Hi,
A while ago I snapped my frame while bike camping. I had owned it from new but it was out of warranty.
My lbs I bought it from contacted the importer but they no longer stocked the rear triangle. The lbs then contacted the company and the importer and managed to get me a great deal on a new frame.
I received an email from the importer confirming the offer.
6 months later (xl was out of stock) my lbs got an invoice which I then paid direct to the importer. We received a delivery notice but no frame.
It turns out the delivery was pulled by a manager as the price had changed. A week later I get an email that due to rising costs the price has increased by £525 plus vat.
Tbh at the original price I would have been happy but at the new price I can get something I really want with a better warranty than 2 years.
So, I have now passed on the new offer.
Where do I stand? They offered me a price, they sent me an invoice, I paid the invoice and then they refused to send it at that price.
I pretty much know I have no leg to stand on but just wondered if anyone out there has any advice for me who is better qualified than me.
Ive not named the company but if you look at my history it's not hard to work out who I am talking about.
Thanks
Also, any recommendations for a 29er full suss around 120 suspension?
Not an expert, but once you've paid, they accepted the order and a contract is formed? If they'd refused payment then you'd have no legs to pursue it...
Definitely not an expert either, but did touch on the basics of contract law during my studies...
The price and the goods to be supplied was all agreed, and the transaction took place.
They then change their mind because they want more money? Nope, I wouldn't be accepting that - everything was agreed and paid, and remained that way for a period of time too.
Name and shame once you're decided on the course of action and completed it to your satisfaction.
[s]If you paid and the LBS didn't send on the money in a timely fashion then the LBS should be making up the shortfall.[/s] Ignore always read it thoroughly when commenting.
Again you want proper advice and I know nothing, so apologies, but I'd imagine there's some t&c in their favour to state that it's only binding when delivery of goods has been exchanged.
I know this as back in the day I ordered pro evolution soccer online for something stupid like £1.99 when it had just been released on Play.com (remember them?!) or maybe HMV. Anyway this got around to all my mates and we all bought copies at what was around 5% of the retail price. They then emailed saying that despite paying they were under no compulsion to agree to this as the exchange of goods or something hadn't taken place*
*although in this happy story they emailed to acknowledge their mistake, to tell me they didn't have to honour it but that they were going to out of goodwill
Personally the contract is binding and they can't change their mind given that you have already paid. I would send an email to Salsa explaining the case, I'm pretty sure they would take a dim view of Raleigh's behaviour here assuming that it was the importer that is messing you around. Unless I've got all my wires crossed!?
IANAL but my impression/belief/experience-formed-misconceptions are...
Difficult one if its been pulled up the line, your contract is with the lbs not the importer if that's who you're "buying" from regardless of who you paid your money to.
The lbs will get it from the importer on very different terms than you as a retail customer/individual get and are entitled to.
If you're buying from the importer (i.e. that invoice you paid is to you not the lbs) your rights are very different than they will be if you're buying from the lbs and they have been let down by the importer.
As above though, exchange of title on distance selling stuff is on receipt of goods (possibly payment if that's after receipt, but I believe that's remarkably hard to enforce, at least b2b).
How long between invoice and (non) despatch?
It's worth taking up with the manufacturer though as good will on their part is likely key to a happy resolution. Hate to say it but facebook/twitter to the importer first* is probably your best route
*After an email and phone call obviously but i imagine you're done that already.
"my lbs got an invoice which I then paid direct to the importer"
That's the key bit. no distance/internet selling, they have offered you a product at a price and you have accept and paid in full on time, to the importer, direct.
They owe you a frame.
IANAL but i do know that is "distance" [lbs to importer] and not face to face
I will be surprised if the law is not on their side though morality is on your side
Distance selling regs don't stand for B2B, otherwise shops could order £11k bikes and then return them after 2 weeks. good luck trying that.
Isn't this essentially the same as those not-too-infrequent cases where big websites have cocked up and loads of people order a new telly for £5 instead of £500, and pay, and then the company goes "no, we cocked up on the price, we're cancelling" and you get your money back?
In which case, I'd guess that's pretty uch where you stand.
IANAL
"Isn't this essentially the same as those not-too-infrequent cases where big websites have cocked up"
No. the importer had chance to check/advise on stock before taking payment.
[quote=edlong ]Isn't this essentially the same as those not-too-infrequent cases where big websites have cocked up and loads of people order a new telly for £5 instead of £500, and pay, and then the company goes "no, we cocked up on the price, we're cancelling" and you get your money back?
IANAL, but no - they can do that because it's a genuine error, and a genuine error is a valid reason to cancel a contract. There appears to be no error in the OP's case, they've simply changed their mind.
The crucial question is at what point the contract is formed, for which you probably need a proper lawyer (or at least a proper lawyer providing free advice on here).
[quote=njee20 ]Distance selling regs don't stand for B2B, otherwise shops could order £11k bikes and then return them after 2 weeks. good luck trying that.
stands corrected/better informed
Its not like a mistake with the pricing on a website though, thats aimed at when a decimal point type error results in a very cheap price. Not where someone accepts payment and then decides they want to up the price by 15%.
Did the OP pay by credit card? They might fight your corner...
The point here is he's not got a contract with the distributor/importer unless they sold it to him.
His contract is with the lbs if they sold it to him.
It's akin to buying a tv from Dixon's that Sony then decide they won't supply at the price Dixon's were going to pay them, so Dixon's say sorry mate no tv. Here is your money back.* You wouldn't get far expecting Sony to shift because Dixon's sold it to you.
At best he can drag the lbs over the coals but they've acted in good faith (and coincidently not taken his money*, hes GIVEN that to someone else) but the op has no leverage on the importer in terms of contract because they didn't sell it to him.
Does the op work in the trade for the lbs in question ?
[quote=dangeourbrain ]The point here is he's not got a contract with the distributor/importer unless they sold it to him.
Maybe. But in that case the LBS has a contract with the distributor. Sony can't decide not to supply the TV if they have agreed a price and already been paid (whether Dixons or the end customer paid is immaterial). Because the contract has been fully agreed at that point.
Originally my lbs got in touch as a favour to a loyal customer, they were under no obligation. But when it took so and they probably got fed up of me nagging them they advised me to contact the importer myself which I did.
I then dealt with them direct. My lbs have not really been involved.
When they were sent the invoice they passed it to me to deal with direct.
Tbh I think you are right. There's probably some small print somewhere.
Im annoyed that the price has shot up so much. I understand brexit has caused problems with the exchange rate etc but from November to February the price increases by £525 plus vat is a bit staggering.
They morally owe you a frame. You can't make them sell it to you.
Instead you will get a refund. Buy something else, and let them know.
let us know who the brand is as well so we can be aware were we to consider purchasing one of their products
You can't make them sell it to you.
The shop only having a pro-forma account certainly doesn't help
Blah blah blah, back and forth, ends up in court, bike company refunds you, magistrate says case closed - whatever anyone says you can't make someone sell you something they don't want to, morally and commercially they have effed up but legally only have to refund you. If they had actually supplied the goods to you then that is a different case. Clearly IANAL
yeah, who is it?
[quote=Dickyboy ]Blah blah blah, back and forth, ends up in court, bike company refunds you, magistrate says case closed - whatever anyone says you can't make someone sell you something they don't want to, morally and commercially they have effed up but legally only have to refund you. If they had actually supplied the goods to you then that is a different case. Clearly IANAL
Well you're not, and neither am I*, but I do know enough to see that we're not necessarily into normal retail contract law here. Because the important point is contract law - if a contract has been formed then he is legally entitled to more than his money back, he is entitled to what has been agreed in the contract, and if the other party will not supply that then he is entitled to compensation for what he has lost.
* though I have just got off the phone with my solicitor regarding a contract I have in place where I hope I understand the law fairly well - something totally unrelated, but worth a LOT more money.
You do now.
Aracer - compensation for what he has lost? So he doesn't have a bicycle = zero compensation, you can waffle on all you like about contract law, still amounts to nothing
Contract law doesn't amount to nothing - I hope I have a slightly better understanding of it than you do (I'd certainly be surprised if you have as much of a vested interest in the intricacies of it). You certainly can be entitled to compensation if a company/person breaks a contract whether or not supply of goods is involved or any physical transaction has taken place.
He has lost the use of a frame he was contractually entitled to be supplied with (if there is a contract in place), the value of that frame would appear to be what the company now want him to pay for it, not what he actually has paid for it.
Assuming you have a refund I'd just walk
The trouble is that if you have formed believe you've formed a contract and they believe they have't then what? Are you going to take money out of your pocket and hand it to a solicitor?
aracer have you gone mad? He's formed a contract (verbal, for extra funsies) with the bike shop, not the supplier. Let's face it the value of "use" of a frame for recreational purposes is still naff all. Are you suggesting he lawyers up? Otherwise you do just seem to be waffling on
I read that as there being a "contract" between the shop and Raleigh, otherwise the OP would have been invoiced directly.Originally my lbs got in touch as a favour to a loyal customer, they were under no obligation. But when it took so and they probably got fed up of me nagging them they advised me to contact the importer myself which I did.I then dealt with them direct. My lbs have not really been involved.
When they were sent the invoice they passed it to me to deal with direct.
Aracer - the guy [s]is[/s] was buying a bike frame, no written contract and even if there was I doubt the supplier would have any terms that offer compensation other than full refund for non supply
Contracts don't have to be written, that's one of the important points here.
No shit. But he should be getting a legal team together now yes? Also, his verbal contract was with the shop. Does he start legal action against them?
[quote=legend ]Also, his verbal contract was with the shop.
Are you sure about that? He claims to have dealt directly with the importer, and paid them directly (which is an important point in terms of contract formation - contracts don't have to be written or verbal!)
Yes but the only agreed or implied contract terms are that they supply the OP with bike frame X for price Y in a reasonable timescale, they have broken the terms of sale but other than a refund there are no terms and conditions agreed giving any further redress unless the OP agreed otherwise, which I'd bet my house on being extremely unlikely 😆
I paid Raleigh promptly on the 23rd of February. They promised a refund yesterday but as yet, nothing so I guess it's going to be Monday at the earliest.
In the end I asked Raleigh if they could offer me a different frame as I had waited 6 months. Perhaps at a discounted price (if you don't ask you don't get)
I thought the reply was funny. Since ison stopped selling salsa they seem to have struggled with importing. Unfortunately, with the service I've received I don't think salsa will have much luck in the uk. Thankfully Charlie the bike monger has a first class service.
Raleighs reply:
"Sadly we don’t have any other framesets in XL currently. With regards to frames we only really stock Salsa, generally we don’t tend to stock XL’s as we find we simply don’t sell many.
As such currently we simply don’t have any, again sorry about this."
In defence of Raleigh the bloke I had dealings with was pretty good but it was his manager that caused the issue. I think he was as annoyed as me in the end.
Change the thread title to "Shit service from Raleigh" and walk away, i reckon.
I really don't understand companies pissing off customers for relatively little money in this day and age. Unless they subscribe to the any publicity is good publicity school of thought.
Samsonite or Delsey?
what frame is it? contact the manufacturer directly