[Closed] 650B - dead already

I hate to break it to all of you saying road bikes are more popular than MTBs where I live and " I never see 650b bikes when I'm out " etc but the UK is one tiny portion of what is a huge global business and manufacturers will make what they can sell globally which means your experience may not be very representative of the overall picture .

Why is there no great debate among motorists about the ever increasing trend to bigger wheels with ever lower profile tyres on cars?
Mostly driven by marketing and image - just like bikes.

Seems to me the OP needs to nip down to specsavers....

tomhoward:cheeky, what size rims do you suggest?

If 650B really isn't selling they will cease to be made. What comes after that, who knows?

It's so fast I didn't know it was there - must have mistaken it for a 26" bike with high rollers on

Maybe you thought it was a 29er? The front tyre is only 1/2" short of that... :p

There were loads of them at QECP today too!

At least you can put 27.5" forks on a 26" bike - try putting tapered forks on a bike with a 1 1/8" headtube....

I haven't seen darkcyan around here for a long time.

That guy really knows his stuff, shame he never posts anymore.

theocb - you stumped me there!

Grahamh link says a lot,

People take a lot of pride in their bikes and do seek appreciation.
You spend a shit load of money on a bike you want people to tell you how awesomez it is.

There was someone on here just after orange brought out the 650b five who had just bought a new. 26" and was quite pissed off , talking about would the bigger wheels fit his bike or maybe trading for the new one.

Now I am guessing he felt like he had gone from hero to zero overnight .
Yesterday he because of his bike was the envy of his cycling friends , today was the guy who dropped a wedge on a obsolete bike. Because Nothing physically had changed about his bike he still had a great bike, but now would have to listen all the bs about how much better the newer one was. Unless he believed the hype himself.

I am pretty shit as mountainbikers go so will never receive plaudits on my off-road prowess, so sadly only can hope for acclaim on how wide my bars are, short my stem is or how big my wheels are.

If only I could ride like matey boy who had no rear tyre, It would save me a fortune.

I think a lot of people have had the jam taken out of their donut by the switch and are pissed of about it.

@suburbanrueban, I came across a report that put the UK market a second to Germany in number of bikes sold. Then France , then Italy. The Netherlands spent more per average.
The market was worth about 2 billion euros per annum in Germany and 1.2 in the UK.

There was a stall selling about 6 mountain bikes by Lapierre, Nukeproof and Kona - they were all 650b. These, gentlemen are FACTS. (facts without a conclusion, I grant you, but facts all the same).

errrmmm, "FACT" that the manufacturers are trying to force us into something??

@suburbanrueban, I came across a report that put the UK market a second to Germany in number of bikes sold. Then France , then Italy. The Netherlands spent more per average.
The market was worth about 2 billion euros per annum in Germany and 1.2 in the UK.

That's the European market not the global one .

no ones pointing a 650b sized gun at your head forcing you to buy a new bike

the only thing thats really been an issue for me was tyres (i got my old hubs built onto some new light bicycle rims so a second set of wheels for racing)

and if im honest my stockpile of tyres are at least 50% worn
so ive had to buy some new tyres and they grip better than my old ones
so its all gravy baby!

also once brant finishes testing his 650b smorgs and cunkys then even thats not such an issue

an considering 650b bikes have only been generally available for a couple of years there were loads at the QECP race today

Ok, so I am a huge fan of titanium because of its longevity. I don't earn a bundle (physics teacher) and have recently splashed on a 26" ti hardtail (hardtails - a whole nother thread there...) hoping my new handsome steed would carry me safely into the foreseeable future.

I am understandibly concerned that it will be more and more difficult to find new fox 1 1/8 forks for it as the years roll by, not to mention tyres etc.

Someone mentioned the european market and the UK market etc. Anyone who does any global touring would be mad not to be on a 26". Why? Because the entire 3rd world is and will be for years to come, predominantly going round on 26" bikes. And trust me, third worlders know how to make their shit work till its dead.

There will always be a 26" market, it might become a bit more niche than it is now, but while there are 26" bikes out there, theres money to be made by providing for them. The manouvre ability of a 26" bike and the fact that it is unanimously (well... sort of ;p ) agreed as the most 'fun' and 'responsive' wheel size means that there will always be niche consumers and providers in the marketplace. Hell, you can still buy and produce vinyls quite easily. Not to mention black and white 35mm film roll. Don't panic.

I am braced for the torrent of abuse for my sweeping generalisations. Come at me people.

Have you not noticed that UK cycling is BIG at the moment, in all disciplines. It is probably (prove me wrong) the second most important market in the world.

can you prove it is the 2nd most important market?!

without delving into sales figures that manufacturers won't give you, it's impossible to say, but believe me, the uk is significant, but not the second most important market in the world, by a long stretch.

in europe, germany rules the roost, and given that a lot of mainland europe shares similar ideals as to how bikes are specced, most european bikes are specced to suit them - something which uk brand managers have to struggle against.

spesh continue pushing 29" because thats what sells in the US and giant is pushing 650b because 29" doesn't sell well in asia.

uk specific brands think about uk riders, the rest, frankly, don't.

oh bollocks, just realised i contributed to a wheel size debate on the internet.

kill me now.

The thing is, the new range of 650b bikes offer longer slacker geometry, which means faster bikes.

Kona have a new Process with 26" wheels that fits that description perfectly.

Somehow a large chunk of the bike industry didn't realise that the wheel size debate was not about finding some 'goldilocks' wheel size but about (eventually) getting bikes with wheel sizes appropriate to the rider.

there's nothing intrinsically wrong with say 26" wheels if you are 5'2" or less, but wholly inappropriate if you are six feet tall.

im so glad that 29ers gained acceptance...its been like waiting for the shoe manufacturer's to offer trainers in size twelve

there's nothing intrinsically wrong with say 26" wheels if you are 5'2" or less, but wholly inappropriate if you are six feet tall.

Anyway I'm glad 3 pages in we have a definitive conclusion to the debate.

Dude, Absolute shit.. 29ers are for people who suck, or XC racers. 26ers are for experts who dont race, for pure fun and adrenaline rippin'.

I am 6'2, and have bought 3 bikes in 2014, all 26ers. A giant glory, a commencal meta SX, and a Commencal Meta Hardtail SX. Im a freerider, and so are all my buddies, and its so funny when we hear people taking about how fast they are on there new ****en 27.5 or 29. and then we whoop there ass on our 26ers. Waiting for 5 minutes at the bottom...

Its all about the rider. I have been riding my whole life, many different bikes every year, and I will not buy a 29er until im 60. I made a vow to the bike god.

can you prove it is the 2nd most important market?!

Someone wake me up when the bicycle industry comes up with some genuine innovation rather than the very expensive turd polishing we have at the moment.

As someone who goes through rear mechs more than he goes through brake pads, I want a solution to this problem first.

Until then I'm sticking to hub gears on my hardtails while my next full susser will be one of these.

http://www.zerodebikes.com/page/Bikes/

Or maybe one of these if they raise the pivot point by 3 or 4 inches and used dogbone linkage.

http://www.cavalerie-bikes.com/#!cadres/cjg9

Actually, I think I might just wait until someone make a lighter [url= ]Brooklyn Machine Works [/url] with a gearbox or even just a singlespeed.

There's a reason motorcycle manufacturers don't stray too far from this set up. It can work for mountain bikes too if we can ever break our addiction to this stupid gear system that is completely inappropriate to our needs.

If, while they're at it, they can see their way to looking into getting the most out of cast aluminium that would be great too. There are alternatives to the double triangle, it just takes a bit more work than increasing the wheel size by 0.03%. Making your top tube all swoopy is also not innovation, just more polishing a turd.

only 3 pages till that gem of BS came out. Best tell all the 6ft 26" riders and 5ft 29" riders they are on the wrong bikes

Well you should ride what you feel best on, I'm 6ft2" & had 26ers for 15 years, it wasn't until I tried a 29er 6 years ago that I realised how better I felt & how much more confident it made me on trails. So I'd not dismiss the size = size formula out of hand

Actually, I think I might just wait until someone make a lighter Brooklyn Machine Works with a gearbox or even just a singlespeed.

Have looked at Pinion bikes & 18bikes custom gearbox frame?

Ok, so I am a huge fan of titanium because of its longevity.

The material yes, having it stay in a frame shape might not quite last so long if you look at all the broken/cracked frame stories on here and other forums

Maybe you thought it was a 29er? The front tyre is only 1/2" short of that... :p

One of the journos was writing before about being out on a Santa Cruz and this bloke rolled up & asked if it was the then-new Bronson, and started raving about it. Until the journo pointed out it was a Tallboy LT, at which point the bloke lost interest.

I am understandibly concerned that it will be more and more difficult to find new fox 1 1/8 forks for it as the years roll by, not to mention tyres etc.

This came up on one of the other threads - at least one of the big fork manufacturers anticipated having 1? steerer forks (or at least CSUs) available for some time to come.

also once brant finishes testing his 650b smorgs and cunkys then even thats not such an issue

Why will Brant be doing this?

I'm 6ft2" & had 26ers for 15 years, it wasn't until I tried a 29er 6 years ago that I realised how better I felt & how much more confident it made me on trails. So I'd not dismiss the size = size formula out of hand

also once brant finishes testing his 650b smorgs and cunkys then even thats not such an issue
Why will Brant be doing this?

Especially as he left OnOne/PlanetX

Mike Smith, will any of my new husbands buy me a 650b? 😀

Have looked at Pinion bikes & 18bikes custom gearbox frame?

The main thing I want is a 7" high pivot point and dogbone linkage. I'm not sure if I would trust even the best custom frame maker to design and build it. I'm assuming BMW had to go through a few iterations before they got the design they wanted and even then it weighed about the same as a BMW car.

Maybe I'll just do what [url= http://dirtmountainbike.com/news/homemade-bikes-welwyn-machine-works.html#!bowxYX ]this guy[/url] did and live with singlespeed until someone comes up with an aftermarket gearbox.

rockohardpack - Member

I will not buy a 29er until im 60. I made a vow to the bike god.

What's going to happen to you when you're 60?

I'd love to see the arse fall out of the MTB industry over 650b.
I've never, ever seen such a cynical, nasty, small minded, mean spirited, graceless marketing scam in my life.
I hope those who forced this pointless toss onto the market suffer financially for their decision.
But they won't.
They'll be too busy raking it in by selling the new road standard (whatever that might be) to another bunch of gullible fools.

Did you miss a smiley off this?

Stop taking things personally.
I didn't say there weren't any mountain bikers any more, I just said that people coming into the bike shop I was working in (which still has more floor space given over to MTBs) were, in the main, interested in road bikes, not mountain bikes.
There's no associated shit about lycra in there, nor the fact that you need a road bike to keep up with others, just the facts as I saw them.

I'm not taking it personally, I'm just observing what is happening around me.
Most of the bike shops round here stock a high percentage of mtb's compared to road bikes.
I guess that must have something to do with having such amazing off road riding round here.

There was one road only shop and its just closed down as he went bust.

I'd love to see the arse fall out of the MTB industry over 650b.
I've never, ever seen such a cynical, nasty, small minded, mean spirited, graceless marketing scam in my life.
I hope those who forced this pointless toss onto the market suffer financially for their decision.
But they won't.
They'll be too busy raking it in by selling the new road standard (whatever that might be) to another bunch of gullible fools.

Brant - member

Did you miss a smiley off this?

Nice one Brant 😆 😆

I've not read so much vitriol in a STW thread for some time.

I've not read so much vitriol in a STW thread for some time.

Ah well, #vainvagrant launches at 10am. That should eclipse this.

Hehehe!

These threads remind me of "Who needs a Full Suss anyway?" and "Why do we need disk breaks?" plus fat bikes and SS.

"Why do we need disk breaks?"

*brakes

"These threads remind me of "Who needs a Full Suss anyway?" and "Why do we need disk breaks?" plus fat bikes and SS".

well - i have just gone 29", ss, rigid (frame!) with lovely 29er chunky monkey up front - loving it - though my left elbow and right knee are starting to hurt.

Most of the bike shops round here stock a high percentage of mtb's compared to road bikes.

Yep, as does the shop I was working in (probably 70/30 by volume of bikes), as I said. It's not a road shop, far from it, but customers are walking in off the street and wanting to talk about road bikes, not MTBs.

I guess that must have something to do with having such amazing off road riding round here.

Yep, decent off road riding here too, but generally decent off road = decent road riding...

darkcyan - Member

"These threads remind me of "Who needs a Full Suss anyway?" and "Why do we need disk breaks?" plus fat bikes and SS".
well - i have just gone 29", ss, rigid (frame!) with lovely 29er chunky monkey up front - loving it - though my left elbow and right knee are starting to hurt.

Niche-tastic choice Darkcyan 🙂

I've got a 650b bike.

It rides (to use the Singletrack reviewer's cliche of choice) like a bike".

I have ridden 26", 29" and now 650b. They're all fine. I think 650b may be my favourite, but as it's a new bike it's probably a bit early to tell.

Roll with it. Save kittens. 🙂

Why do we need disk breaks

So someone can fix them?

650b is not new it has been used for ages and is used on both the Millennium Falcon and some of the early model ATAT walkers it can also be found in Snowflake fractals and Bracken spores.

Some riders have found attaching a bungee chord to the spokes of 650b to be highly beneficial having a very similar effect to putting grated cheese in the seat post of a 26 Hardtail

650b is not new it has been used for ages and is used on both the Millennium Falcon and some of the early model ATAT walkers it can also be found in Snowflake fractals and Bracken spores.

Genuine LOLs. Nicking this.

🙂

650b is not new it has been used for ages and is used on both the Millennium Falcon and some of the early model ATAT walkers it can also be found in Snowflake fractals and Bracken spores.

matther01 - Member

Perhaps those that need an extra 1.5 inch are compensating for something else?

They'll still be waiting 😉

DC the reason you are sore is it is so much further to fall from a 29er than from a 26" bike. I am not in the slightest bit sore. It didnt even hurt when I ripped off the scab on my hip from the road rash that had bonded itself into the mesh on my bib shorts. Not even a little bit. A 650b would probably be somewhere in the middle I guess?

Wise words TimP - maybe we should try riding one!

I was at some jumps today with a short run in.
Dude on a 26" wheel bike managed fine, Dude on a 650b bike couldn't get up to speed quick enough and crashed. Proof surely that 650b makes you crash more and should be abandoned on safety grounds.

I dont know anyone who has a new bike who has 26" wheels.

It's here. If you want to sell your new bike on without taking a hit over the equivalent dont buy an old standard.

I rode a (tame) DH Track yesterday on my 29er HT, I'm still alive. How awesome does that make me?

Good spot on the falls from height tho, might get a stinky 2-4 for future adventures.

One of the Shipham crew, its most venerable and respected rider, recently bought a 29er. The shockwaves are still reveberating!

650 what?

[img] [/img]
At least some places are making things much easier to know your limits

Amazing.

"Where are they?"
Surrey.

Nope, 29er country down here.

In fact, most of them seem to be down here, when I was at BPW last October the only 29er was mine.

tomhoward:cheeky, what size rims do you suggest?

what ever one comes on the bike you like the most.

I personally have a 26" HT and 2 650b FS bikes. Wheel size specifically played no part in the decision making process.

I know very few people who've bought a brand new bike in the last year or so, but the ones I do know have mainly been 29er, but also some 650B or Fat-Bike. Lots of the gang have "new-to-them" bike builds though, many of which are 26ers. Very few people I ride with buy complete bikes either.

Darkcyan, you need a little less air in those big tyres you're running I think, that 2.4 Chunky Monkey will run in the 22-24 psi range no probs. Some carbon bars and softer grips might help too with the rigid set-up.

"These threads remind me of "Who needs a Full Suss anyway?" and "Why do we need disk breaks?"

Really? - full suss was an obvious and massive benefit - same as front suss was over rigid. Disc brakes too - an obvious and massive benefit over cantis and V-brakes which was well overdue and well worth the money. Both were genuine, new innovations too - adapted from motorbike technology. 650B's an ancient standard, nothing new, no real advance.

Are they any worse though? Granted, those that feel compelled to upgrade all the time have more to think about, but are the people that buy a new bike once in a blue moon and keep it for quite a while really going to lose out if 650b are what's readily available just now?

So, upside down forks then... 😉

At worst they can't be significantly worse, for the same reason that at best they're not significantly better- it's a very small change. (Nico Vouilloz, the king of bike testing, decided that it's .55% faster on his test track)

The point isn't whether 650b is better or worse; it's whether it's a big enough difference to justify retooling an entire industry, making existing designs and stock obsolete, making your bike worth less and making it harder to upgrade. And tbf I don't think anyone believes it is.

Most of the bike shops round here stock a high percentage of mtb's compared to road bikes.
I guess that must have something to do with having such amazing off road riding round here.

Where is this, then?

RSPCA called; there are only 11 kittens left in the country.

ratherbeintobago - Member
Most of the bike shops round here stock a high percentage of mtb's compared to road bikes.
I guess that must have something to do with having such amazing off road riding round here.
Where is this, then?

Probably Norfolk

In my last post, I was attempting to be prosaic and succinct...should have added some caveats like

Feel free to experiment with different wheel sizes on a 29er for added danger/ excitement/ wilderness touring potential, at the loss of mechanical efficiency and traction.

Personally, though I wouldn't go back to 26", I got fed up with the 'gorilla on a moped' analogy.

There's no reason why someone 5'2" or less shouldn't ride a 29er if it fits. I'm aware that there must be a certain size at which the bigger wheels cause toe overlap and/ or geometry issues.
I just assumed as a ballpark figure that 5'2" was the minimum. My bad.

But to offer only 650b as the perfect, goldilocks wheel size, would be daft, given differences in human height and performance/ thrill-seeking expectations.

I recently rode in a group of 7, and 4 of the 7 were riding 650b wheel bikes. I'd say that's a little way off dead.

I notices Spec have released a couple of models as well - looks like it's hear to stay.

the lads at btr dont seem to think so they busted their balls quite literally bringing this to market

[img][url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14583755010_09d6a5e1a5_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14583755010_09d6a5e1a5_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/odHygU ]btr pinner 650b sneak peak[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people// ]mike mcdermid[/url], on Flickr[/img]

I'm not sure wheel size is the limiting factor for most STW riders 😀

Surely a better title would be

[b]What waist size for STW 36-38" seems to be the standard but I've been over taken by some riders on 32" waists, will a 30-32" waist improve my riding regardless of wheels size?[/b]

Wheel size debate aside, I'd question the OP's grasp of statistics - just because I know nobody who drives a Ford Fiesta doesn't stop it from just becoming the most popular UK car ever.

Setting aside Kitten Murder for a minute I'd Say 650b is here to stay, simply due to industry wide adoption, 26" isn't gone, and it all still works of course, but the strategy of "shifting standards" will work long term, and people will pretty much all end up using slightly bigger wheels within the next decade or so...

It's not a trick I think they'll be able to pull again without huge amount of negative comeback though, fair enough ~30 odd yeas of 26" and they've only just decided 650b is a "better standard"...

But lets be clear, Do it again and it's wee and bombers for the whole cycle industry (and probably a kittens head in each of their beds)...

Personally I'm wringing all the use I can get from my 26" wheeled bikes, but I will eventually have to adopt the prevailing standard, I shall not grumble when that time comes, TBF its only a bloody wheel...

The BTR guys did the 650b Pinner because people pretty much demanded it, not because they necessarily thought it was better, the Pinner was originally 26in only, but so many people made noises about being more interested if it was 650b that they sorted a 650b version [b]as well*[/b].

Whether or not it is better, is not the issue, it was originally a 26er and it very much looks like the punters steered them towards offering 650b, whether that's due to said punters genuinely believing in 650b, or being hooked by the BS and now too scared to buy a 26 is another matter!

*something the bigger manufacturers are not doing, and the source of most of the grumbles, it's not that people don't like 650b, it's that they are grumpy the option of 26 is being removed so quickly and with questionable reasoning behind it.

At the end of the day parts for your 26er will be available, probably for as long as your frame will last anyway, so it's no biggie.

It's only the serial upgraders and meddlers that are going to be affected really, and bikes are a bizarre anomaly really, a sport where for the most part, different parts from different manufactures are freely interchangeable. There's always been the odd company trying to be more integrated (Cannondale, Klein etc.) and you see it happening more and more now shocks and parts become tuned to the specific bike, and some parts integral and proprietary, I think this is where we are headed in the long run, more integration, more proprietary formats, especially at the top end and at some point your wheels might be the only things you can swap between bikes! Axle standards and widths permitting of course 😉

full suss was an obvious and massive benefit

Was it? Early FS bikes were pretty shit, and even now they're not exactly ubiquitous. Bit like any of the wheel sizes taken discretely.

darkcyan - Member

I noticed Spec have released a couple of models as well - looks like it's hear to stay.

For 2015 Specialized have dropped 26" bikes completely above the entry level Hardrock hardtail, with the exception of a couple of their DH bikes which will be available 26" & 650B, and their fat bike.

650B might be late to the party and unwelcome in some quarters but it's here to stay.

ok I give in - it's probably not a dead standard.

Apologies to any kittens that may have been harmed as a result of my rash statement.

what is this kitten thing anyway?

what is this kitten thing anyway?

Every time someone starts a wheel size thread, a kitten dies.

darkcyan - Member

ok I give in - it's probably not a dead standard.

Splitter!
🙂

Was it? Early FS bikes were pretty shit, and even now they're not exactly ubiquitous in the UK.

Fify.

The OP knows at least 2 650b riders on a Thursday night at Stanmer anyway - so his powers of observation pretty hopeless anyway ;)) !!!

@JCL

They're not though anywhere, look at XC racing, still plenty of hardtails. The Europeans still love their old school hardtails too - long stems and narrow bars.

I'm going to get some serious stick on Thursdays 🙁

was browsing at giant bikes and picked up a giant catalogue in a newish bikeshop, which list the pros and cons. Something like 6 small/medium disadvantages iirc over 26 inch.. then one largeish advantage considerably more contact area in theory...iirc mmmmm 🙄 At least their honest I guess. Deffo not as straight cut though as we are being led to believe imho. Surely 24/26/650b/29 all have a place.

They're not though anywhere, look at XC racing, still plenty of hardtails. The Europeans still love their old school hardtails too - long stems and narrow bars.

Meanwhile in the rest of the world....
Hardtails are still there for XC racing, apart from that above entry level they are not that common. Again LBS have about 3 on display all have been there for the last 6 months, all the FS bikes have been sold and rotated at least 3 times. With the exception of XC whippets racing HT's are not that common down here in Oz.
Edit and 12 yo dirt jumpers