[Closed] 4x bikes, latest trend or used for intended purpose?

I think 4x bikes are a good mix between long travel HT and FS as they generally have under 4" at the back and can take forks with a decent amount of travel. They are small and snappy (they need to be) so can be chucked around easily and make (in theory) great blast around the woods bikes. Good on jumps and drops and singletrack where a HT can chuck you around too much and a LT FS just soaks it up. I dont have a 4x bike but would love one.

I experimented with shorter shocks on my old enduro to make it slacker and more fun in the woods and am considering doing the same with my pitch.

because its " the best trail entre bike ever"

But mine isn't a "proper" 4X bike (Blur 4X)

Wot I_Ache said - they rock!! Tried to wean myself off and go longer travel but it's not for me. I just love the way my Tazer zips round corners 😀

I think it's also a development of how people ride. Classic XC in the hills isn't for everyone so the woods razzers and trail centre hackers like a bike that's nimble, a bit of cush but not too much to take away the fun, but doesn't have the geometry of a small XC bike. My riding these days is much more "squeeze in 2 hours in the local woods" which is more like sessioning in a way, you know, looping round to take in a few DH sections so a 4X bike could be just the ticket.

I'm getting excited about the mag reviews...

As I_Ache said. They certainly aren't being used for 4x much, almost everyone still rides hardtails.

Maybe they need a new name/branding...

Hardcore short-travel full-sus?

bleh! Ideas on a postcard.

My twopenceworth. I think there is a real market (certainly in the UK) for short travel, slack, burly bikes which can still be pedalled all day. We seem to do well at the 'hardcore hardtail', so why not a similar themed 4" travel full-suss?

I'd love something strong enough to jump, but slack and stable enough for mini DH, long enough in the top tube and seatpost (i.e. continous) to sit and pedal but with only 4" of travel. The Blur 4X and the Prophet (ok its a bit more than 4" travel) were close, but no longer exist...

There are loads of 6" options, but not many 4" ones, particularly not for those of us who are on the lanky side.

transition bottle rocket springs to mind as that type of bike, 5 at the back and pretty much anything up front, i think my next bike will be that sort of bike too.

Bottle Rocket quite heavy at nearly 8lb without the shock though?

I thought hardcore 4" full suss was the latest big thing in bike design?

i put up a post on this last week, I think that for us shorties it would make a very capable all day bike as well but they dont seem to make an equivalent for the taller people yet! I have a tracer but would like a short travel full susser, mamadirt put a pic of her new tazer last week and I am seriously thinking of that type of thing for myself. Mamadirt, lets see that bike again.

OK, name one example of a strong (jump strong) 4" travel bike with at least a 23.5" top tube, 17" continuous seat tube, a head angle slacker than 67.5 degrees (without running overly long forks), capable of running a front mech which could be built to around 32lbs.

4X full-sussers are ace.

They do need a new "genre name" though! 🙂

Don't Orange make one?

For me it's because 6"+ is far too much travel for the bike to ride how I like (I used to downhill on a hardtail with 4" up front and ride a lot of BMX), but most 4" frames are lightweight XC machines and not strong enough for taking a thrashing and a few crashes, this seems the perfect solution for me, like a mini-dh set up!

Don't Orange make one?

What, the ST4? Wouldn't fancy getting too much air on one of those. Or do you mean the Blood, but you do need to run a 6" fork to make the geo work, but yeah, it's close.

OK, name one example of a strong (jump strong) 4" travel bike with at least a 23.5" top tube, 17" continuous seat tube, a head angle slacker than 67.5 degrees (without running overly long forks), capable of running a front mech which could be built to around 32lbs.

The Chumba XCL with the new swing link is similar to what you describe.

i just built mine today. i rode one last weekend, loved it, made me smile so i thought.... why not.

does it really matter what you use it for?

oh and its well sweet.

I would like something along these lines but there isn't a lot out there if you're 6 foot plus. There are plenty of hardtails around with slack head angles and steep seat angles. Dirt have done a few reviews of different bikes for this kind of use, they beefed up a Rush and ran a Roscoe with loads of sag on the rear.

Si wrote "The Chumba XCL with the new swing link is similar to what you describe"

Si what is the new swing link?

Does anyone here know where I can get the rush review from dirt?

Mamadirt, lets see that bike again.

Oh, go on then 😉

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yzwcym&=1&nostamp=1&quality=70 [/img]

OK, name one example of a strong (jump strong) 4" travel bike with at least a 23.5" top tube, 17" continuous seat tube, a head angle slacker than 67.5 degrees (without running overly long forks), capable of running a front mech which could be built to around 32lbs.

Front mech aside - have a look at the Kona Cowan DS - I ran mine with [url= http://mamadirt.fotopic.net/p58910430.html ]100mm Vanillas[/url] and then [url= http://mamadirt.fotopic.net/p58910181.html ]130mm Marz Drop Offs[/url]. There are a few deals on larger sizes around at the mo - have a look [url= http://www.rutlandcycling.com/13784/Kona-Cowan-FS-Frame-2006.html ]here.[/url]

I experimented with shorter shocks on my old enduro to make it slacker and more fun in the woods and am considering doing the same with my pitch.

The bridge between the seatstays will hit the seat tube on your Pitch if you fit a shorter eye-to-eye shock. It comes pretty damn close with the stock shock.

I,V been riding longer than most,had my hardtails and my big travs etc.now ended up on my lovely little morewood ndiza.by far the most fun bike i,v had,sprints up rooty tooty hills like a little hardtail,hell, i,v even "won' the village sign sprint on the little darling ,but has enough cush for lobbing it off drops an the like. well recomended. mind you now i,v seen watsisnames tazer ,maybe time to rummage through the assorted credit cards......

Si what is the new swing link?

There is a new swing link available that will lower the BB by about 1/4 inch and make the HA about 66.5. It is best run with a coil shock due to the leverage, but imo would be a great shortish travel FS for the UK 🙂

i love mine to bits. i like the way its purely chuckable/tweakable yet not harsh like a hardtail.

To the point that i'm going to ditch my hardtail, i just much prefer the control in a full sus.

Pegglet - if you sell the Ndiza let me know, mmm'K?

The Blur 4x isnt a proper 4x but I do feel its ultimate do-it-all frame.

Its one of those frames that as soon as you throw your leg over for the first time, no matter how wrong the fork length etc is, it feels 'right'

i have to say i think the blur 4X is probably the best do it all frame i've riden. Even though, the one i rode was too big for me on paper it still rode mint, instantly confidence inspiring

Proper 4x bikes are hardtails, not that many race on full suspension bikes (UK 4x). A good 4x bike is very responsive to inputs and very easy to manual, this often results in a bike that isn't suitable for other uses. My 4x bike feels pretty dam daft outside of jumps and 4x tracks.

Yes there are exceptions to this but I guarantee you'd not want to ride an average race bike down technical terrain without serious modifications and tyre changes.

The UCI have been doing their hardest to up the anti on world cup tracks to suit fs 4x bikes ( no doubt given their current habit of trousering up to manufacturers needs rather than the riders), however the winningest of riders more often than not stick like glue to their hard tails as they are more than sufficient for 4x. UK 4x scene remains strongly driven by hard tails and it ensures that at grass roots level racing remains a cheap sport unlike the ongoing trend with downhill.

No doubt the bike manufacturers left with a warehouse full of unsold 4x FS bikes will be massaging the media to encourage any stories to create a new market to convert them to cash and there are riders longing to be sucked into the next post enduro hype. Although low they are often rather too long to be an ideal bike for smaller riders. I have though seen many successfully modified for women seeking a more durable mid range fs bike

because they're great 🙂 my old Blur 4X was ace.

perhaps SC will start building something similar again - they were definitely ahead of the game and then pulled out just as this trend was getting going...

Benji Haworth

4X full-sussers are ace.

They do need a new "genre name" though!

Can you imagine? I am sensing a bit of skepticism already but if they weren't based on an existing style of bike/discipline people would be up in arms claiming it was all just a cynical excercise by the bike industry to seperate us from our hard earned cash.

I quite like the look of this.

[img] [/img]

I've tried various demos/hires on some 5" travel trail/XC bikes, orange 5, intense 5.5, comencal meta 5 and didn't really get on with any of them. Something like a so called 4X bike, a punishment taking short travel bike with short chainstays and medium to slackish HA, might be a laugh.

I've no idea where the money might come from to indulge this whim mind.

A good 4x bike is very responsive to inputs and very easy to manual, this often results in a bike that isn't suitable for other uses. My 4x bike feels pretty dam daft outside of jumps and 4x tracks.

agree with solamanda, mine is awesome one proper 4X tracks, DJ type stuff, even some trail centres where you can push to a good descent, and even some street type stuff too, due to its adjustable wheel base, slackness, short travel, and mega hard spring. nice and chuckable easy to manual super fast rolling.

Although, try and ride up anything and it'll kill you before you reach the top unless your a proper diddy person where you can get away with the slack seat angle.

after my recent alps experience i too was left thinking something short and compact like my Alpine bu with more 'give' at the back would be ideal.

i convinced my mate he doesn't need 6" out back to ride what i consider to be normal XC riding. he subsequently shortened the travel on the frame to 4.25" and keeps banging on about how much more 'feel' and 'control' he has.

i like the look of the Liteville 301 in it's shorter chainstay incarnation offering 115mm on the back and upto 160mm on the front. 1850€ for frame-shock only is a bit much though.

Cotic Hemlock

I hope they do bring the Blur4x back but not as a proper 4x - keep it all the same but give it a different name and colours. Say the "Santa Cruz freestyle" (or something better of course)

I'm watching these developments with interest. As has been said; most 4" travel full-suss bikes are XC oriented which means the geometry is wrong and they are too weak for the kind of riding I like to do - hence I spend most of my time riding a big forked hardtail. I do have a 6-7" travel beast bike which is ace for the mountains but overkill for the forest.

Something between the two would be good... if that happens to be called a "4X" then so be it... I don't care what you call it as long as it's fun.

I've got (and love) a Blur 4X. I've demoed a Hemlock in short rocker/Wotan mode. If I hadn't bought the 4X I would have gone for the Cotic. There's definitely something in that kind of set-up that I like.

I wouldn't have a clue what to do on a proper 4X course.

But big forks is not the point. 100mm or 120mm is the idea - light, pointy and easy to pick up and place rather than bash into stuff.

I've got an '04 Kona Dawg which is a lot of fun. The rear travel is 100mm but its quite a burly frame and is intended for more than just XC. I've put a Pike on the front which suits it perfectly 🙂 I think the current Dawg is now 150mm or something so the character has changed somewhat.

am I missing something? aren't 99% of 4X bikes hardtails with less than 100mm forks?

Yes. We're talking about the ones with a wee bit of rear suspension.

short travel and slack head angles.

and for trail riding usually longer forks (e.g. my old (Higgo's current) 4x was best when I had some Fox 36's on the front at 160mm - with 115mm at the back...)

mini DH bikes

in the style of long travel hard tails - but with a bit of suspension if you get what I'm saying!

All the full suss bikes I have owned & kept have been less than 4" of travel, I've had 5 & 6" bikes that I really didn't like for the type of riding I do, which is mainly gay XC.
My current FS is a turner burner which I bought NOS in Jan this year & its fab, but I miss the slack seat angle of my Azonic propulsion which put my weight roughly in line with the rear axle, so chuckable yet burly enough, I tried it with a 5" fork but that was a bit to much really.
It was a tad small for me, so it now resides in the loft with the others, but I might dig it out again some day.
I remember the day I bought one of the original Stiffee's, what follows is a cut'n'paste of what STW said back then (issue 2), oh how I laugh now 😉

Thursday 13 March 2003 @ 00:06:59

Cove Stiffee
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Cove's burly go anywhere bike. The Stiffee.

Price:
Frame only: £450.00
Bike tested: £1599.00
From: On Your Bike
T 0207 378 6669

The Ride
You have to be confident in your bikes' abilities to talk for themselves if you take your colour palette from Tic Tacs, and Cove seem confident, or oblivious enough to send bikes out into the world in hues of lime or tangerine. Look underneath the powdercoat though and you'll find a solid ride that's not happy to be pigeonholed. The Stiffee has the look and feel of a muscle car. It sits there with front high and a squat back end ready to put on the power. The very sloping frame implies flickability, and the enormous 27in risers on our test bike looked like you could easily wrestle the Rockshox Psylos to do your bidding.

Given the name, the burly reputation and the big tubing, we were expecting a beating at the hands of the Stiffee. And the 3in-5in Psylos on the front and big tyre clearance at the back called for some hardcore action. The first few rides were indeed a lesson in damage control. The Stiffee revels in being pushed hard, flicked off lips and down drops showing its North Shore roots. The ride was solid, though we noticed a lot of vibration passed into the rider through the pedals (it didn't get as far as the arse the riding was nearly all out of the saddle).

However, then a strange thing happened. We tried some riding at a slightly less manics pace, still on the same trails (and on the rugged 9feet and Coed Y Brenin ones) and, despite a lap of the Karrimor, with included special 'local' extras, our test rider could still hold a cup of tea and a bun and walk unaided afterwards. It seems our initial test riding had slipped into a stereotype, rather than exploring the ride of the bike. The long seatpin would go some way to giving comfort, as would the ability to run anything up to 2.6in tyres.

But at the end of the day(s) it became clear that the Stiffee is far more versatile than its name suggests it can be a full-on extreme XC bike, yet has enough give for epics. Rev it hard and it'll burn the tyres, yet keep it ticking over and it's mild enough for the teashop run. This is genuinely a bike that grows on you and challenges you to forget your preconceptions about big tubed ally bikes. It's no sofa, but it's not a plywood school chair either...

The bike is readily converted to discs (though you'll want to spec disc hubs if you think you'll be tempted in the future) and even comes with routing for a full rear disc hose, hence the adaptors and zip ties on our rim brake bike. The seatpost isn't one of those 31.6 ones, giving you a wider choice and the option of (heresy?) a suspension post. There really is room for some big meats in the back end, and we can see some gadget-freaks opting for the full disc and big tyres look. We reckon that would spoil the light feel and versatility of the Stiffee as a do-it-all mountain bike. Once laden with jump wheels and discs, it might lose some of that fast response.

Uphill, the Stiffee climbed well, though the stiff back end won't let you stay seated too much on the bumpy stuff. On extreme slopes, there was some wander in the front end and it got very light, but that's a price you pay for having a four inch fork on a hardtail. However, it handles it better than some suspension bikes we've tried.

The Detail
Our bike came from On Your Bike, London Bridge, as a typical custom build (down to the rapid rise rear derailleur) and there's not much we'd look to change on it. Bizarrely, the bars felt a little too wide easily sorted with a hacksaw and the grips were big handfuls of rubber, so we slipped on a slimmer number for an instant feelincrease. The Avid braking department, which gets quite an airing in this issue, was faultless in the 99% dry conditions we rode the bike in.

XT/XTR is good stuff. The cheaper Shimano systems work just as well new, but tend to need a bit more care as they age and we reckon the typical Stiffee customer is likely to thrash the pants off it, so the top shelf spec is a good choice.

Up front are Rockshox' versatile Psylos. Not very light, but stiff and burly. The instant lockout is great for road climbs and fire road sprinting, as is the ability to vary the compression damping on the fly. A long screwdriver can easily adjust the travel from three to five inches the Stiffee is designed for four and you'll get a lot of front end lift if you jack it up to five, mind you, you'll have some fun on the downs.

It's a nimble bike, though not overelegant. It will sweep and swoop through singletrack like a steel hardtail up to a certain point, at which it appears to get bored and will urge you to get a little more off piste and rowdy. After all, the fork can handle it, so why concentrate on the perfect line?

The Conclusion
The Stiffee is certainly a striking bike in terms of its look, feel and that lime paint job. It seems to be an object of lust for many readers in our Forum too, and quite deservedly so. The ride seems dependent on the speed and aggression of the rider on it. Ride it fast and hard and it becomes a fast and hard bike. Take it steady and it too seems to steady out a bit. It's hard to think who wouldn't like the ride. Those who've been full suspension converts for years won't like it, and all-day epic riders might not get on with it, though we think many will be surprised. Steel purists won't like it aesthetically, though they might like the firm, nimble ride. It's even quite hard to fault the price (of the frame, the built-up bike seems a bit steep) after all, it's a Canadian aluminium frame and it's half the price of a Pace.

If you think you might like it, you probably will. And we can't do anything to stop you. The Stiffee is a surprisingly addictive ride that'll suit a lot of riders looking for something a little different.

Technical gubbins
Fork: Rockshox Psylo SL
Frame: Cove T62 aluminium
Drive Train: Race Face/XTR
Brakes: Avid Speed Dial/Single Digit 7
Finishing kit: Easton EA50
Saddle: Fizik Nisene
Wheel set: LX/Mavic 517
Tyres: Conti Explorer Pro
Weight: Fine
Persona: A Butch Queen (burly but fluoro)

Some pics to help you visualise 😉

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ybshqh&outx=600&quality=70 [/img]

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yqm8zy&outx=600&quality=70 [/img]

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ywotew&outx=600&quality=70 [/img]

This is a great post

[b]flowmtbguy[/b] said... my old (Higgo's current) 4x was best when I had some Fox 36's on the front at 160mm - with 115mm at the back...)

It's pretty damn good with a 55 on it - wound down to ~140mm a lot of the time (there are no ski lifts in the Peaks) and out to 160mm when I point it down something fun.

And here's an old pic of it (Pikes at the time ) ...

[img] [/img]

flowmtbguy - like this, you mean?

[img] [/img]

I built this up a while ago from mainly old DH parts I had kicking around with the intention of using it as a mini DH bike that's easier to push (or even ride) up local DH tracks but just as fast as my DH bike down... Let's just say I wasn't dissapointed (it's actually faster and a lot less effort on many DH sections than my DH race bikes)

Travel = 115mm rear coil sprung pushed Fox Vanilla R, 140mm fixed Pike SL

Geometry

65deg HA, 12.6" BB, 16.5" CS, 43.75 WB,

Weight ~37lb

I've had my Blur 4X for about 3 years now. Although on occasion, it does actually get used to race a bit of 4X!

However, I didn't buy it for that purpose. My riding is mainly gravity orientated, I endure the ups to enjoy the alongs and the downs. I would rather have a bike that is capable of climbing at an 'ok' level and rips on the other bits, rather than the other way round.

Its slack & low, which basically translates into a riot to ride on the fun stuff. Midly ironic that its not actually that great for 4X! Ha.

Best bike i've ever owned. If I could only have one bike, this would be it, not even questionable.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Higgo, where is that pic from, that descent looks amazing

Stanage.

Here's another pic from the same day....

[img] [/img]

There are two ways down Stanage, both fun in their own way, the 'causeway' and the 'plantation'. On the day I was leading (probably from the back as normal) a ride that was going to finish down the causeway. Personally I prefer the plantation route so I got there early and rode/pushed up a couple of times so I could enjoy the ride down. The pics are from that morning.

My Prophet in short travel mode (120mm rear, 130mm front), now back to the full 140mm both ends and just as good:
[img] [/img]

I built a Meta 4x for razzing and trail centres. So far so good. it's got a air pikes that I run at 110mm, chain device with a 34 ring and an uppy downy seat post, to add to the 'flow'. It weighs in at just over 32lb and when those new fox 831's come out it will lose another pound in weight. I think this style of bike is a 2 hour (ride) special, that will climb ok and descend ace, making for a fun ride. That's what it's all about, innit?

ST bike reviews used to be a lot more thorough didn't they?

the original giant trance 4.2 rear and with 140 mm pikes pretty impressive

4x bikes are built for pumping and styling around a formed course that's what they do well, no need for long forks or rear suspension...

this is the bike Joost Wichman just picked up to ride at the 4x Worlds in Australia.
[img] [/img]

hardly the kind of bike geometry that would appeal to most trail centre riders seeking a burly substitute to an xc bike be it full sus or hard tail, no more so than to expect a foreplay would make you want to leave a stiffee in the garage next time you go to a trail centre.

The only persons likely to benefit from hyping the trail prowess's of full sus 4x bike in my view most likely to be those who make them and probably have a warehouse full of unsold bike they need to shift either because their geometry is not suitable for your average serious 4x rider or no matter how rocky Saxena builds worlds courses the likes of Wichman will turn up on a hard tail running 100mm and Larson TT's

. . . unless you're 5'2" and want a full-sus bike that'll feel confidence inspiring on the DH's and still be able to ride back to the top without (quote from a previous review of the SC Bullit) 'seeing the white light and Jesus' 😉 . Trust me, I have the bank balance to prove it 😐

Seen the new Cove Hooker?

[img] [/img]

😀

shameless picture of mine

[IMG] [/IMG]

i do like that giant hardtail though.

Max headset - what a pile of horse crap. People can ride what they like where they like if it suits what they're doing. You're just way too into this all marketing is evil rubbish, but all marketers do usually is follow the trends, not set them. A couple of the blokes at Dirt Mag use 4X bikes as their trail bikes - are you gonna tell them they're not allowed to do that cos they should be for "pumping and styling around a formed course"?

Max H did you post without reading the thread? i thought the whole point of this thread was that bikes marketed as "full suspension 4X" make good UK trail bikes, not that they might not actually be brilliant 4X bikes? Several people have even suggested they are re-named as they are more versatile than the name "4X" suggests. You sound like someone "into" 4X which might have coloured your response, but I think youve missed the point of the previous ~60 posts.

I've wanted / thought about something like this for a while. Seemed a natural choice from LT HTs. Has nothing to do with wanting or even being interested in riding 4X 8-P

Always liked the idea of a Transition Preston (when it first came out with 4 or 5" rockers at the back and up to (IIRC) 6" front. Then they changed it (and the original UK guy was dogy as ...). Also really liked the idea of the original Hemlock with a similar 4"/6" option (not that 6" is a must, but the idea of a little bit of rear and bigger up front "makes sense" to me). But they changed it (and the Mk1s had a few issues, apparently).

Not about riding a "4X" bike, just about someone who likes LT HTs wanting a bit more skill compensation without having to run loads of travel at the rear. My interest is more about a good quality rear travel, all day / woods type of bike (basically I can use it all the time, just like LT HTs). Pipedream probably.

Until something really interesting comes along I'll stick to my Ti fetish 😉

IIRC the travel increase on the Mk2 Hemlock was mostly a change of necessity "forced" on Si, rather than something he planned. I could be wrong ;-/

went down the BMX track at the weekend

Rigid and 74.5 HA's are the way foreward! May take it to Cannock and/or Swinley at some point just to annoy the locals 🙂

Only downside is it only has one brake, and with the small wheels means it's about as effective as turning arround and farting over the bars.

Still tempted though 🙂

Max - that's an STP isn't it?
I just happen to ride an STP for 90% of my riding and that includes traditional XC and trail centre use. it's perfect for trail centres (for me) and a lot more fun on a long XC loop than a boring old XC bike (did a 4hr XC ride with an hour or so of DH on it yesterday, if I'd have taken an XC bike I couldn't have ridden the DH sections to their full) and me riding a 4X (even though it isn't) bike has **** all to do with marketing trends, I've ridden little 100mm travel hardtails as my main bike for almost 15yrs now.
Oh.. and an STP is a good 4X bike but that's not what it was designed for.. the Atherton's rode them for 4X when they were on Giant but I believe the input for the frame design came from jeff lenosky (*correct me if I'm wrong)

S = Street
T + Trail
P + Park

[img] [/img]

While we're at it, gives me an excuse to post a picture of my "4X" bike. (Dont race it, but it was built as one) Loads of fun, and very usable, even managed out local XC loop on it last night. Wouldnt want to do a few hours on it, but great for short blasts, up to a couple of hours.
Have always hankered after a blur 4X though...
[img] [/img]

A friend had an old Kona Dawg (the 100mm travel one) with some Lyriks on it. I was convinced it would tear the headtube off but it seems to hold up well and he wasn't scared of doing DH courses on it.

I have a Dialled Bikes Holeshot (Mike's 4X frame) for pump track and jumps (or trying to .... ). It's great (old 4" vanillas on the front). Have ridden it around bits of Stainburn as well.

Do I need a separate bike for this - of course not. Is it great - yes 🙂

The bridge between the seatstays will hit the seat tube on your Pitch if you fit a shorter eye-to-eye shock. It comes pretty damn close with the stock shock.

I have one of these.

It's a riot to ride on freeridey places, where I endure the ups for the downs. Low bb slackish ha and short backend. I have added a dual chainring for climbing as it as originally single only. It is built for strength for out and out xc and a faster paced rides it is not ideal. But for blasting and having a whole heap of fun ( with jumps etc thrown in) it is superb! There;'s no reason why I couldn't remove the dh bars and cranks etc and run it a whole lot lighter.Only minus is the back is harsh as it is very stiff alloy but i just let the front end do the work

[img] [/img]

GTs look shit.