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Al pretty much irrelevant though. Si is building a 650B and as long as he doesn't call it a ****ing "27.5" then I wish him all the very best with it.
I don't know why anyone would call a 27.5 wheel 650B? 650B means the outside diameter of the tyre is 650mm and the tyre is "B" width, a middling width (~35mm) touring tyre. It's also called 26 x 1 1/2. Considering that the outside diameter is about 715mm and the rim diameter is 584mm and the tyre widths 2.1 to 2.5" I struggle to understand using an old touring tyre designation. Call the MTB standards 22, 23 and 24.5 and it makes a lot more sense. Or 27, 28 and 29.5 because that's what you get with a good sized tyre.
(Yes, I've tried a 29")
I guess trying ONE is perfect for making an opinion about them all.
The next person to make sweeping generalisation about wheel sizes gets a slap....
Spot on business thinking to drop the 26", unless enough people all call him in the next 5 days and PP Gift him the RRP for the frame right now you wouldn't even consider making a batch. Thats it folks money where your mouth is.
chiefgrooveguru - MemberI don't know why anyone would call a 27.5 wheel 650B?
Because it's either that or you buy into the marketing toss and pretend that it's really halfway between 26 and 29.
From what was said I imputed the 29’r was a no goer and that was that.
Not sure what "not good for more than a few races" means?
Was wrecker referring to this -
chiefgrooveguru - Member
...
[b]Except the Cotic enduro team riders chose to race the 29er prototype rather than the 26 Rocket... [/b]
Funny old world. I hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
+2
Not read this thread all the way through - and apologies for my ignorance over the next question...I saw a Rocket in Keswick MTB last year and though it was a great looking bike...what's happened to it and why such heartache all round?
Because it's either that or you buy into the marketing toss and pretend that it's really halfway between 26 and 29.
Would that be the 29 that's only 2.5" bigger than 26? 😛
Would that be the 29 that's only 2.5" bigger than 26?
And even then, it's still not halfway between both.
Face it the reality is that for Enduro bikes which the Rocket roughly falls into its all about 650B, and so really the only option is to follow.
Personally I still think steel is the wrong material for a full sus, despite Cy's claims. But the one plus point for Cotic is at least it does differentiate you from the competition.
Funny old world. I hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
Have you tried the non XC ones?
Yep. A variety including an enduro. I'm happy that they're not for me, just the same as some love them.
better than most making some sweeping comments 🙂 I guess in 2-3 years the debate might have died off and people shop for a bike not a wheel size though.
To be honest, with pretty much all of the DH bikes having gone 650, 26 is going if not gone. 29 is now looking like it's going to be the XC option. With regards to longer travel, there aren't many 2015 29ers are there?
The ones I'm seeing (you have to discount the BS tastic Spec/Giant from the list) are 29 seems to be covering the trail end of stuff up to AM and 650b taking over from there. Considering how long 26" took to get to the level of bike that was available I think the next 2-3 years will be a settling period for the industry with some refinements and probably one or two "Best Bike" types shaking things up.
The vast majority of AM (shouldn't we be calling it enduro now?) seem to be 650 to me. Two remedy models and a few enduros aside
Even the trail end of the spectrum is mostly 650.
Bronsons, solos, scouts, sb5/6c etc etc.
I guess this is proof (if proof were needed) that it doesn't matter how good your product is if you don't have your supply chain sorted. Cotic made a great bike and a few years ago there was good demand for that bike. They took a gamble on trying to manufacture it in the UK and as a consequence lost out on a lot of sales. That's got to hurt.
Maybe that's why Orange prefer to stick with processes that they know well. They may get stick for not being innovative enough, but at least they know that they can make the number of bikes they need when they need them.
The whole wheelsize thing has certainly hurt Cotic. Without it the Rocket being late would still be annoying, but not such a disaster. I just hope that they don't finally release a 650B version of the Rocket just as the rest of the industry swings back to 26".
Still, if Cy wants to make a bit of money in the meantime he could always write a book on the whole saga. I bet he's got a few stories to tell.
I get the impression that the hardtail business was always going to be Cotic's bread and butter so, the (current) failure of the full suss project is not the end of the world. All that effort plowed in so far though (and not just Cy's), must be pretty soul destroying. TBH not many folks would have even attempted it so it's one of those things that getting close and failing is still pretty damn cool
wrecker - MemberThe vast majority of AM (shouldn't we be calling it enduro now?) seem to be 650 to me. Two remedy models and a few enduros aside
Most of the big manufacturers have a 29er... And for the Remedy there's minor achievements like winning the EWS, being Dirt's trailbike of the year... Still the best bike I've ever ridden, it and the big Five really opened my eyes to what a 29er can ride like.
throw in things like the Tallboy LT and the RM instinct and there are a few knocking on the door. Some tweaks and there will be some great bikes on the market especially for those that can ride them well. I'm really enjoying my new 100mm 29r FS as it's making me ride better
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"? Surely they would buy a frame that worked with 26" now but 27.5" later?
I loved my ugly old Hemlock, and I'm sure I'd love a Rocket but it it would need to work with my Hope Hoops & Pike forks.
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"? Surely they would buy a frame that worked with 26" now but 27.5" later?
How many of them want a new frame, can you make a 26/650 hybrid that is not a compromise at either size. Wheels (if you got quality hubs) are just rims and spokes away from being 650, some forks work, some can be spaced.
Yeah, I've got a ton of top end 26er stuff but if I wanted a new frame for them, I'd buy one of the million undervalued used frames that are out there now, rather than a new frame. Obviously not everyone is into buying used, but then, the sort of person that's hoarded 26er parts and wants to build a totally new bike out of them is probably more likely to be?
I guess it all just comes down to, is it better to be a little fish in the big pond of 650b and 29, or to be one of the 2 fish in the dried up 26er pond.
Option 3's obviously dropouts like Banshee, but that's not really a perfectionist's option.
I said on another thread the job had gone to the wall.
I can't believe people are still clinging to the vain hope 26" will be a viable wheel size for the future, it's over guys!
Shame Cy couldn't realise his dream it's undoubtedly cost him a fortune but at least he hasn't got a shed full of unsellable 26" stock...apart from the hardtails.
I've been a regular frame changer but all this has put me off, I'm just going to look after my frame and ride it till it dies. If I was buying a whole bike then I wouldn't care if it had different wheels, in fact, I'd love a go on a Codiene. I just don't like being forced to change.
As Northwind says, fingers crossed, there will be lots of great 2nd hand frames to choose from. I suppose, I feel now about mountain bikes like I do about motorbikes. My old and long gone 52 plate Gixxer 600 was so much fun and so far beyond my abilities that everything produced since is just more than I can hope to exploit. Most modern mountain bikes are surely the same and have been since they all got a little slacker with lower BB's. Whatever size wheels, they're all loads of fun & very capable in the right hands 🙂
In a few years, when my bike dies and the whole forward geometry thing has settled down, I'll treat myself to a new 2nd hand one..
And back to what I meant to say originally, it's a shame about the whole project, I loved my Hemlock, I'd like to try and Soul at some point and a 26" Rocket would have been on my list.
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"?
True, but with regular use how long do they last, 6 months a tyre, 2 years of trail use will kill most wheels, forks maybe 3?
+1I guess in 2-3 years the debate might have died off and people shop for a bike not a wheel size though.
Dismissing a wheel size is like saying you dont like bikes with 67.8deg head angles as they're too inbetween 67 and 68, and not really half way between anyway, and there'll always be someone who thinks they should be sold as 1.18333recuring radians not degree.
2 years of trail use will kill most wheels, forks maybe 3?
the hope hoops (soft as cheese dt5.1) on my soul and the fox talas forks are going on for 8 years about 3000 varied miles a year and still look good for a few years yet.
True, but with regular use how long do they last, 6 months a tyre, 2 years of trail use will kill most wheels, forks maybe 3?
This is STW, most bikes don't get ridden so they'll last ages! 🙂
Most of the big manufacturers have a 29er... And for the Remedy there's minor achievements like winning the EWS, being Dirt's trailbike of the year... Still the best bike I've ever ridden
Some odd points. The EWS has been won on a 26" Cannondale and (absolutely blitzed) a 650B Yeti. Doesn't make them the best bikes in the world.
Some like 29s, some don't. I don't.
It's looking like my options for a shorter travel 26" FS frame now rest almost soley with either expensive custom or Chinese carbon.
wrecker - MemberSome odd points. The EWS has been won on a 26" Cannondale and (absolutely blitzed) a 650B Yeti. Doesn't make them the best bikes in the world.
Nope, but it proves the capability and suitability for the job.
Graves switched midseason btw, he was on the 26er Yeti til, I think, Colorado.
Nope, but it proves the capability and suitability for the job.
Is it in doubt? Its a long travel full sus, of course it's suitable!
More pertinently of course, it was ridden by Tracy Mosely. Same goes for the Yeti, Graves just wins races. DH, XC, Enduro. Doesn't matter really.
Mosely would probably have won on a 650b, and graves would probably have won on a 29.
Funny, didn't think this was a wheel size post but, I'm thinking of trying 26 in my 650b frame coz I kinda miss the excitement and reaction speed..
I've had all of them, still got a 29, it is horses for courses imho! It depends what you like and what/how/where you ride and how good you are...
On topic I liked the rocket, like the company, applaud the effort and hope it comes good. I also think 650b is the right business decision, like it or not the industry and target market has decided that.
wrecker - MemberIs it in doubt?
Apparently...
wrecker - MemberI hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
Apparently...
And I bet that there isn't a 29 enduro or remedy for much longer.....2 years maybe.
This is STW, most bikes don't get ridden so they'll last ages!
True, since joining the real world after university my bike kit lasts much longer 🙁
Need to sets some propper goals for next year.
but, I'm thinking of trying 26 in my 650b frame coz I kinda miss the excitement and reaction speed..
With 650 in my 26 frame I can't really say the reaction speed is slower just an inch further up.
With 650 in my 26 frame I can't really say the reaction speed is slower just an inch further up.
Half inch surely?
Have you 650'd your LTc?
its an inch or so further out, and a bit heavier, inevitably, it definitely tames stuff more in my experience, but not as much as 29. I like it 650b, I think it is a middle way but I have quite liked going back to a few of my mates 26 bikes. As such intrigued to try 26 in the same frame. I have enough flexibility in a head angle chip so it doesn't make the BB too stoopid low, though its on the limit for the travel.
I also think 650b is the right business decision, like it or not the industry and target market has decided that.
Sadly it is the right business decision.
Good luck to them.
However, the target market decided nothing.
If some people prefer to delude themselves into thinking that they had anything to do with 'choosing' 650b then fine.
That's the way the industry have written it and the media just repeat what they are told to.
Choice had nothing to do with it - 650b was forced onto the market.
I feel better now.
🙂
wrecker - MemberAnd I bet that there isn't a 29 enduro or remedy for much longer.....2 years maybe.
I'll take that bet- there's very few manufacturers that don't have a 29er of this ilk now and those are 2 companies most into it- there's a brand new carbon Remedy 29 just out, that's a big commitment. They even invented some bullshit rear axle bullshit for it.
Put yer money where your mouth is? I bet you 2 scottish pence. And more generally I reckon most companies will continue to carry them too.
Yep and once we're all on 650b, they'll start to push us into 29 again.
I give it 2-3 years and then you'll see World Cup DH 29ers.
I'm not sure it's all the industries fault though - there are plenty of consumers who have pushed it too
[i]I give it 2-3 years and then you'll see World Cup DH 29ers.[/i]
No, it'll be 26" full fat or 27.5+ next for DH racing.
I'm not sure it's all the industries fault though - there are plenty of consumers who have pushed it too
Never met any.
Not seen any evidence.
I do not believe the industry people who say this.
I wonder how many forum posts there were begging for 650b?
Yes, a few people on here were early adopters, but the vast, vast majority seemed perfectly happy with 26 or 29.
As usual, someone from the industry will be along shortly to disagree.
Just as they disagreed when people mentioned that the proliferation of wheel sizes would adversely affect smaller manufacturers.
I give it 2-3 years and then you'll see World Cup DH 29ers.
Bet you don't.
there's a brand new carbon Remedy 29 just out, that's a big commitment.
It is, but if it doesn't sell then you can bet they'll can it. There are far fewer Spesh 29ers in the trail/AM category now they've gone 650.
Put yer money where your mouth is? I bet you 2 scottish pence.
That's about 1/2 an english pence is it not? 😀
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"?
I'm one.
I spotted all this wheel size shenanigans happening, held on as long as possible and bought a really nice frame and fork for buttons, early last year.
There's no reason I can't get 6+ years out of the forks, all the service parts are shared with bigger wheeled forks. All other consumables will be easy peasy to get for years, and probably really cheap too.
I've got noting at all against bigger wheels, but I just can't be arsed to swap all my (really nice) kit over, and nor can I justify the expense.
I do love the flighty, direct ride of 26in though.
I looked the other day, and there's still brand new, straight steerer, 26in forks available very easily too.
Most people buy into the newest niche. I'm just biding my time until I become part of the year 2020 niche... 🙂