You may have seen in magazines and online the idea that riders who want to maximise their bike's longness, lowness and slackness are "sizing up". And as you design bikes you may want to make that option as accessible to them as possible.
If you do, please don't forget to ensure that your bikes' sizes are still suitable for the people they're designed for. Don't, for example, shorten the seat tube on your XL frames so much that a 6'3" rider can't get the saddle high enough even when the bike is specced with a 425mm long seatpost and you claim that your XLs are suitable for riders up to 6'5"
Or in other words, Whyte your XL 905 is actually a very long L and don't pretend that it's anything else. That was a bit of a wasted demo ride. Bah, humbug.
ChrisXL surely?
Ignore him bike designers, make the seat tubes short as you can please.
🙂
perchypanther - Member
ChrisXL surely?
🙂 My middle name is not Xavier.
chakaping - Member
Ignore him bike designers, make the seat tubes short as you can please.
🙂
Or they could actually make the bikes long enough for a given rider height/seat tube.
Oooh while we're on....
Can we have a new wheel size please (?) , bored of the current ones
and hub width, that'd be smashing
and BB type
also headsets have remained pretty static for a while, 2.5" steerers maybe..
Oddly enough on a ride yesterday two chaps behind me were making similar comments in the opposite direction. They liked that Bird made long frames with low seat tubes and standover so you could fit longer dropper posts on them.
While I kind of agree I was wondering if it would cause issues for taller people who maybe don't use a dropper and struggle to find a normal seat post to fit.
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It's obviously a SRAM led conspiracy to sell more 150mm+ Reverbs.
I'm in to be fair, I think my new bike is short by current standards, but I'd rather have a nice long dropper than an uber long bike, especially on a hardtail.
I like long dropper posts, my Mega has a 170mm Reverb on it, but the important thing is that as I'm tall I still need a long seat tube. It's not like I have the option to size up - that 19" so called XL is the largest size the Whyte 905 is available in, and according to their web site is supposed to be good for riders up to 6'5".
If you do, please don't forget to ensure that your bikes' sizes are still suitable for the people they're designed for. Don't, for example, shorten the seat tube on your XL frames so much that a 6'3" rider can't get the saddle high enough even when the bike is specced with a 425mm long seatpost and you claim that your XLs are suitable for riders up to 6'5"
I think what you meant to type was: "Please spec 170mm Reverbs which are 480mm long, on XL bikes".
I can't size up because I've got stumpy legs.
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prawny - Member
I can't size up because I've got stumpy legs.
It sounds like we both want the same thing (bikes that are an appropriate length for their seat tube size), but for different reasons.
It sounds like we both want the same thing (bikes that are an appropriate length for their seat tube size), but for different reasons.
This means different things to riders of different leg lengths though.
+1 for longer dropper posts being the solution.
If you've got a dropper post, why do you need the seat tube to be as short as possible?
Is it actually just a fashion thing?
Personally I agree with the OP. At 6'5" I want a frame that means I dont have to have a silly long seatpost sticking out of the frame. Ta.
If you've got a dropper post, why do you need the seat tube to be as short as possible?
So I can get low enough on the bike on steep slopes, ta.
bigyinn - Member
If you've got a dropper post, why do you need the seat tube to be as short as possible?
Is it actually just a fashion thing?
You need about 200mm of exposed seatpost to fit even a 125mm droper on. My 17" frame looks tiny to me, but it's still touch and go whether I could fit a 150mm drop post on, and I couldn't put a 170mm on
I'm making do with 120mm at the moment, it's 20mm more than I had, and leaves me with post spare for a crud raceguard.
i'm with the OP on this.
if the seatpost is less than 510mm, no amount of silly bendy* seatpost will help me.
and i'm not even that tall.
(*and i'm not even that heavy)
For reference, here's my XL (20") Mega:
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7372/27020018133_98a4ced55f_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7372/27020018133_98a4ced55f_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
That's a 170mm Reverb in there. There's still plenty of seat post showing even with it fully dropped. Somebody my height doesn't need a bike with a 19" seat tube in order to be able to fit a long dropper.
If I paid about 300 quid for another 170mm Reverb then I'd have a seat post long enough that I could ride an XL Whyte 905 fairly comfortably. That seems like a steep cost to be able to ride a bike that's apparently sized for someone my height to begin with.
Making long bikes with relatively short seat tubes is fine but either admit you're not making an actual XL frame, or make one that is actually suitable for tall riders. Don't make a Large and pretend that it's XL, just because it's long.
That doesn't look that big at all.
You must be huuuuuge.
I'm 6'3", maybe 6'4". The 29" wheels help make it look a little better proportioned than it otherwise would. So does dropping the post.
Compare and contrast with a 26" wheel bike:
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7196/6970949841_5de50219fd_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7196/6970949841_5de50219fd_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Dear riders of weird proportions,
We're sad that your freakish bodies don't fit our bikes that are designed to fit the majority of people within a standard deviation or two, based on what they said they wanted fit wise a couple of years ago.
If you hate our efforts so much, feel free to go custom. Were sure you'll be better at it than us.
Kind regards,
Bike designers.
To be fair you do have the longest legs in the world Chris, I'm just under 6'5" and you have the seat higher than I do!
To be fair you do have the longest legs in the world Chris, I'm just under 6'5" and you have the seat higher than I do!
I've been amazed by the variances in saddle heights between riders of the same height - or the sameness in saddle height between riders of very different height. I'm 5'10.5" and I recently hopped onto a friend's XC bike to see how it handled, expecting to have to lower the saddle to ride it. He had his saddle at exactly the same height as me - and he's almost 6'3"!
I demand that you immediately restore to me the missing length from my legs !
tomhoward - Member
Dear riders of weird proportions,We're sad that your freakish bodies don't fit our bikes that are designed to fit the majority of people within a standard deviation or two, based on what they said they wanted fit wise a couple of years ago.
If you hate our efforts so much, feel free to go custom. Were sure you'll be better at it than us.
Kind regards,
Bike designers.
While I'm not delighted that some bike companies choose not to cater for riders of my height and only provide frame sizes up to Large, I accept that. I know I need an XL frame and that's what I look for.
What annoyed me with the Whyte 905 is that they say they provide an XL frame and that it's suitable for my height (the web site says the XL is for heights 6’2? – 6’5?), but it's just not the case. In attempting to increase the size's appeal in a secondary market (people who want to size up) they've neglected the people for whom the XL frame was their only option.
bigjim - Member
To be fair you do have the longest legs in the world Chris, I'm just under 6'5" and you have the seat higher than I do!
People call you Stumpy Legs Jim behind your back, didn't you know? 🙂
For mountain bikes seat tube length is a daft measurement for mountain bike sizes. Short, medium, long and longest will do.
I'll voice the opposing opinion - I'm 6' and getting a Large Aeris 145 which has a whopping 655mm ETT (and I still might like a little more length on it) yet I could only just manage with the 150mm Reverb all the way into the frame, so I'll be getting a 125mm dropper when it arrives.
mcnultycop - Member
For mountain bikes seat tube length is a daft measurement for mountain bike sizes. Short, medium, long and longest will do.
It isn't the only dimension that's important, but it is relevant.
Did you contact Whyte about this or are you hoping they'll find it here?
Just venting. But even when I'm irritated it appears I can't rant effectively. 🙂
You can't argue with one thing- Whyte sell the bike as suitable for up to 6'5, Chris is within the size limit but the seatpost is past minimum insertion. That's obvious bullshit. And it's inconsistent across Whyte's range so how does something that works for one bike not work for another?
But longer posts do change things a bit, basically it's desirable to have more exposed seatpost than it used to be, as long as it doesn't kill the frame. Which this bike, as sold, probably will.
I wasn't being a smartarse. I try to send feedback to bike companies when I think it might be helpful, I expect Whyte would give you an honest reply.
chakaping - Member
I wasn't being a smartarse. I try to send feedback to bike companies when I think it might be helpful, I expect Whyte would give you an honest reply.
Good point. I'll give it some thought, but it's much easier to write a grumpy post on a forum than write a polite but firm formal message to a bike company.
Forget seat tube length, low bottom brackets are starting to wind me up.
As it's been a bit soggy I've been mostly riding my old bikes and forgot just how nice it is to Pedal at a decent cadence when I want, rather than when I think I can get away with it.
Tom are you a bike designer?
Dear riders of weird proportions,We're sad that your freakish bodies don't fit our bikes that are designed to fit the majority of people within a standard deviation or two, based on what they said they wanted fit wise a couple of years ago.
If you hate our efforts so much, feel free to go custom. Were sure you'll be better at it than us.
Kind regards,
Bike designers.
That's silly on an amazing number of levels
All he is saying is XL bikes are for the tall. If the seat post is only 19" that does sound very short for rider of my height. My current bike is a virtual 21.5" but Actually 20.5". That leaves me with alot of post out
I remember the days when bike we've regularly slammed in reviews for having too low bottom brackets. Like less than a foot.
The world has gone mad, I tell thee.
The problem is a lot worst when your an xc rider or don't use a dropper!
My last bike was a Giant XTC 29er which was supposed to be a 22" frame but worked out as a 20.5.
It did fit me pretty well.
Just bought a custom ti hardtail and actually told them to lengthen the seat tube!
I typically avoid L or XL frames with 19" seat tubes because of the seat post being on the limit!
Come on frame manufacturers size up in the seat tube as well as the top tube!
Max
Dear bike shops… please offer customers longer seatposts with your XL bikes.
Dear bike designers… keep at it with proper length toptubes, and let me slam that saddle low, please.
Im with the OP on this. 6 months ago i was in the market for a new bike. Half of the potential bikes were ruled out as they were just too small in XL - some XLs are only go up to 6'2" - that's a medium to us normal sized folk. Another factor is who tests these bigger frames? I know Nukeproof (sorry OP) didn't have tall riders giving feedback on the Mega above. A riding buddy (tall as me 2 6'5") had a prolonged test ride on the new 290 and on his suggestions they stopped frame production to make design alterations. You just can't scale up a medium frame and call it XL - well you can and most do but it's luck if if works as well as it could. One of the reasons I went with Cotic is that Cy is tall enough to know what us tallies need.
6'5" - 6'6" riders - what's your bb axle to saddle top dist?
ChrisL Whytes 29er series has proper size seat tubes if you fancied that.
[i]If I paid about 300 quid for another 170mm Reverb then I'd have a seat post long enough that I could ride an XL Whyte 905 fairly comfortably. That seems like a steep cost to be able to ride a bike that's apparently sized for someone my height to begin with.[/I]
tbh I've always had to buy a longer seatpost than came standard, currently have a large Camber 29 and have swapped out the Command Post for a 170mm Reverb as I was past the minimum insertion level.
I'm only 6'2" but have long legs, still got +50mm of seatpost showing.
It sounds like it's just something you need to budget for, and if buying new then a negotiation with the dealer.
renton - Member
ChrisL Whytes 29er series has proper size seat tubes if you fancied that.
I'm aware of that and they're on my list, but the specs they have aren't particularly what I'm after and there's no frame only option.
kelvin - Member
Dear bike shops… please offer customers longer seatposts with your XL bikes.
Dear bike designers… keep at it with proper length toptubes, and let me slam that saddle low, please.
Or how about the bike designers made Lg bikes long enough for tall riders and XL bikes long enough for very tall riders? Then they could make the seat tubes the right length on both frames.
Expecting bike shops to swap out seatposts has probably become a bit more awkward since some seat posts have started costing in the region of 300 quid. Particularly if that means shops having to offer > 425mm seatposts, which are still not particularly common.
I'm aware of that and they're on my list, but the specs they have aren't particularly what I'm after and there's no frame only option.
It is a pain I agree but isnt it fun swapping bits out for stuff you actually want.
The 629 looks decent for the money but the colour is pants.
I know Nukeproof (sorry OP) didn't have tall riders giving feedback on the Mega above. A riding buddy (tall as me 2 6'5") had a prolonged test ride on the new 290 and on his suggestions they stopped frame production to make design alterations.
Interestingly, the large Mega 290 is one of the few proper long bikes with a low enough seat tube for me.
Cotic's large FSers are too high though.
Maybe that's because of the fixes that Euro's mate insisted on?
Or how about the bike designers made Lg bikes long enough for tall riders and XL bikes long enough for very tall riders? Then they could make the seat tubes the right length on both frames.
do the frame proportions stay the same as you go through the sizes? Ie whats a large or med seatube length? As a man with tiny legs and a long body I have completely the opposite issue. Quite like the idea of a bike with a 15 inch seat tube in a medium, as opposed to the standard 18 inch.
Maybe that's because of the fixes that Euro's mate insisted on?
I thought he was implying that they made the seat tubes longer.
I thought he was implying that they made the seat tubes longer.
It'll not be on the current frames but the next batch will have a few tweaks. The seat tube wasn't the issue - more the front end being too high. So shorter headtube and a few other minor tweaks
,jameso - Member
6'5" - 6'6" riders - what's your bb axle to saddle top dist?
XL bikes being too small, Come across this problem myself and I'm only 187 (6'2") saddle height is 82cm axle to top!
We [b]stumpy legged chimps [/b]shouldn't have to saw off the top of the seat-tube, just to prevent those with longer legs or shorter bodies (or the shop, or manufacturers) from having to fit a seatpost in proportion to their legs.
In the bad old days, we'd have to fit a longer stem to get a good fit… which has detrimental effects on handling… where as you having to use a longer post has a fairly neutral effect on how much fun the bike is to ride, no?
Euro - Member
It'll not be on the current frames but the next batch will have a few tweaks. The seat tube wasn't the issue - more the front end being too high. So shorter headtube and a few other minor tweaks
Weird. The [url= http://nukeproof.com/products/mega-290-team-2016/ ]2016 XL Nukeproof Mega 290[/url] has a 110mm head tube, which is pretty damn short by the standards of any XL frame I've looked at head tube lengths for. Only 10mm longer than the head tube on the S and M frames too.
That's a personal bug-bear of mine, head tubes on XL bikes not being long enough.
I'm 6'2. I currently ride a 16" frame with a 200mm dropper post (27.2). Doesn't really go high enough for full roadie jaunts, but does the job. Unfortunately, the post is on its last legs, so I'm having to move to a much taller modern frame. I got all excited by this thread, but looks like Whyte isn't really long\low enough for me either (and there's no frame-only option) - what's wrong with frames with significantly longer reach than seat tube (current is 423 vs 405mm - thats the sorta thing I want)
[I]I'm 6'2. I currently ride a 16" frame with a 200mm dropper post (27.2).[/I]
I'm also 6'2" and I've just measured my 2 bikes, both sat at 830mm from BB to saddle top.
By your reckoning you've got only 606mm - so either:
1 you've very bent legs when pedalling and/or don't pedal just go DH
2 long, long cranks
3 very short legs
84cm from bb centre to saddle top here, my XL 29er XC bike has a 400mm post in it right on the insertion line. I'd be stuffed if the frame were any lower, and it's not even 'modern' geometry (the 120mm stem indicates that 😀 )
Weird. The 2016 XL Nukeproof Mega 290 has a 110mm head tube, which is pretty damn short by the standards of any XL frame I've looked at head tube lengths for. Only 10mm longer than the head tube on the S and M frames too.
Not weird - i just assumed (i know, i know) that making the head tube shorter would be one of the changes to lower the front. Will ask for more details when i next see him as im not sure how they're going about it but they are doing it for next year.
Nicolai Argon GLF as it looks like you are eying up a hardtail. 500mm ST, 495mm reach, 680mm ETT.
I am looking for a hardtail, but not for one whose frame costs €1,449.00! 😮
The OP does have a point, I'm only 5' 9" but bought my latest bike in L because I knew the seat tube wouldn't be a problem, sizing a bike L these days does seem to result in just a longer bike rather an overall bigger bike in everyway (head tube, seat tube etc) for the taller rider.
I`Mm 6ft 4 seat top to bb centre is 86cm
I'm also 6'2" and I've just measured my 2 bikes, both sat at 830mm from BB to saddle top.By your reckoning you've got only 606mm - so either:
1 you've very bent legs when pedalling and/or don't pedal just go DH
2 long, long cranks
3 very short legs
so just measured my bike up - 770mm (+/-5mm) from bb centre to saddle. I think the remaining is made up of the dropper collar, clamp and saddle stack.
Add to that the fact I ride flats not spuds (probably 20mm in stack?) and I stated its not a full-roadie position (ie, could go a couple of cm higher, but I don't want for that off-road) and we're within 20mm of each other, which could easily be leg length. Maybe you've just got a stumpy body 😉
That's a personal bug-bear of mine, head tubes on XL bikes not being long enough.
And me, it's the first thing I look at on a geo chart these days. Not long enough on an XL frame - what else has the designer got wrong?
I finally got round to measuring my bike - about 84cm from BB centre to saddle top, measured to the bit of the saddle above where the saddle rails are clamped.
Funny how the forum's resident bike designers are staying quiet on this one.
Shirley on a long travel 29er the top of the head tube is way high anyway even if you make the HT as short as you can. People who want more height can run a few spacers or riser bars easy enough, people who want it lower can run flat bars (though may have bar furniture fouling the top tube issues).
I demand longer top tubes and seat tubes, but shorter head tubes! 😀
Seriously, the main thing that puts me off using XL frames with a shorter stem is the fact that I'd have to use a stem that points directly down at the ground to get the right drop. So as it is I'm stuck with a 110mm -17deg stem on a large frame, and a colossal amount of seatpost showing.
I am very, very 'XC'