[Closed] Cyclist protection on HGV

Cyclist protection on HGV = cyclists not going down the inside of them. Nothing more needed.

I'd say they probably do. Its an alternative to yet more blindspot mirrors bolted to the door...there comes a point where a driver just has too many mirrors to choose from!

AndyP - its not the only way it happens - another is the overtake and turn left or on roundabouts. I know of a couple of deaths like that

AndyP - Member
Cyclist protection on HGV = cyclists not going down the inside of them. Nothing more needed.

Troll or stupid, can't decide.

[i]Troll or stupid, can't decide.[/i]
neither. HTH.

[i]another is the overtake and turn left or on roundabouts. I know of a couple of deaths like that [/i]
Both of which are down to poor driving, rather than a lack of gadgets, and both of which happen with cars too.

However if the truckdriver had a mirror or gadget that covered that blind spot it is likely some could be avoided

Cyclist protection on HGV = cyclists not going down the inside of them. Nothing more needed.

Indecently stupid comment on a cycling forum???

I do take issue with the signs on busses and lorries saying "do not overtake on left" / do not undertake - as if it absolves the driver / bus co / lorry co of responsibility.

In an ideal world there would be no need to squeeze down either side of a large vehicle, but the reality of town road layouts is somewhat different.

+ the advent of ASLs means there should be a way of access to the ASL box

that's like saying we don't need zebra/ pelican crossings to cross the road.
I think they are a great idea, but educating people to not go up the inside of large vehicles is paramount.

The problem with an ASL is that a cyclist can be hidden whilst passing the front half of an HGV (even with blind spot mirrors) and with the largest trucks, hidden when they are positioned in the ASL box even if they are directly in front of the truck. The only way to see them would be the mirror that looks down above the windscreen, but not sure how much forward vision that gives the driver. (so whats that...3 or 4 mirrors on the passenger door, 2 minimum on the drivers side, plus the one across over the windscreen. And don't forget the driver side blindspot check for the cyclist who decides to overtake the HGV that is taking ages checking his mirrors before moving off!)

You could even argue that the cycle lane approach to the ASL box encourages cyclists to pass on the inside of a lorry, rather than wait behind. Even more so, when a lorry wants to turn left, they will move to the right and straddle two lanes, leaving a gaping gap enticing cyclists to pass.

It sounds like the Crossrail contractors need to have an audible warning system fitted, that sounds when a cyclist is on the inside of the lorry. Which is good...its a second system that backs up the driver if he misses something.

I don't commute into central london as I work in outer london, but I rode in yesterday to a consultancy and I was pretty shocked by a few things.

The amount of RLJ was ridiculous
The number of people going down the left or through the middle of 2 buses / HGVs was massive (especially women!)
A HGV pulled along side me and then proceeded to turn left (scary)

People must really value making the journey as short as possibe, I was gunning it between the lights but still got beat into town by several 'nodders' and even a bird on a shopper bike.

I agree largely with what AndyP says.
I'd also add that I think adding the devices mentioned in the article are also a good idea if it means that it makes life easier for the drivers.

Agree also with AndyP, this is also interesting for you London boys - maybe you could take a ride?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2012/jan/27/hgv-cyclists-safety-bike-blog

In an ideal world there would be no need to squeeze down either side of a large vehicle, but the reality of town road layouts is somewhat different

not sure about this - could say [i]the reality of driving in the city means that left turning across cyclists is essential[/i]

time is the issue - losing a couple of minutes [edit] versus [/edit] risk your own life or put someone in danger seems commonplace on the roads - need a change in attitude and that may mean simply getting up earlier or an acceptance by employers that flexible working is ok

as to the op - seems like a good move - anything that hieghtens awareness must help - not 100% convinced technology is the answer - though anything that helps drivers with blindspot must be good if actually works, hope there is a trickledown effect - suspect will simply end up with two types of construction vehicles on the road - those that will install the technology/train drivers and those that just don't care

What's needed is more cyclist, and more driver education and respect.

in my experience, cyclists put themselves in danger more than HGV's put them in danger.

BR as far as I'm aware that isn't a trading places that's a educate cyclists. Aint no lorry drivers told to get out of their cabs and see what it's like down on the ground when lorries overtake you, (whether or not the lorry then cuts in or squishes you on a bend soon after)

So Not

A safety initiative by the Met is encouraging cyclists and HGV drivers and cyclists to [b]swap[/b] places

Edit I do agree with educating riders not to go down the inside of lorries but plenty of bad driving by lorry drivers needs to be tackled also, and lets face it lots of drivers seem to be able to start to overtake you then seemingly forget you are there and turn left, an audible alarm for long vehicles would be a good idea. Also letting vehicles with such massive blind spots onto normal roads was a bad move in the first place

Rkk. Those stickers are on trucks/buses for a very good reason.
If you squeeze through these gaps your drastically shortening you life expectancy..

Donk. Yes there is. It's used as part of driver cpc training.
Not compulsory, but should be.

Rkk. Those stickers are on trucks/buses for a very good reason.
If you squeeze through these gaps your drastically shortening you life expectancy..

I agree, and it's something I try to avoid as much as possible.

However, the local bus company(ies) in Cardiff seem to use it as a catch all "we're done here with our responsibility"..., which I find very irksome.

Key routes through the centre of Cardiff have been made "traffic free" - or more properly, bus, cycle and taxi only. The outcome is that certain roads are long bus parks during the morning and evening commute, with the bus drivers jockeying with each other for space.

Overtaking on the right is a rare option - the busses are oftern two abreast in a single carriageway, pushing you into the oncoming lane.

Overtaking left is (as stated above) incredibly dangerous. As well as left turning traffic, the busses are jockeying for kerb space for pick up / set downs.

The safe options are sit there for 15 mins, a 15 min walk through the city centre, or as I do, an illegal ride through the pedestrianised area.

The problem is poor town / traffic layout planning

Hmm yeah the guardian article mentioned it, how many lorry drivers are going to voluntarily sign up for a 7-8hour course tho? Whereas RLJing cyclist [url= http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2011/11/my-morning-with-metropolitan-police.html ]are apparently coerced[/url] to get into the cab. Never heard of offending lorry/car drivers being forced onto a bike as part of sentence/rehabilitation.

Sorry seem to be in a bit of a grumpy mood, educate cyclists yes good idea, tho it mainly appears to be "come and have a look at how unsuitable for urban roads these vehicles are"
Still need driver education too tho, [url=

"more education"

WTF does this actually mean? it crops up all the time with road safety, as if every single problem can be solved by some massive unspoken, undefined education program thats going to be forced upon the entire population? Even with the massive anti speeding campaign over the last 10 years, people still jump up and down and complain of unfairness when they get caught speeding and thats a relatively simple message to teach people. God knows who'd communicate the complexities of trying to navigate urban roads designed around motor traffic on a bicycle to most of the general public.

Builders merchant Keyline has also adapted 14 of its delivery lorries to comply with the new demands.

..

“All Crossrail requirements are coordinated from our National Rail Office to remove the risk of any non-compliant deliveries.”

To summarise "We have only adapted as many vehicles as needed for this contract and make sure they're the ones we use here. We're not bothering with the other vehicles in our fleet."

Cyclist protection on HGV = cyclists not going down the inside of them. Nothing more needed.

Strange. My uncle didn't go down the inside of a truck. Infact, the artic just failed to give way to him on a roundabout, didn't even brake by all accounts. Anyway, I can't see this being a bad thing.

Truck drivers now have to do 40 hours of compulsory training every 5 years. One part of this CAN be cyclist awareness. Optional though...
Rkk, I agree on the planning side, who decided that the a11 would make a good cycles route?
And everbody hates the buses.

My wife thinks that all cyclists should be licensed and MOt'ed so to speak as per car drivers.

What do we thinbk about that?

What do we thinbk about that?

Troll?

Or a fundamental mis-understanding of what the word "licence" means in law???

Bike licence hmm, admin costs? kids? enforcement?
MOT as above
Bet she said road tax in her initial argument too didn't she eh?

certainly not a troll

her view, from attending a meeting regarding the crossrail project which dealt in depth with this very subject is that safety devices are only useful up to a point. Cyclist behaviour is the key in her opinion, leading to her recently taken view that cyclists should be licensed in the same way that other road users are.

I don't think the legal interpretation of license is much in her thoughts but hey don't let that stop you

as the cost of fitting extra mirrors and bleepers will fall on the vehicle ownrer he will pass on the costs to the renter of the vehicle, or the one he is delivering to, so the new train set for london paid for by the tax payer will rsult in all paying more tax to subsidise it.

I reckon if more cyclists appreciated how difficult they were to see when filtering/ lane splitting through traffic - even when drivers are activel looking out for them, which most aren't - they would be a lot more cautious. I drive into Edinburgh one day a week and doing that has made me think long and hard about how I ride in the rest of the days.

The biggest vehicle I have driven is a long wheelbase Sprinter. The restricted view out the side and back of that was scary, even compared to a large estate car. Can't imagine how little yo can see out a truck; I'd be a nervous wreck trying to drive an artic in a city.

Cyclist behaviour is the key in her opinion,

I can understand how she has formed that view - back to the always heated RLJ arguments... 🙄

:DDivorce.

It's not education that's needed. It's attitude change and regulation for safer vehicles and roads.

Attitude change will only happen if it becomes more inconvenient to continue in that habit. Police blitzes on murderous/suicidal behaviour being one way.

Temporary impoundment of trucks caught turning across pedestrians/cyclists would soon ensure that the employers of the drivers became very sensitive to the issue. Ditto for RLJ bikes.

Stu_N - Member

I reckon if more cyclists appreciated how difficult they were to see when filtering/ lane splitting through traffic - even when drivers are activel looking out for them, which most aren't - they would be a lot more cautious.

this is why you always assume no one has seen you until its obvious they have and are reacting to you

Anything that improves road safety and saves lives is a positive move.

HGV's with 'cyclist protection' as a driver aid is great, but I hope it doesn't mean cyclists lower their guard and effectively place all the responsibility on the HGV driver.

Cyclists should also learn not to undertake HGV's, and be particularly aware of the dangers at junctions & in ASL's. This includes not moving up the inside of traffic to get to an ASL just because it's there. Sometimes it's better to wait behind a large vehicle.

There are also too many people riding around who have little road sense, and just don't appreciate or understand how to behave in traffic.

Education is key, for drivers and cyclists, but I don't know how you guarantee cyclist education seeing as anyone can just buy a bike a ride it on the roads with no 'test' ... making info available is the best you can do, maybe at point of sale, but even so most people who ride on the roads will just learn from experience.

Cyclists should also learn not to undertake HGV's,

Unless its safe to do so!

I am not spending / wasting time stuck behind trucks when it is not necessary

Epicyclo - assumed liability as in most of Europe

and be particularly aware of the dangers at junctions & in ASL's.

Also wonder how many HGV drivers will, if they see a cyclist stopped at an ASL, then make sure they stop well back so they can still see the cyclist

D0NK - Member
this is particularly tricky if HGV stopped at lights and there's a nice and "safe" mandatory cycle lane and ASL at the junction.

Maybe a nice solid deeply embedded concrete post at the edge of the cycle lane would help discourage corner cutting.

TandemJeremy - Member
Epicyclo - assumed liability as in most of Europe

Excellent point. I'm going to write my MP and ask for that here.

not so much the corner cutting epi (tho that has happened to me - not a hgv tho) it's the nice safe cycle lane that suggests "yes undertake this HGV and sit in this ASL, the lorry driver can't actually see you at any point in this manoeuvre or when you are right in front of him but heck just go for it anyway".

Cycle lanes designed with safety in mind.

many newer lorries and in london (most are newernow due to LEZ + major contract requirements like Crossrail) also not have an audible warning when indicating left - quite useful.

the ASLs in their current design though are part of the issue as they encourage people to go up the inside of stationary traffic inc wagons - this is ok if you can get to the front and then be seen but if busy with other cyclist or the lights change then this can put you in the worst position.

If all cyclists bothered to ride two abreast, this kind of thing would never happen.

Rkk. Those stickers are on trucks/buses for a very good reason.
If you squeeze through these gaps your drastically shortening you life expectancy..

I agree, and it's something I try to avoid as much as possible.

However, the local bus company(ies) in Cardiff seem to use it as a catch all "we're done here with our responsibility"..., which I find very irksome.

Not advocating passing on the left regardless of the circumstances - that would be stupid - but quite right, these stickers are used as some kind of up front defence. Wonder how that attitude would stand up against R151 of the HC if challenged in court following an incident though:

151
In slow-moving traffic. You should... be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side

Not that being right would be much comfort or use when you're 6 feet under in your oak suit...

Making a few cyclists watch this may help highlight how bad visibility is in a truck;

Also educating truck driver on how to drive a bit more patiently would help. Oh, maybe more enforcement of the rules of the road for both car and truck drivers may be a bit of a deterrent.

Any vehicles - if you cannot see the eyes of the driver he [b]has not [/b]seen you. If you can see their eyes [b]they might[/b] have seen you

"it's lot harder to run someone over once they've looked you in the eyes.

Can't remember who said it, but true.
It's not just the drivers who need to be taught patience. It' the examiners too. The ONLY thing I was marked down for on my hgv test, was taking too long to pass a cyclist.....
"he only needs a couple of feet"

There is a pretty notorious junction in London where deaths have occurred.

Travelling west on Upper Thames Street at the junction with Queen Street Place (going onto Southwark Bridge) there is a cycle lane and an ASL. HGVs turning left here have resulted in very nasty incidents. The cycle lane and the ASL encourage people to 'overtake on the left' as it's a cycle lane.

Anyway, I reckon that in all but a few cases, cycle lanes should be mandatory ones with a solid white line, not a broken line. This means that NO cars, taxis, buses, vans, HGVs, scooters, Motorbikes, etc can use them. Better still a phsical seperation so the can't encroach on the lane at all

If all cyclists bothered to ride two abreast, this kind of thing would never happen.

😀

Perhaps sopmebody could explain why drivers of certain vehicles, overtake cyclists and ten turn left, where as they dont with old grannies driving Peugots at 10 mph.

Because some people can't bloody drive.

It sounds like the Crossrail contractors need to have an audible warning system fitted, that sounds when a cyclist is on the inside of the lorry. Which is good...its a second system that backs up the driver if he misses something.

Not a troll, just a genuine question: do these "warning systems" and sensors get activated every time the truck overtakes a static object like a lamp-post or comes to a stop at a set of lights and there's a pedestrian walking near it on the pavement? Cos that would render the system nearly worthless...

Mirrors etc are all well and good, you can have 10 mirrors but if the driver is looking in mirror 10 while a cyclist passes through mirror one, it's still no good. This is the problem with having all this extra safety gear, it's going to make the cyclist think "oh it's OK to ride up the inside of a turning lorry"

And as that video above:

Making a few cyclists watch this may help highlight how bad visibility is in a truck;

shows then it clearly isn't OK!

 

They'd be better off fitting cameras on the top of city centre traffic lights, looking down at junctions and ASLs. Be useful to absolve any "good" truck drivers too (and they could probably collect unbelievable amounts of revenue fining ASL-encroaching vehicles if they wanted to)

and bigbrotherwatch could wet themselves again, of course 😆

It sounds like the Crossrail contractors need to have an audible warning system fitted, that sounds when a cyclist is on the inside of the lorry. Which is good...its a second system that backs up the driver if he misses something.

Although I'd be concerned that drivers will come to rely on it. In a car with reversing sensors, it's very easy to start relying on them and to fall out of the habit of looking properly. I fear the same may happen here.

.....and now Crossrail are getting truck drivers onto two wheels to do cycle awareness training. That can only be a good thing but it really needs to be applied to drivers of all trucks and buses and in my experience to quite a few car drivers too.

[url= http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2012/02/24/muck-away-drivers-sent-on-cycle-safety-courses/ ]Truck drivers do cycle awareness training[/url]

Not a troll, just a genuine question: do these "warning systems" and sensors get activated every time the truck overtakes a static object like a lamp-post or comes to a stop at a set of lights and there's a pedestrian walking near it on the pavement? Cos that would render the system nearly worthless...

The audible warning outside of the truck normally is activated when the driver puts the lefthand indicator on..

hackney do this:

http://www.hackney.gov.uk/HGV-CPC.htm

in action:

http://tinyurl.com/btw4wh3

[img] [/img]

Fantastic. I really want to see some of the fat bar stewards at work do this. 😀