time for us to pass a message down the line.
🙂 cheers again.
might stick to playing in the woods, all sounds too structured for me. i like to be able to stick my feet out and shout "weeeeeeeeeeeeee!" when i go down long hills like a kid.
all these signals and subtle movements suggest to a non-roadie that apart from before/after the ride there isnt much socialness going on!
You do both. The hand signals mean you point out where the hazards are (or indicate to move around an obstacle). You also call out stuff now and again (but too much of this is annoying). Some people point out every ripple in the road (annoying), some people fail to tell you about bike sized potholes (annoying). Some people get it just right. They're the ones you want to ride with, but they tend to be 70 years old, well versed in cycling etiquette and will batter you up and down every hill in the county.
All the time you're either chatting to the rider next to you or gurning, depending on how fit you are/aren't..!
lol its a serious question realman.... all these signals and subtle movements suggest to a non-roadie that apart from before/after the ride there isnt much socialness going on!
Road rides are quite often more social then mtb rides. Go out with a road club on a sunday morning and its usually just MAMILs gossiping for 3+ hours. They just happen to be riding bikes at the same time too. It's a bit tricky talking in traffic or when you're in the pain cave, but for the other 90% of the ride, it's easy. You can even chat with people whilst racing, although I wouldn't recommend long winded discussions. All the social side of mtbing is really in the faffing.
Some people get it just right.
I don't think you have really taken into account how relative the right amount is to the person behind you. Some people with 27mm tyres at 80psi and a brooks on a custom steel frame will ride over anything and not care, other people with a carbon fibre saddle and deep section wheels will want to know if there's a leaf on the road. IMO, it's better to point out too much then too little.
yeh, agreed - road is just to get fit in my case. I don't get lots of free time so in a free hour, ride on the road is 50 min "hard" riding then a quick shower. MTB would be a shorter ride, more bike cleaning, and less hard effort = even fatter scaredy*
... so I ride mtbs for fun instead 😀
(*I'd try running but it's kack)
njee20 - MemberBut.. I struggle to take seriously anything MW says because of his ridiculous over use of the word "chainy", which just makes you sound like a goon! xx
😆
AHHHH i getsya 🙂
glad to hear there is chatting and social side of it, can see the benefit of road riding with regards to fitness when out in the woods.... been off the mtb for 5 weeks after fracturing my shoulder and in that time i've probably spent about 3-4 hours in total on the crappy exercise bike at the gym.
its boring... but its not stop-start-stop-start so when i went around the block on my bike yesterday to see if i remembered how to ride i was miles ahead of mrsconsequence who's been putting in about 8-10 hours a week on the hills since i've been off the bike.
even when i'm back to riding the rough stuff i think i might keep up the occasional blast on the exercise bike as part of my gym efforts. i'd expect people to step in and suggest spinning/buying a road bike or turbo trainer at this point... so to pre-empt those suggestions: i can't afford another bike, and my gym is tiny and doesnt do spinning.
I'd recommend having a look for some sort of routine, otherwise it might get very boring very quickly. Something like a sprint session would get you very fit, and you're usually in too much pain to worry about boredom.
The bit I don't get is the outrage that seems to posted on internet forums when people don't do a turn. It's almost as if people don't want to work hard and get fitter and faster?
I mean the tri bar guy, who's he cheating; only himself?
I've ridden in a group a while ago where someone would be off the back on all the inclines for 50 miles, then come flying past on the last 10 miles downhill after sand bagging all ride. Annoying? Yes! But because I wanted to be on the front working hard, rather than being sheltered. The problem is, if someone does that, how do you go back past them a minute later without them thinking it's now a race or that you're a ****er?
on the last 10 miles downhill
10 miles downhill? Sure he wasn't just heavier then everyone else?
how do you go back past them a minute later without them thinking it's now a race or that you're a ****?
Just let em go. I mentioned on another post. I was winding down a little, one to bring the group together and two, we had a major climb coming up. Then a young man came past - wow! and did that annoying thing of sitting up. My whole group went past him as soon as the hill kicked in. Some folk just don't think it through.
But because I wanted to be on the front working hard, rather than being sheltered.
One reason that I found club runs to be almost pointless for real fitness improvements, especially if there's 30+ in a group - by the time you do a turn, you've sat on for 50 miles. Chaingangs better, but only if going for it and a decent distance.
Given my (lack of) proximity to most of the riding my club does these days, and being a new parent, the riding I do - very limited of late - is done solo. There's nothing boring about forcing a fat unfit body to try to remember how to ride at or above evens for a couple of hours when you're out on your own.
halington + 1
Ridden with a few pros over the years and that's how they all do/did it.
ac282, that is ridiculous! it means you never get a rest as the slow line still has the wind
It is harder on the slow line but it keeps through and off going much better as it encourages riders to go into the faster line to get out of the wind and makes it much easier to come through at the front.
I've never thought of it as dangerous but we don't tend to go through and off on busy roads anyway.
ourmaninthenorth: what exactly do you mean by riding at "evens"? Above 20mph?
I wish there was such an elaborate system of rules and etiquette to learn before going out on a mountain bike ride - it would make it so much more fun.
This thread is actually putting me off group riding...
ourmaninthenorth: what exactly do you mean by riding at "evens"? Above 20mph?
Evens = 20mph. I'll find out why it's called that and report back...
I wish there was such an elaborate system of rules and etiquette to learn before going out on a mountain bike ride - it would make it so much more fun.
You mean stuff like going to right way at trail centres, whether an Audi is an acceptable mode of transport to and from said trail centres, the use of bar ends, tyres/valves, checking out someone's bike before deciding whether they are the *right* sort of person to speak to, moaning that "roadies" are miserable, eschewing lycra, etc.... 😉
I'll find out why it's called that and report back...
Some googling suggests "it's because it always has been", and possibly relates to going under 30 minutes for 10 miles.
I'm seeing some of the old guard from my club at the weekend. I'll ask them. Now, they were a bunch of hardmen - ride 20 miles to start of road race, race for 70 miles, ride home. None of this "what Audi for trail centre riding?" for them..!
it's not as bad as people make out. Our club ride is fairly relaxed and as long as point out pot holes or stuff that could make you fall off then it's cool.
In a race or chain gang training ride then it's a different story. you need to know how to ride smoothly, draft properly and in a group safely otherwise you'll take people out
😀But yes, nothing pisses me off more than the smart-arse that's been sandbagging for several miles coming through and dropping the group.
Recent first experience with group riding (same sportive as dirtygirlonabike). After a first mostly solo 50 miles, got involved with a group, took a while to realise my little adjustments to pace and position might be a bit alarming to those behind me, so settled down.
Couldn't get pace right at all though, found them slow on the climbs and actually left them on the first climb, only to be caught again later. Every time I tried a turn on front I just wasted everyone's time by misjudging pace and pulling away. The folk at the front of the rest of the group seemed experienced enough not to keep trying to make up the gap, they just sat and watched as I ended up out by myself again before being caught, hanging off the back, then repeating the whole sorry process again. They dropped me in the end. 🙄
That's what i was trying to say earlier - its very difficult for those new group riding to judge pace/effort/know when to pull in, especially if they come through from the back. At an APR in March, the group i was with yelled clear every time a rider cleared the wheel in front but it was blooming hard at 21mph on the front.Every time I tried a turn on front I just wasted everyone's time by misjudging pace and pulling away
I've ridden various different ways in a bunch, but i hate when its unorganised/the rider from the back comes to the front rather than the one at the front peeling off because the pace will generally change/jump, unless the person from the back has judged when to pull in perfectly.
the group i was with yelled clear every time a rider cleared the wheel in front but it was blooming hard at 21mph on the front.
That would do my head in.
The folk at the front of the rest of the group seemed experienced enough not to keep trying to make up the gap, they just sat and watched as I ended up out by myself
Yep, treat em like a naughty puppy, don't go after them.
What's odd is I didn't realise it was ever an issue until I rode with a bunch on the Rapha who flapped and screamed all day. Then the following week with a 70 year old ex GB roadman whom I could have ridden all day with tyre to tyre without a word ever being exchanged.
People will be wearing black socks next, and leaving the house with frayed cables. 🙄
🙂People will be wearing black socks next, and leaving the house with frayed cables
Yep, treat em like a naughty puppy, don't go after them.
😀
OK, so taking the etiquette one step further, if nobody on the front seems inclined to pull over (I was generally sitting off the shoulder of one of the leaders) does that give you licence just to sit there?
I only accelerated to the front the way I was doing because the leaders would have just sat there all day otherwise, which didn't seem fair, I was glad to draft but didn't want to feel like a freeloader.
If people seem happy to sit on the front all day, might as well let them. Could always just have asked though. Although if they're bringing the pace down, go round them.
13thfloormonk. Depends on the ride really, if it's just a steady ride like a reliability trial then I'd be happy to sit on front all day. If it were a training run I'd put in more effort and need a break at some point.
Seems to me (non-roadie) that regardless of the length of the turn at the front, the thing that then HAS to happen is that the front man "drops off", rather than the second guy speeding up - that's just going to make gaps and is a daft idea, surely ?