Right, here's the situation. See if anyone can help. We rode in Les Arcs in the summer with a company which offered guided rides, catered chalet, airport transfers, the lot. We had a great time aand were ready to sign back up for next year, but.... It seems the French, bless them, are not massive fans of foreign companies bringing foreign cash into an area where a guide is essential (in my opinion). Instead, they'd rather we hire one of their guides (I presume) making the whole experience rather different (hassle). Now I'm all for competition and fairness and cannot see what benefit this is going to be to a)the local ecomony, as we probably won't be going back if thats the case and b)the numerous british (and possibly other nationalities)companies who have worked hard over a good few years to build up the knowledge and client base that means that they can offer a superb service which makes riding in places like Les Arcs a safe (as much as can be expected)experience as possible.
My point is, if this is happening in France, can we expect places like Italy to follow suit?
Long winded I know but I'm a bit peeved (should have expected it mind, they've been moaning about the ski guiding for years)
Have you been to Italy?
The idea of the Italians or Spanish (for that matter) passing a law and then actually enforcing it is frankly as about as likely as a Greek paying tax.
Yep, been to Italy and loved it. Will be going back if we cant get this nonsense sorted out....
What's the problem with France? Haven't heard of any issues from any of the companies operating in the area (and planning to go back to White Room next year...)
How can it be ALL mountain, if you only ride down the way?
How can it be ALL mountain, if you only ride down the way?
different topic
There were inspections by the French authorities in Les Arcs this summer, similar to what happened in Morzine a few years ago. We, presumably along with the other British-owned companies in the area, were specifically targeted by inspectors who had done their homework on us and knew who they were looking for.
I don't know how this is affecting other companies in the area, but I'd like to make it clear that we (The White Room) all hold French-recognised qualifications and we are therefore completely unaffected by this. On the day we were inspected at the bottom of the lifts, we waved our credentials and carried-on.
We use 2 British-trained guides (my wife and I) plus one local French guide.
Ah. that may be the difference then. not entirely sure what qualifications are used by other companies. certainly, we've been told that our last hosts can't offer guiding next year.
I was going to say, France is still in the EU isn't it? As long as you've got the appropriate tickets they can't stop an EU citizen working there.
I was going to say, France is still in the EU isn't it? As long as you've got the appropriate tickets they can't stop an EU citizen working there.
The French interpretation is not quite as simple as that. They will recognise EU qualis that they have assessed as being "equivalent" to their own.
The French authorities also applied for (and were granted) exemption for specific professions. In terms of sport, this includes ski instructors, mountain guides and mountain leaders (and, I believe, diving instructors). It's not clear to me if "mountain bike guide" is encompassed within "mountain leader", but it seems that's the stance they're taking.
what about Saalbach-Hinterglemm?
i can recommend you a friend of mine, but you'll have to communicate using sign language and/or random gestures. even the Germans don't understand him.
nice bloke, mind. and the riding is good, too.
Contact the company and see if they'd allow mates to stay with them and ride their bikes with them (rather than paying a fee based on services...the services would be provided for 'mates' - who as a thank you would pay for meals and the like!)
Stevo has the idea - I'd just book with them the food and good riding helps too 🙂
This was going round Morzine a few years ago too.
Contact the company and see if they'd allow mates to stay with them and ride their bikes with them (rather than paying a fee based on services...the services would be provided for 'mates' - who as a thank you would pay for meals and the like!)
This doesn't really work at one point the carted off a dad for guiding as they didn't believe that he actually had 4 kids or something. They wanted all the passports to prove it.
I'd rather my guide was fully qualified [b][u]and[/u][/b] meeting the local requirements to have a stress free holiday.
I hope this nonsense isn't affecting Ash and Ali at TrailAddiction.
I hope it isn't affecting the Mountain Bike Chalet crew either. I want to go back next year.
mike-at-dialledbikes - Member
I hope this nonsense isn't affecting Ash and Ali at TrailAddiction.POSTED 4 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
getonyourbike - Member
I hope it isn't affecting the Mountain Bike Chalet crew either. I want to go back next year
Nonsense it may be but it is the rules in France and has been for years and years.
It will impact anyone who does not have the required locally acknowledged credentials (Not saying any do or don't you need to check or they need to advertise it). It's another hoop to jump through but that is it.
I was involved with all of this with ski guiding and instructing in the Tarentaise ( les arcs, tignes etc...)a few years ago. If the company is French registered and the guides all hold qualifications that are recognised by the ministre de Jeunesse et sport (or whatever they're called now) then they'll have no problems as long as all the staff are on a French payroll and making their social security/tax contributions in France.
If the company barely has a legal presence in France, pays cash in hand, doesn't declare their staff or hold the necessary qualification that their French counterparts have then bonjour les controles!
We had a few visits in the years I was there an they were always a hassle. Often caused by jealous neighbouring businesses but if they were playing by the rules and you weren't then I guess they had a point. We were always legit and if I'm honest it did pi55 me off when I saw other Brits come out and take the mickey
So is this just blatant French protectionism/chauvinism? How do they get away with it?
It's been like this for years. I was caught out by the authorities 6 years ago. It was a fairly painful and expensive experience. When it happened to me we publicised the situation far and wide.[bodie]The guys you refer to were made aware too, they chose to carry on in the same way as I had been so should not be hugely surprised by this result. In the end it has worked out for the best for me, there is no question about the legality of my guiding qualification, insurance etc and I am operating on a level playing field with the local guides, which they certainly prefer. It's true, this is not in the spirit of the EU directive which is a pig, but then (at the moment) the UK can hardly take the moral high-ground. Whenever I bring up that argument in France they just fall about laughing - the UK is well know in Europe for not wanting to play ball with the EU! Anyway on this subject I would suggest a complaint to the EU, it's surprisingly easy to do and it just adds ammo to their quest to weaken the French protectionist policies. Though now I am toeing the line - I benefit from these policies! A situation BASI and the British ski instructors are now comfortable with too.
should be interesting to see how trailaddiction et al go about their guiding next year...
sounds like all the guides will need to the IML
Thanks for the comments guys. we'll just have to have another look at our options, whether that means other companies in les arcs or heading to Italy.
bodie, which company out of interest.
We were at the bottom of the lift in Les Arcs in August when the little French man with his red brief case was stopping every one and taking every guides name and who they worked for.
Second week was with Bike Verbier, been loads of time with them and they dont have that problem. Going back next year for two weeks with them.
I dont see a problem.
Imagine the outrage if some French holiday company turned up at your trail center with a French guide and French guests. Lots of people would moan about it.
I cant argue with locals wanting to protect their own employment and keep out others, thats as likely here as anywhere else and entirely natural. If there were no French guides, or they were not good enough, that would be another matter, but its not the case.
Luffy and Endlessrides's posts point out that they is nothing massively unreasonable going on here. If this was the same situation in my profession in this country I would be upset at unregulated outsiders coming in to make a quick buck at the cost of my income.
Whenever I bring up that argument in France they just fall about laughing - the UK is well know in Europe for not wanting to play ball with the EU!
Fair point!
bodie, which company out of interest.
The mountainbike Chalet. Sure they won't mind as they'll be having to advertise the fact that they can't offer guiding next year. Pity, they gave us probably the best bike holiday outside whistler.
Just to clear something up. I had not realised that Bodie was referring to "The Mountain Bike Chalet", I thought he was referring to another operator in that area (who I hear is having some grief), I'll not say who this is - because as far as I am concerned it's only hearsay. Though from my point of view I think everyone should know. After the grief in Morzine there were a few companies that wanted to form a trade organisation to wave the flag for the legal tour-ops and distinguish ourselves from the fly-by-nights and the bullshitters, we never managed.
[i]"After the grief in Morzine there were a few companies that wanted to form a trade organisation to wave the flag for the legal tour-ops and distinguish ourselves from the fly-by-nights and the bullshitters, we never managed."[/i]
We tried that in skiing for years too and got nowhere.
Was it a combination of 1. There are so few who are whiter than white it would look stupid or 2. Everyone has a skeleton to hide somewhere? Or more likely they are the same thing. I figured we might manage "The company is French and pays it's taxes. All employees are on a proper contract in France. If you advertise guiding everyone is qualified (and recognised in France)" The fact is the average customer isn't bothered. They just want the holiday as described in the advertising. Which is fair enough.
Well they are still advertising guiding
[url] http://www.themountainbikechalet.com/mountain-bike-chalet-pricing.html [/url]
1 and two and....
3. Nobody could agree a time to meet up let alone agree what we were going to do.
4. No one was prepared to stick their heads above the parapet.
5. Any discussions that were had tended to either be very guarded or very heated.
it ended up being a farce so I just ended up presenting our case to the relevants and invited them to inspect us and suggest upon things we were missing. That was the last contact I ever had with the MdJS, gendarmes etc.. They left us well alone and got busy chasing other people. Even at those silly road blocks they have at the bottom of the hill, if they recognised me or saw that it was our staff we got waved through.
So is this just blatant French protectionism/chauvinism? How do they get away with it?
Well by having thougher guiding/teaching qualification. Plus it's not like the UK is that much in the EU anyway.
Plus it's not like the UK is that much in the EU anyway.
....other than one of the few nett contributors of course. No need to thank us Juan.
Anyway this is easily solved. If the French don't want the brits operating companies then they can do without our business too. There are plenty of others who will welcome us.
Well let me check:
UK using metrics : nope
UK using euro : nope
UK playing alone when face with austerity measures : yeap
And the list goes on. It is an amazing place to live, but the UK is frankly against EU.
Eu lovers or not (besides the point of the thread)It sounds like there are a lot of inconsistancies regarding enforcement.
Its a bit "GET ON WITH IT" there are local rules go play by them.
The UK gets hung up on EU rules about stuff and misses the fact that the rest of Europe tends to treat them as advisory guidelines.
It would be very silly to offer a product that you are likely to get in trouble for doing even if by the letter of the law you are right. As much as it's a PITA following some local guidance and making life easier is the way to go.
As said above the inspectors know who is legit and who isn't so they will just get waved through.
I was always wary on big group trips to Morzine that by trying to heard 12 mates in one direction may end up with being called guiding as opposed to having been there before. In the end we had the plan to just spread out a bit and hide if there was a problem 🙂 This wont work when you have paid to be guided.
Hi All.
I just got forwarded this thread. I run The Mountain Bike Chalet and along with Sam at Bike Village are working very hard to ensure that we are above board. It is true that the operations will probably not be the same this coming summer due to the french authorities, however, we are doing our very best to get qualified asap. There will no doubt be other companies in the area who think they are too big for the law, will carry on employing guides with little or no quals and will royal **** it up for everyone in the area. We really hope this wont be the case. We will try and keep everyone up to date with any further details. British Cycling are behind us to help resolve this too.
Good luck mansell,
I hope it works out for you and glad BC are supporting. I used to live in Nancroix and love the area that you're based in. Les Arcs is just fantastic for mountain biking and you're definitely in one of the prettier villages. Not going to teach you to suck eggs as i'm sure you know what you're doing but try to get as many of the locals on side as possible, they will help your cause no end. There used to be a mountain bike guide there called Eric who was involved in the nightclub. Is he still there?
Eric is still around, yeah.
Jeez, still the last man standing at night and the first man up the hill? He must be knocking on a bit now. It was 13 years ago when I lived there.
Runs his own Bike School now, don't know if he always did that. No idea on the nightclub front, I live across the valley!
La Ros or Montchavin/Plagne?
Sainte Foy (moving down to Seez soon though).
Nice. Loved St Foy, great skiing. I imagine we have a few friends in common as still know a few people there. Nothing better than afternoon beers at the Monal. As for Seez, I lived a season there too. I rented a flat from a Scottish Ski instructor who had married a French guy. They both teach in val and still live there. It's a handy place but very quiet.
Hmmm this is an interesting subject, we regularly drop into the trials in Val Roya (Provence)from the Italain border as well as the trails around the Cote d'azur. We have never been approached by the French authorities...
We are based in Italy so not sure how this would work if they decide to have a chat!!!
As for Italy dont worry, they are a long long way off from doing any qualifications. In Molini where we operate the village gets shed loads of money via our guests (bars, hotels etc..)...ultimately money talks...if I did a catered chalet and took all the money then it might be a different matter... could this be why French authorities are clamping down...sharing the wealth and all that?
They way I understood it was that to guide above 1500m you have to have a specific mountain leadership qualification which involves expensive and largely irrelevant training to mountain biking. It seems that at the moment the type of qualifications a bike guide would get in the uk are not recognised and this is where the just riding round with my mates bit comes in. The problem is going to be if one of your group has a massive stack and needs carting off the mountain and then lets on to his insurance company that he was on a guided mountain bike holiday.
Luffy, was that Elaine?
The one and same! She's quite the cyclist too these days I see! Annoyingly excellent on both skis and a bike. 🙂 If you see her say hi from me. She'll know who I am from my forum name.
Try Switzerland with these guys www.bikeverbier.com - absolutely superb in every respect.
You'll not be so bothered about visiting France ever again.
Quick question for Mansell. You say you are trying to get qualified asap. Are you trying to get equivalency of your UK qualifications or sit the new(ish) VTT guiding diploma in France?
Nasher, my understanding is that as long as the ride starts and finishes in Italy, you are fine on the qualifications you are riding on in Italy (though you might want to chat with the French authorities to double check!!) to ride across the border, certainly it's the technique a lot of Swiss based operations use to guide around Chamonix & Portes du Soleil
Grum p: The main problem is that the french authorities want verified hours of every single bit of mountain biking you have done along with the qualifications. When they train their guides, they put in hundreds of hours over seeing and mentoring them. To take your British Cycling TCL and MBLA quals (even though you should have had your minimum requirement of days before) no body actually accompanies you on these or sometimes even checks. However, if you do not meet the standard you would fail the exams (as you should) and it would be rather evident. At the moment, we are working with british and french authorities to work out some équivalence so that this can all be resolved. Long and Short is trying to do everything we can to get this sorted. Looks like unless you are going to be living in france then it will not be possible though!
I wish you the best in getting it sorted before next summer. Hopefully having the British Cycling also arguing the case will help, BASI succeeded in the end after all!
The current recommended equivalence (I.M.L. and a UK MTB qualification) does seem a ridiculous overkill for 99% of guided riding.
The French diploma system looks like it should produce good guides ( http://www.formation-velo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34&Itemid=44 ) but everyone I speak to who has been involved in gaining a French guiding qualification (though not the VTT one) has said that, if you are a none-native French speaker (and this includes Belgians and (eastern)Swiss) then you will struggle.
Will you still be running van uplift next year?
Grum - BASI succeeded by essentially making their qualification process identical to the French one!
I fully agree BTW, IML+MBL is overkill, but until we get a decent MTB qualification in the UK, the French are not going to accept it.
expensive and largely irrelevant training to mountain biking.
Says who? So you think teaching people around trail centres is the same as getting a group along a ridge at several thousand m of altitude?
where the just riding round with my mates bit comes in.
French laws apply, the one with the highest qualification/experience gets responsibility for the accident. And ultimately, the "mate riding" gets discovered. Good luck with that.
if you are a none-native French speaker (and this includes Belgians and (eastern)Swiss) then you will struggle.
you mean, like a non native English speaker will struggle to get a British degree?
How can it be ALL mountain, if you only ride down the way?
I beleive it was Samuel Johnson who said ""Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having ridden up before riding down"
Juan I am only repeating what I have been told by a friend who has managed to guide in the PDS for 15 years and never needed to build a snow cave or do a crevasse rescue. Summer bike guiding surely requires summer mountain skills and generally not higher than 2500m. By the way there is rather more to riding in the uk than trail centers and believe it or not Scotland and even Wales have some mountains.
There isn't much snow shoeing in your average days MTB guiding, and there isn't much mountain biking in your average days trekking in the Himalaya. Whilst the I.M.L. qualification is a respected badge to have and shows the holder is very, very competent in the mountains, it isn't of much relevance to MOST days mtb guiding.
Juan, I apologise. I should have made clear that I was not meaning you should be able to sit the diploma in Franglais. Whilst at university a great number of my fellow students didn't speak English as a first language. (I'm Scottish, it could be argued [i]I[/i] don't speak it as a first language!) however they got by and allowances were made for how their accent/grammar/use of vocabulary. Friends who have spoken French since childhood, but have the wrong accent, have had some very unpleasant experiences whilst training for both high and middle mountain guide in France. This doesn't mean it happens to everyone and that it is endemic, but it is the experience they have had.
What people are trying to get is an equivalence of qualification that allows guides to work across borders as with, say, UIAGM in the high mountains where holders, irrespective of the country they gained the qualification in, are respected around the world. This may mean the UK has to up the standard, or that other countries may have to change the emphasis, but it would be good if it can happen.
Grum p - IML has become the recognised path for British bike guides only because there is no robust British Bike Guide qualification.
For the French, there are 2 paths to becoming a bike guide - either become an MCF (Cycling Instructor) and specialise in Mountain Biking or become an Accompagnateur en Moyenne Montagne (Mountain Leader) and add a bike-guiding module.*
Ideally, there would be a British Cycling qualification with a similar amount of training and commitment as the MCF. We would then have a direct equivalance and nobody would have to go snowshoeing. As it is, our MTB Leadership schemes are fragmented and lightweight and we therefore have to go for the approach of gaining equivalance to the French Mountain Leaders instead of the French MTB Instructors.
The MCFs do not have to do very much of the mountain safety stuff that the mountain leaders do, they are pure cycling / mountain-biking specialists.
There is, in fact, a small amount of friction between the Accompagnateurs and the MCFs, with one group saying the other is p*sh at riding bikes and one group saying the other couldn't navigate their way out of a paper bag. That's another matter and I have no opinion on this! 😉
*This is actually changing at the moment, as I understand it all wannabe sports instructors will now do a common entrance exam and basic training (e.g. in fitness, anatomy, teaching) before going on to specialise in their chosen sports.
There is, in fact, a small amount of friction between the Accompagnateurs and the MCFs, with one group saying the other is p*sh at riding bikes and one group saying the other couldn't navigate their way out of a paper bag. That's another matter and I have no opinion on this!
Good to see there is enough local politics to keep you all busy in the off season 😉
Whilst going further and further from the original theme of the thread, it's very interesting to hear professionals take on the current situation! Cheers Whiteroom, Rivierabike & Mountain Bike Chalet for the insight.
It would seem to be in the interests of all the alpine countries to agree on a common equivilancy. Foreign tourist pennies are the best pennies you can get and foreign guides and holiday companies attract them better than the locals.
Whilst going further and further from the original theme of the thread, it's very interesting to hear professionals take on the current situation! Cheers Whiteroom, Rivierabike & Mountain Bike Chalet for the insight.
It would seem to be in the interests of all the alpine countries to agree on a common equivilancy. Foreign tourist pennies are the best pennies you can get and foreign guides and holiday companies attract them better than the locals.
Thanks Grum p It's been great hearing from all these guys actually having to deal with this "problem". There's a huge market (foreign and local)in all outdoor/alpine adventures and the sooner they can standardise the required qualifications the sooner the paying customers can book their activities with confidence and the guides/chalets/instructors can look forward to a season of getting on with their jobs instead of looking over their shoulders waiting for "the man" to come and drag them away. Thanks again
Well it is the first time I hear about the frictions between MCF and GMM. I ride with people who own both and I have yet to tell the difference between them, whether it's in riding or map riding skills.
The MCF has a compulsory module about orientating. And as far as I know, people coming from the GMM route are usually blokes who rode bikes when most MCF where enjoying self pleasuring over the argos underwear pages. I don't concur with the irrelevance of having a "moyenne montagne" qualification as I had at some point been caught by "unexpected" snow/rain in the middle of a sunny day and I was glad to be with people who knew what to do. One other point that no one seems to mention is that working condition are quite different between the UK and the rest of the EU.
*This is actually changing at the moment, as I understand it all wannabe sports instructors will now do a common entrance exam and basic training (e.g. in fitness, anatomy, teaching) before going on to specialise in their chosen sports.
Well this is a third way to become a cycling instructor. You get your BE. A common block (fitness, anatomy, teaching, law) and then once you got it validated (or get to your thrid year of posrt science Uni) you can get as many specification as you want (each depending to the relevant governing bodies).
Where do you now stand if it really is a group of mates hiring a chalet together and a couple of them have ridden the area before. Do the ones who have been before become 'guides' because they know their way round?
Technically yes, unless another one has some specific qualification.
Who would be in charge if no-one had been before and you all have a copy of the same map?
Who would be in charge if no-one had been before and you all have a copy of the same map?
They go through the alphabet. If your name is andrew, you're probably screwed. 😀
I'll be avoiding France I think. Plenty of good alternatives popping up.
As a representative of trailAddiction, apologies that it took so long for one of us to get to this thread. We've actually been busy sorting this situation out.
I won't get involved in any discussion, I'm just here to deliver one clear message, for the record:
trailAddiction [u][i][b]WILL[/b][/i][/u] be offering trail guiding as part of its package(s) in 2013. Every guide which trailAddiction uses will possess a qualification explicitly recognised and accepted by the relevant French authority.
I know Ash I wasn't talking about you in any way, as I have met your people and I know they have the appropriate qualification. And I know you have been using fully qualified French BE in the past.
Didn't realise MIAS was covered in france Ash?
Where do you now stand if it really is a group of mates hiring a chalet together and a couple of them have ridden the area before. Do the ones who have been before become 'guides' because they know their way round?
You have nothing to worry about. (for this situation) the law in France only covers people that are being paid. You can even buy them lunch!
Although I am qualified in France via the IML route there are many other ways, the problem with the "equivalence" with the UK is the specific MTB qualifications in the UK are just not at the same level as those in France. There is a similar argument with the skiing, in the end BASI gave in and raised the level of their qualifications to match the French. You could say that for the vast majority of ski teaching the level required is completely irrelevant.