[Closed] David Turner's View on E-Bikes

“

I do wonder about the pain merchants. When you go for a 20/40/60 miles cycle, do you not feel like your are cheating when you could have ran that? There’s always more pain you can inflict on yourselves.

Ultra runners everywhere must be looking down their noses at you! 😆”

In answer to your question.

Yes, and I love running more than I’ve ever loved bikes and get far more reward from a 30/40 mile day in the Highlands than I’ve ever got from a bike in any scenario.

At least there’s no (I think) e trainers, although graphene or whatever seems to be kicking up a fuss.

Geek, i understand you don't like me, but would you care to explain why my comments are "ignorant"?

We already have "bad press" from people riding purely pedal powered mountain bikes coming into direct conflict with walkers and riders on all forms of our off road public access network.  Today, off road motorcyclists have born the brunt of the bad press, however, as soon as you "assist" a pedal bike with  a motor, then it's moved from a purely human powered device (and hence arguably closer to walking) to a "motor" bike, arguably closer to being driven/ridden.

We can argue till we are blue in the face that the legals situation defines pedal assist bikes of limited power to still be "pedal cycles" but i'm going to suggest that people with a point to make won't bother explaining those subtleties when an incident between say a rambler and a eBiker occurs.......

Anyhow, just back a wee run to up and over the whangie path, up the rocky stuff to the trig point, back down the grassy bit at the back. Aye... it's still tough, ebike or not! 😆 much easier mind, but still tough, particular on the techy sections!

It's all getting out, which is the point, lovely day. 🙂

Mon the ebikes!

[img] [/img]

when an incident between say a rambler and a eBiker occurs…….

I've never ran into a walker in my puff, not about to start now!

I don't dislike you in the slightest Max... I don't know you. It just so happens you spout an awful lot of stuff that's complete rubbish and I have occasionally pulled you up over it. It's not personal.

 ignorance

(noun)
lack of knowledge or information.

Please start your path to knowledge by looking at a map of the UK. Then when you've worked out what's north of Carlisle/Berwick upon Tweed. Have another look at the outdoor access laws for that (rather large) area.

I'm not going to argue with any of the rest of what you just typed as it's a completely farcical fantasist over reaction and again massively lacking knowledge of the subject matter.

The average Emtb rider is not as quick as an elite XC athlete on a normal XC mtb on the flat or uphill and despite the assistance still won't have the ability to cover the same range. Downhill an emtb is right around the same speed as a similar mtb and the assist cuts out at 15mph. With this taken into consideration how is the assist going to cause a rambler any more harm than a fit rider not paying attetion or riding like a dick?
Your *argument* makes no sense.

Still not sure why that’s “hilarious”

To me it was. Humour is a personal thing.

the assist cuts out at 15mph.

There's an app for that.

To me it was. Humour is a personal thing.

Yep. Guess it must be.

I would assume there are lots of  people I am familiar with that you haven’t heard of.  Not exactly side splitting comedy though.

Each to their own. 👍

The only issue i have with ebikes is the simple fact that they sit in a “grey” area of the law.

No they aren’t.

Not really being pedal bikes or being motorbikes. [/quote{

They are pedal bikes. Not motorbikes. As the law clearly states.

[quote{Yes i know, there are rules around power output etc, but really, i’m going to suggest that any bike with a motor, IS, in the eyes of the general public, a motorbike.

Loads of people are wrong about things every day. I don’t really care if people are wrong about this. Is doesn’t matter in the slightest.

Why does this matter?  

It doesn’t. But please, do go on...

Well, in the UK, our access laws are frankly old and inadequate to reflect the way we now use our countryside.  So whilst i have no problem at all with people riding ebikes at trail centres, i think there is a careful balancing act required on public rights of way.

The day some rich, entitled Rambler friendly Land Owner gets hit by an ebike (irrespective of why or how) is the day we(us mountain bikers) could loose even more access to our countryside……

This has presumably happened loads of times on std bikes already in the 30+ Years mountainbikes have been popular in the UK ?

Which are the areas have we been banned from when normal bikes have crashed into rich rambler friendly landowners? Not something I’ve read about but presume it must have happened a fair few times by the way you are talking.

Geex, did you read anything i wrote?

What i am is a realist.  And the simple fact remains, that for most of the uk, access to our ever more crowded countryside is becoming more and more contentious as more people (higher population, with more free time and expendable income) want to access and enjoy the countryside for their particular favourite activity.  This "conflict" is real, and very apparent, especially in certain hot spots (the Peak District being one such place)

It's quite clear, that already, powerful lobbying exists against mountain bikers, similar to that which has pretty much made off road driving (and probably soon off road motorcycling) socially unacceptable.  Anything we do to add "mechanisation" to our bikes could to count against us, irrespective of the law, and that could lead to a reduction in our access rights.  Note i said "could" not "will" as we simply don't know what effect it will have, as it's a complex situation.

Our media, and especially our over reactive, knee jerk, and sensationalist social media channels, love a good "horror story".  Imagine someones kid getting hit by an eBike riding (perfectly legally and at a sensible speed) down a Bridleway, i'm pretty sure the headline "kid run down by motorbike" would be splashed willy nilly across all forms of the media, irrespective of who's fault it was, why it happened, or in fact any thing to do with the fact it was an eBike.

So, all i am pointing out is that bolting a motor to a bike, makes, in the eye of the populous a "motorbike" and that is potentially, a dangerous step, when we are already fighting to get our fair share of countryside access.

Now, i think that ^^ is not just a fair point, but a considered one. You can call me ignorant and under informed all you like if it makes you feel better, but i hope most readers of this thread can see my point, and consider the point i am making for themselves.

BTW:

I'm not anti eBike (in fact, i own one)

I'm not anti eBiker (loads of people i ride with have one, people who get load more fun out of riding their eBike all over the country, at trail centres, in the countryside, even along canal towpaths......)

BTW, i also disagree an Ebike is no quicker than the average MTBer?  Sorry, but that's simple not the case.

Sure, a world cup level athlete can put out 400w for an hour, but the typical MTBer, er no, far from it.  I'm reasonably fit, have done the odd triathlon and XC race, and an ebike DOUBLES my average output over an hour (at the least, most days, it can triple it.... 😉

So, sure, it might not be any faster ultimately downhill, but ime, an eBike allows you to cover between 50 and 100% more distance in any given time than the average ride on a purely human powered bike.

ADD:

Luckily, actual accidents between mountain bikes and other users are rare.  The problem comes with the fact that human perspective skews real events into far worse sounding scenarios.

A "near miss" where say some bikers come round a corner and brake to avoid some ramblers, something that is a non event to the bikers, can easily become "a group of out of control bikers travelling so fast they nearly ran us down" to the ramblers.  That's the way of the world.  Our access laws are imo, out of date, and as we seek to gain greater access in most of the uk (ie being able to legally ride our bikes on footpaths) we don't need any negative press, irrespective of how biased it maybe.

It'll only take the walking contingent (who are generally far better connected politically that us bikers) to argue that now "everyone" is on motorbikes (bikes with motors) then no way should they be allowed on footpaths" and bang, there goes that access improvement.  And it only takes one muppet to ruin it for everyone. Most MTBers i've ever met are sensible and courteous, but just like a few "bad" off road motorcyclists effectively shutting down access for all off roaders in our more conflicted areas of countryside, then same could (could, not will!!) happen with eBikes.

So, sure, it might not be any faster ultimately downhill, but ime, an eBike allows you to cover between 50 and 100% more distance in any given time than the average ride on a purely human powered bike.

Cool. They sound great.

No wonder they are getting more popular.

Off course, as you quite rightly said, climbing will the the majority of the difference in distance covered. So hardly an issue in terms of safety right ?

Any incident that causes injury to a Walker is most likely going to happen when descending, at speeds well above the 15mph ebike assistance limit.

So really this whole “safety” thing is a load of balls isn’t it ?

You need to stop following the access laws. They aren't working. Ebikes don't add to the woes of the perverse access laws south of the border. You're getting pigeon holed and restricted, regardless. You aren't going to fix them in the town halls or wherever.

Wee hint, access laws are impossible to police to any noticeable extent.

A “near miss” where say some bikers come round a corner and brake to avoid some ramblers, something that is a non event to the bikers, can easily become “a group of out of control bikers travelling so fast they nearly ran us down” to the ramblers.  That’s the way of the world.  Our access laws are imo, out of date, and as we seek to gain greater access in most of the uk (ie being able to legally ride our bikes on footpaths) we don’t need any negative press, irrespective of how biased it maybe.

And this has happened pretty much every day, somewhere, for the last 30+ years on various types of bikes. Not had much effect has it ?

And it only takes one muppet to ruin it for everyone.

A false premise.

It’s not happened yet on std bikes, in spite of many many many years of a small percentage of people constantly riding like dicks.

I totally agree. It's quite logical to surmise that a speed restricted*** eBike is no more dangerous than a normal bike.  Sure they are a bit heavier, but as riders can be, er, a bit more heavy too, that's no issue.

The problem is that "logic" isn't the primary way peoples brains work.  To the average person, who isn't  a biker, then a bike with a motor is clearly faster and more dangerous (and damaging to the environment) than just a normal bike.  The problem is that if an incident occurs (and the law of averages tells us it will occur eventually) then we will be misjudged.

It's the same as having a car with a loud exhaust, drive at 30mph in a 30 mph zone and people automatically think you are speeding (compared to a silent car, which is probably more dangerous as it can't be heard coming!) Or riding a motorbike along a byway. People automatically think "look at that bunch of motorbikes destroying the peace and quite of the countryside" etc etc.  I wish it wasn't so, but that's the way a lot of people think unfortunately.

Take an incident that i had.  Riding down a long wide bit of trackway in Dartmoor, group of walkers up ahead. I was travelling reasonably quickly, but not ridiculously so, saw them in plenty of time, and braked nice and early, and was down to less than walking pace well in front of them, they stood aside, and as i trundled passed, on chap said "crazy maniac, you nearly ran us down there".  Well i stopped, and we had a discussion.  His point was, that from his perspective, i hadn't slowed down, i could have hit him.  I pointed out that that would also be the case for any two users of a path heading in opposing directions at ANY speed. And actually i did stop, and i didn't hit them, nor would i have been likely to do so, and even if i had, the end result would have been relatively minor.  I even ended up demonstrating just how well a modern MTB stops, which surprised all of the group, who from their position (no knowledge of MTBs and discbrakes / moderns tyres / brakes etc) all though bikes had the terrible brakes they used to have back when they rode them.  We parted on good terms, they hopefully with a little more knowledge on bikes and bikers, an i with a new understanding on how us bikers can be seen by other parties.

IMO, eBikes are a genuine potential threat to our access rights, and probably a bigger threat than anything else currently.  I hope that that doesn't ever materialise, but i'm a realist enough to understand that having a motor on your bike (irrespective of what legally that even means) could paint a bigger target on ALL of our backs.

What you suggesting then, people stop riding ebikes?

Read the comments on this article:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/articles/2008/05/01/_steve_electricbikes_profile.shtml ]BBC_NYorks_ebikes[/url]

Already people pigeon holing eBikes as being "destroyers" of the countryside.

And as you may have noticed, despite 70% of respondents supporting a greater freedom for access in Wales, the law has remained unchanged.

[url= https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/will-there-be-open-access-for-wales-no-seems-to-be-the-official-answer/ ]no-open-access-for-wales[/url]

It's doubtful that any single cause was behind that "NO" decision, but all the smaller effects must add up.  Things like the Snowdon Ban being put in jeopardy by people flaunting the ban (and coming into conflict with walkers... familiar story eh)  and stories about landowners finding illegal "jump runs" on their land in the Surrey hills etc all that cannot have helped.

are you wanting to ban ebikes outside of trail centres?

ps I've no interesting interweb comment sections, the hold very little link to reality.

And as you may have noticed, despite 70% of respondents supporting a greater freedom for access in Wales, the law has remained unchanged.

I did notice, going on that survey is a bit iffy tbh, it's a small sample set probably weighted in favour of mtbing, it's not a nation wide referendum! Regardless. It just proves my point, there's no point in following the access laws south of the border, they are nonsensical, and will remain so.

No, people can ride ebikes (i do) but they need to understand the possible consequence of them (us) having our "extra fun".  Which is where i first came in on this thread.

I use my eBike for self uplift at trail centres mostly, turning a day at say Afan from a massive pedally slog to a genuine "laugh a minute" rip around (two laps in the same time as one lap usually). But i understand the need to ride carefully, considerately, and to be very very open to how we are perceived by other legitimate users of our shared wild spaces!

Unfortunately, imo, there is no magic bullet, no simple fix. eBikes are here to stay, it's up to use to manage the way we use the, and the way others perceive them.

So basically, you're just being a health and safety officer here then? making sure people know of that that we all already know? That horsing about at speed requires a modicum of responsibility? 😆

Man who doesn’t sell ebikes (missed the boat?) doesn’t think ebikes are awesome shocker.

If thinking of me as a Health n Safety officer floats ya boat, then go right ahead! Just make sure you wear the correct protective eyewear........   😉

More seriously, the point i was making was just that eBikes are not "penalty free" with regard their mass adoption, and as a community, we should be aware of their downsides (as well as their upsides).

(we could have a separate discussion around how many eBikes actually remain with their speed limiter in place btw. A quick survey of my riding group shows 3 out of 5 are now "de-restricted" btw)

They're only not penalty free south of the border because of the silly access laws and culture if this is my ball you're not allow a game.

There's only ever one response to that attitude and it's just to go ahead play your own game.

The penalties are largely imaginary, as I said, it's impossible to police access laws to any great extent.

Take an incident that i had.  Riding down a long wide bit of trackway in Dartmoor, group of walkers up ahead. I was travelling reasonably quickly, but not ridiculously so, saw them in plenty of time, and braked nice and early, and was down to less than walking pace well in front of them, they stood aside, and as i trundled passed, on chap said “crazy maniac, you nearly ran us down there”.  Well i stopped, and we had a discussion.  His point was, that from his perspective, i hadn’t slowed down, i could have hit him.  I pointed out that that would also be the case for any two users of a path heading in opposing directions at ANY speed. And actually i did stop, and i didn’t hit them, nor would i have been likely to do so, and even if i had, the end result would have been relatively minor.  I even ended up demonstrating just how well a modern MTB stops, which surprised all of the group, who from their position (no knowledge of MTBs and discbrakes / moderns tyres / brakes etc) all though bikes had the terrible brakes they used to have back when they rode them.  We parted on good terms, they hopefully with a little more knowledge on bikes and bikers, an i with a new understanding on how us bikers can be seen by other parties.

Cool story, but totally irrelevant to your argument that ebikes are bad

IMO, eBikes are a genuine potential threat to our access rights

Your are doing a spectacularly bad job of justifying that opinion.

And as you may have noticed, despite 70% of respondents supporting a greater freedom for access in Wales, the law has remained unchanged.

So from this I can conclude that public opinion, even when in a majority, has minimal/no effect on changing access rights ?

Doesnt that [i]kind of [/i]ruin your argument that minority public opinion (that are actually wrong and misinformed)  will somehow magically remove our access rights  ?

He’s built the biggestest, most successful bike brand ever.

So he clearly knows his stuff yes...?

and as a community, we should be aware of their downsides

Arte those downsides just your opinion accompanied by your made up stories?

Point of order

Ebikes in the US are very different having 1000W and there are (almost)  no access rights

Point of order two

Mountain bikers are not a community and it's a pastime not a sport unless you are racing

Mountain bikers are not a community

I have to agree, not anymore which is a shame. We used to be once upon a time but now it's just people doing their own thing. Personally I think the worlds a little bit worse for it 🙁

I have to agree, not anymore which is a shame. We used to be once upon a time but now it’s just people doing their own thing. Personally I think the worlds a little bit worse for it

Never been any different to how it is now in my experience.

When are you referring to ?

Never been any different to how it is now in my experience.

You've never though as a cyclist you belonged to a community ? I always felt I did. I do still to a certain excetent, certainly road riding with the whole club thing. Perhaps with so many new people coming into cycling it was bound to happen.

A tiny symptom is the waving to fellow riders thing. Not that many years ago it was unusual for it not to happen. Now its the exception not the rule. I sometimes think I'm the only one who still does.

You’ve never though as a cyclist you belonged to a community ?

No more so or less so than I do now.

Its always been pretty much the same. Some mates I go riding with, some strangers I see when I’m out riding. Not much has changed in my experience.

As regards to "community"  I have more in common with hillwalkers than with uplift riders in full face hats and body armour.

My community is those who love exploring the countryside on bike,on foot or by horse

I have been riding bikes on and off road for almost 50years.   There never was one cycling community. It's always been fragmented.

Been riding near St Anton in Austria today. Taking families with young kids out of the equation I reckon 75% of riders we saw were on ebikes.

http://road.cc/content/news/244732-study-cycling-daily-reduces-obesity-unless-its-e-bike

Fine by me either way. It's a choice.

you're going to have to go into a bit more detail about the actual study to prove that point, rather than that piss poor excuse for an article! 😆

Fine by me either way too mind, but i'd like to see the detail in the study. (sound like it's just related to commuting tbh reading the actual intro to the study.) you need to pay for the pdf.

Not really getting into the generic ebike debate but just to add I spoke to David Turner three times when buying my Sultan. He gave me excellent advice and Im still riding that bike 4 years later.

Edit: lols at the autocorrect for I N R A T S

Non-recreational transport mode usage was quantified using the question “How often do you currently use each of the following methods of travel to get to and from places?”, rated on a five-point scale ranging from “Daily or almost daily” to “Never” (Table S2). Modes considered were walking, cycling, e-biking (electrically assisted cycling), motorcycle or moped, public transport, and car or van. Subsequently, frequencies were assigned to each of the categories, transforming this into a days-per-month variable (“Daily or almost daily” = 24 days per month; “on 1-3 days per week” = 8 days per month; “on 1-3 days per month” = 2 days per month; “Less than once per month” = 1 day per month; “Never” = 0 days per month). For the longitudinal assessment, absolute changes in frequency between t₀ and t₁ were calculated. Secondly, a categorical variable looking at cycling frequency was considered: participants were categorized as frequent cyclist (at least once per week), occasional cyclist (less than once per week), or non-cyclist. Changes between groups were considered in the longitudinal study.

......

We mainly focussed on the extreme mode switch from car to bike, but also for some other modes near-significant effects were found. Although the sample of e-bikers was small, riding an e-bike was associated with higher BMI. This finding could complement a previous study that found that older adults with a higher BMI were more likely to be an e-bike-user (Van Cauwenberg et al., in press). This would indicate the presence of self-selection. In the longitudinal analysis, we hypothesize that more frequent use of an e-bike leads to a higher BMI through less regular biking. However, it is unlikely that all of the weight gain was the result of reduced physical activity, as e-biking still requires moderate to vigorous levels of physical activity (Berntsen et al., 2017; Langford et al., 2017)

oh, and

Due to the less frequent use of motorcycle and e-bike compared to other modes, confidence intervals were wider and mostly not statistically significant.

road.cc seems to be making a bit of an arse of themselves these days, that guy that drove into the pedestrain, now this blatantly click baity headline with no grounding in fact? 😆 Those guys are having a 'mare!

you’re going to have to go into a bit more detail about the actual study to prove that point, rather than that piss poor excuse for an article

You need to go into detail that you will likely be thinner riding a non-power assisted cycle?

They are just electric motor bikes.

You need to go into detail that you will likely be thinner riding a non-power assisted cycle

I suggest diet combined with moderate exercise (in whatever form) is the best way to go about that.

I'd like to see the evidence you have about "Cycling daily reduces obesity - unless it's an e-bike" ?

They are just electric motor bikes.

Absolutely!

My enduro bike is around 55hp, a 250w E-bike is around 0.3hp

So identical.

Absolutely!

My enduro bike is around 55hp, a 250w E-bike is around 0.3hp

So identical.

It's relative.

No one said identical.

I’d like to see the evidence you have about “Cycling daily reduces obesity – unless it’s an e-bike” ?

Assuming the same diet you would be working less.

Burning less calories.

I would definitely be fatter.