they can produce all the whizzy videos they like
ill take cartridge bearing hubs over shimano any day
- the cartridges have a shorter lifespan but are much easier to service and replace
New-fangled caged bearings. What next, cartridges?
the cartridges have a shorter lifespan but are much easier to[s] service[/s] and replace
for maintainance shy folks cartridgess are great - but i like the fact that with 15 minutes i can restore my C&C hubs to new and they run free as the wind compared to cartidgess.
do how ever prefer cartidges on my MTB as i dont think the decreased resistance is all that worth it
I don't see the problem, even I can service cup and cone stuff. It's hardly difficult.
Pros and cons either way, as long as the bearings used are top quality I'm happy.
C+C seems to be the long-distance tourer choice but I'd be inclined to use SB for the tool-less servicing, I could service something like a Hope with a rock and a rag if I had 2 new bearings to hand.. which is partly why I like C+C generally, it's more subtle to work on, proactive rather than reactive etc. Just a bit 'nicer' somehow.
Now if Shimano could just use a less bonkers range of cone spanner sizes so that each hub / wheel set didn't seem to need a new pair of spanners.. : )
Now if Shimano could just use a less bonkers range of cone spanner sizes so that each hub / wheel set didn't seem to need a new pair of spanners.. : )
New dura-ace ones look to be tool free.
because they're lovely?
if you can use a spanner, you can service a C&C hub. A little tlc every couple of years will keep them running for decades, changing nothing more than the grease.
changing cartridge bearings always feels like such a massive bodgenfaff, and you're never far away from breaking something.
(or even leaving half a broken cartridge stuck inside the hub - that one's still lurking at the back of the cellar)
my wife's new bike has cartridge hubs, so when they need servicing, it'll take a weekend of fettling to work out just the right combination of sockets and washers and chocks and hammers, to get the bearings out, never mind back in - that'll be another weekend.
can you tell that i hate cartridge bearings?
I've had experience with both. Had XT hubs for a couple of years. When they were serviced right, were buttery smooth. But too much of a faff to keep right.
Recently replaced my cartridge bearings on my superstar hubs. Apart from struggling to remove a few of them due to not having a decent bearing pull, much less of a ball ache.
I think a lot of the bad press cup-n-cone gets is just from bad products, so many cheap bikes come with c-n-c hubs so probably most people who've used them have used crap ones.
Frankly Shimano haven't covered themselves in glory recently either, I just retired an Exage hub because it's getting a little growly, it's over 20 years old. Chances of an XT hub today lasting the same? I think basically zero.
Oh and also obviously it's a major reason we ended up stuck with bloody stupid 15mm, cup and cone becomes less competitive with bigger axles and isn't as good at axle swapping.
I like the idiotproofness of cartridge mind, especially buying used- my trials bike's got cup and cone that have been run loose so the races are a little dinged, it doesn't really matter but it's annoying, would never happen to one of my bikes.
What we need is more stuff like Fulcrum- all of the expensive disposability of cartridge and all of the maintenance-intensiveness of cup and cone, with no benefit at all. Oh no wait.
I like them. Enjoy the occasional fettle for super smooth and prolonged use. Have just bought some XTs for a touer type build.
Was riding my mtb the other day and the Pro2s are all rumbly and knackered.
and they've been better more recently with the allen/cone spanner combos, to be fair.New dura-ace ones look to be tool free.
I've got different bearings in different bikes, no real preferance.
If I lived somewhere dryer, I'd considder XTR over ProII, but as bikes have to be ridden through cruddy winters and commuted on as well as look bling and be funtionaly perfect I'd pick ProII. The advantage of cartriges isn't so much that they least longer (IME a shimano hub will last 2 years if you do nothing more than just nip up the cones to remove any play), but the cartrige bearings can go on for months even once they start to feel a little notchy, whereas C&C requires some intervention to stop them deteriorating and becoming damaged.
even the video from Hope on how to rebuild a pro2 rear is next to useless.
"to remove these (bearings) just gently* knock them out"
(with no explanation how, or with what)
great, very helpfull.
(*yeah, right)
I had to get my brother to redo a pro2hub once, as I hadn't a clue, much more flaff that C&C tbh. add an irritating click noise to that, and well tbh, I was glad when my bike got nicked! 😆ahwiles - Member
even the video from Hope on how to rebuild a pro2 rear is next to useless."to remove these (bearings) just gently knock them out"
(with no explanation how, or with what)
great, very helpfull.
[i]cartrige bearings can go on for months even once they start to feel a little notchy[/i]
That's one of things I don't like. Being a cheapskate I'll run them until they die properly but have to put up with noise and play unlike C&C which I can clean and regrease.
Pauls are quite nice as you can adjust the play out of the cartridge but once you need to start doing that they deteriorate quite quickly.
[i]Oh and also obviously it's a major reason we ended up stuck with bloody stupid 15mm, cup and cone becomes less competitive with bigger axles and isn't as good at axle swapping.[/i]
They do do 20mm C&C although I've no idea if it can still be called that as I've never dared to open mine up to see what's inside. Should really do that now that bike is hanging up unused.
It's a bit of '6 of one ha;f a dozen of the other' it seems. I have one of each type on my wheels. The last front wheel on XT cup and cone, worked beautifully for 9 years with zero maintenance, and was still doing fine when I sold it recently. Catridge bearings on the rear are doing fine for now after a year, and the XT's it replaced where more susceptible to problems. Just different types of maintenance involved.
I don't see that replacing the bearings and grease in cup and cone hubs is any more of a faff than removing and pressing in new bearings for cartridge hubs.
That's one of things I don't like. Being a cheapskate I'll run them until they die properly but have to put up with noise and play unlike C&C which I can clean and regrease.
I said notchy, not noisy and play!
"to remove these (bearings) just gently* knock them out"
Step 1) find piece of metal that'll fit through from one side, but can press on the other bearing.
2) put hub over a vice, or block of wood, bricks, or anything else to hold it off the floor/bench
3) hit with hammer. Depending on how well suppouted and squarely you can hit the bearing will determine how hard to hit it, if using a blunt screwdriver it's best to tap it out working arround the circumfance to keep it square, if you can get a socket against the bearing just smash it with a mallet.
Do you still heed Blue Peters advice and get an adult to do the bit with scisors? 😉
I don't see that replacing the bearings and grease in cup and cone hubs is any more of a faff than removing and pressing in new bearings for cartridge hubs.
Maybe my cup and cone experience is tarnished by having cheap ones, but I remember it being quite an (irritating) art form removing all play without binding. I don't miss them
one of the best things about hope wheels is their versatility
my current hubs started as regular qr, then went 10/9mm bolth thru, briefly 20mm then 15mm front and im just about to set them up 142 x 12 on the back
does cup and cone hold shimano back from being so versatile?
Plus if the seals lets you down on cup and cone you can trash the bearing races, then it is new hub time normally.
I believe we have cartridge bearings in hubs for the same reason we have external cartrige bearing bottom brackets. The reason being that they are easier to manufacture cheaply, not becase they are necesarily any better than the products they replaced.
The key part in a modern hub/bottom bracket is the cartridge bearing, which isn't a bike specific component and is manufactured en mass by one or two worldwide bearing suppliers for a few pence.
Best hubs I ever owned were a set of campagnolo chorus cup and cone hubs with grease injection ports. They never required sevicing but cost a fortune compared with modern hubs.
Iirc one reason shimano and campag stick with cup amd cone for wheel hubs is because they can! ie the tooling etc for these hubs only makes financial sense if you produce in big enough volumes. Ck, hope etc don't make anything like as many hubs as similar xt/xtr/ultegra/DA.
Amazing how well even busget c&c hubs keep rolling with minimal service if they don't get muddy. Rebuilt a wheel on my commuter recently which has a deore rear hub on: eight years, thousands and thousands of miles and one service on it where i don't think i even changed the bearings and i thought since i was putting another rim on it might be time to service the hub again- still fine! Threads like these always produce similar tales of ancient shimano hubs going strong.
Problem is mud isn't it? Service and ball life of same hub is just way way less if it is muddy and washed frequently. Also shimano did themselves no favours with poor 20mm hubs which had pretty average sealing and needed daft spanners to get into them, pointless bearing cage and no way of holding the axle properly to adjust the nds cone and tighten up again unless you butchered the axle or bought their hideously expensive split collet service tool. Never owned one of theit 15mm hubs but i hope they put some kind of spanner flats in it. Also iirc later xt hubs had a tendency to unwind or overtighten themselves. Happily you can still get m765 hubs and newer slx which IME are both excellent and pretty well selaed.
even the video from Hope on how to rebuild a pro2 rear is next to useless."to remove these (bearings) just gently* knock them out"
(with no explanation how, or with what)
great, very helpfull.
(*yeah, right)
Yeah I was stuck for hours trying to knock them out with an undernourished penguin!
Really?
Seriously I think a little common sense is expected.....
Plus if the seals lets you down on cup and cone you can trash the bearing races, then it is new hub time normally.
Only the NDS cup is inreplacable (and even then, it is, it's just not a spare so you'd have to start with a whole spare hub). And the races are chuffing hard, I've run hubs to the point the balls were signifcantly undersized just nipping up the cones ever so often, the races had a couple of corrosion pitts put no roughness and were perfect with new cones and balls.
spectabilis - MemberReally?
Seriously I think a little common sense is expected.....
Really.
i've learned, from many expensive, time consuming mistakes, to use the right tool for the job.
i have been able to knock a bearing out with a screwdriver, but usually with some 'collateral damage'.
it's become wiles workshop policy not to start a job without the right tools - otherwise the sense of momentum leads to me attempting bodges.
so what's the right tool? - and where do i get one?
Really
+1
First time I changed some Hope bearings I was so nervous about doing some damage. I had no idea how hard to hit them, with what and supported by what. I used some common sense and followed some tips from STW but was still surprised by how hard I had to hit them to get them out and back in again.
Some of us clearly aren't comfortable with the brutality of changing cartridge bearings when every other job on a push bike is quite delicate, controlled and considered
i must say - ive always used sockets to good effect on hope(and other hubs)
how ever i borrowed rusty macs hope bearing replacement kit - basically the exact sizes of sockets and a nylon faced hub support.
Pricy but it really does make the job a very simple and quick affair.
adjusting cup and cone hubs is not hard once you have the technique , lock the drive side cones tight (even apply some 243) fit - screw on the nds cone and lock nut - get them ever so slightly tight - lock them up and they should only need minimal adjustment which can be done using the 17mm nuts to create leave slight slighty almost undetectable play in the hub which will be taken up when the QR is tightened.
cartridge bearings for fit/forget but a properly adjusted cone hub is a joy to use purring away with a smug air of well-greased slickness
Plus if the seals lets you down on cup and cone you can trash the bearing races, then it is new hub time normally.
I've only ever trashed one Shimano hub. It was 20 years old, and I hadn't serviced it for 5 years. I can buy two new ones for the price of a Hope freehub body...
I have both and it would not be an issue that would make me either buy or not buy a set of wheels. Both work, CnC a little more faff but adjustable and repairable and servicing them rarely goes wrong ..assuming the correct size cone spanners are to hand,
Cartridge depends on the right size "drift" being available and how hard you are prepared to hit them
I've only ever trashed one Shimano hub. It was 20 years old, and I hadn't serviced it for 5 years. I can buy two new ones for the price of a Hope freehub body...
when I first got into mtbing I was so enthusiastic I used to ride 35 miles a day at the weekends all year round, near Epsom where the mud on the bridleways can get real deep and wet.
I had to service the hubs regularly and then had to use marine grease as lithium would break down to easy.
Anything less than XT didn't have seals good enough to keep virtually anything out.
I wasted a few XT hubs along the way.
I don't see the problem, even I can service cup and cone stuff. It's hardly difficult.
It's not difficult, for me its more that you kinda need to keep on top of it otherwise you risk trashing your hub with pits in the cups as I've done a few times. I'd much rather just run cartridges until they develop play and then hammer some new ones in.
My experience of cup & cone on mountain bikes goes along the lines of: ride bike, at some point notice the lock nut has come loose, try to service as soon as back home but find the cups are knackered. Cartridge bearings for me: ride bike, bearings knackered, knock old ones out, knock new ones in. Done.
I had to service the hubs regularly and then had to use marine grease as lithium would break down to easy.Anything less than XT didn't have seals good enough to keep virtually anything out.
So you're saying that for intensive use, you should use good quality grease in good quality hubs? Well I never!
Where cup and cone goes wrong is in the availability of spare parts. Can you get a spare rubber seal for a Deore hub? can you bollox unless you buy a complete spare hub. Therefore the seal perishes, then the race gets damaged and the hub is trashed. Most people fail to service cup and cone hubs regularly resulting in damaged cones and races. At least with cartridge bearings it's not too late to save the wheel when you feel play in the bearings with C+C 8 out of ten times it is and you have to replace the wheel, which is just a huge waste of resources.
Cup and cone with a replaceable race and availability of spare parts would be great, but it's not reality.
Really.i've learned, from many expensive, time consuming mistakes, to use the right tool for the job.
i have been able to knock a bearing out with a screwdriver, but usually with some 'collateral damage'.
it's become wiles workshop policy not to start a job without the right tools - otherwise the sense of momentum leads to me attempting bodges.
so what's the right tool? - and where do i get one?
Well i'd have thought that most home mechanics would be aware of the concept of a drift ...
Where cup and cone goes wrong is in the availability of spare parts. Can you get a spare rubber seal for a Deore hub?
[i] Therefore the seal perishes, then the race gets damaged and the hub is trashed[/i]
Does anyone still make hubs with grease injection ports? You wouldn't need to worry about seals then. just pump a bit of grease in to clear the crap out.
ah, the mythical drift.
that's it? - that's the correct tool? This is considered a better solution than care and spanners?
a hub that costs £150, and you have to fix it every couple of years by belting it with a bit of metal that you found/made to be a convenient shape and size? hoping that the edge hasn't rounded enough so it wont 'sit'.
the engineering is weak in this solution.
It's such a simple operation that precision tools aren't needed.
This of course makes it inferior for many.
I like cup and cone, it doesn't bother me how long
It takes to get right, at least I can do it myself for pence.
My fuel 9 rear wheel, with through axle had to go
To the trek shop. Not possible to do at home.
ahwiles - Memberi've learned, from many expensive, time consuming mistakes, to use the right tool for the job.
i have been able to knock a bearing out with a screwdriver, but usually with some 'collateral damage'.
Nothing wrong with a screwdriver as a drift, you'll only cause "collateral damage" if you do it wrong, and you can do it wrong with any tool in the world.
I use a motorbike axle mostly, it's a great size and heft for the job. I do own some "proper" drifts and punches from the personal stock of Baron Alfred Krupp, but I almost never use them, they're not as good (except the one I bent, which is really handy sometimes. Oh and the tapered one is good for shattering small bearings, makes them easier to get out of my hemlock)
Refitting, sockets are perfect.
You have to admit there is a knack to getting C&C tightened up properly. It takes a bit of experience to get it right.
But then, there's also a knack to replacing cartridge bearings too.
Big advantage of cartridge imo is that the hub can always be made good as new. Eventually the races in C&C will get damaged, requiring a new hub.
So you're saying that for intensive use, you should use good quality grease in good quality hubs? Well I never!
no - I am saying that good quality grease and good quality hubs aren't enough in some situations and you end up with a trashed hub.
Maybe it's because Shimano sell all over the world, to people and places where it's not so easy to rush out and buy new cartridge bearings and fit them in the luxury of your own bike shed?
Cup and cone are far easier and cheaper to maintain if you're prepared to (or have no choice but to) invest the time and effort to keep them running.
Cartridge bearings are better if you're happy in a throwaway culture.
Eventually the races in C&C will get damaged, requiring a new hub.
No, do read the thread!
I'm a big fan of c&c hubs and use old xtr ones on my winter hack bike, 4 winters and counting and still super smooth
For me the key is good grease and high grade balls not the tat most shops sell in little bags on a big card
Nothing beats just how fast a nice record or dura ace hub rolls on the road
no - I am saying that good quality grease and good quality hubs aren't enough in some situations and you end up with a trashed hub.
Only if you don't service them. Which, if you use a good quality hub and grease, doesn't need doing very often.
Where cup and cone goes wrong is in the availability of spare parts. Can you get a spare rubber seal for a Deore hub? can you bollox unless you buy a complete spare hub. Therefore the seal perishes, then the race gets damaged and the hub is trashed. Most people fail to service cup and cone hubs regularly resulting in damaged cones and races. At least with cartridge bearings it's not too late to save the wheel when you feel play in the bearings with C+C 8 out of ten times it is and you have to replace the wheel, which is just a huge waste of resources.
I just bought a complete brand new deore hub from CR for the huge sum of £14. Including a nice shimano skewer . You couldn't buy one decent sealed bearing for that.
My RS81 road wheels don't use cone spanners any more. You just need 2 X 6mm allen keys. Its easier than ever now. CnC give far less resistance that a hub with sealed bearings. My old Pro 2 crap hub had 5 of the buggers, which would need changing up to 3 times a year, which amounted to a far old lick of money.
As a rule, cartridge bearings are better for off roading but CnC are better where lower rolling resistance is needed.
This rubber seal ?
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/mobile/shimano-deore-hb-m530-front-rubber-seal-21h-0420-prod29819/
Most hub parts are around
Cup and cone are rubbish.
Why just the other day, I checked the cones on my 1932 Sunbeam and there was evidence of slight pitting. I had to put new balls in and regrease it.
So I checked my other Sunbeam, a 1937 model. The cups and cones were perfect, but now I just know it's going to let me down in only 5 years time when it's 82 years old.
Luckily I have some spare balls and grease.
🙂
I 'upgraded' to cartridge hubs years ago but I've since realised that the things I didn't like about Shimano hubs were the poor sealing (M475s) and crappy freewheels (all the ones I used), which I seemed to kill with alarming regularity and which cost more on their own than an (admittedly relatively cheap) entire replacement hub.
Actually, front Shimano hubs pretty much last forever IME; it's the rears that need careful watching and TLC.
I really like the idea of a quality C&C MTB hub with grease ports and hex key adjustment. Does such a thing exist?