I know we have been down this route before but I have finally got to the stage of going and buying before VAT goes on [although I appreciate that won't make that much difference}.
I really can't make my mind up, does anybody have a definitive opinon that will swing it? I don't have the extra to go carbon so it's a straight fight between £165 456 and £199 Pig. The only, highly subjective, feeling I have is that 456s look better than Pigs but that might be down to paint.
Must be decided this week!
456 gets my 'vote'
Think they look better - nice colour options (not keen on raw)
More versatile ?
they're basically the same.
but, the pig has a slacker head angle, and that was the deal clincher for me.
very happy i am too.
does this help?
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As a 456 owner, I'd say something other than a 456 unless you like heavy, flexy bikes with ugly seat stays.
As a 456 owner, I'd say something other than a 456 unless you like heavy, flexy bikes with ugly seat stays.
Flexy? Are you on the same planet as everyone else?
they're basically the same.but, the pig has a slacker head angle
Does the slacker head angle make any difference to the handling or is it just a cosmetic thing?
Head angle is pretty much the defining character of how a bike feels IMO. I've got an old, steep angled bike, a pretty slack FS bike and 2 somewhere in the middle. As you'd expect the steep one climbs well and feels lively and the slack one is far better and more confident at speed downhill, but noticeably slower to respond on the flat 🙂
BadlyWiredDog - MemberDoes the slacker head angle make any difference to the handling ... ?
lots.
yes i've ridden a 456, and i own a standard inbred.
the steeper head angle on the inbred/456 means i have to hang off the back on steep descents, to keep my weight between the two wheels.
the slacker head angle on the Ragley means i can maintain a more 'normal' riding position on steep descents. making it all a bit easier.
the Ragley head angles are completely normal if you compare them to full-suspension bikes, but for reasons that i don't understand it seems hardtails usually have old-school-steep head angles.
consider an inbred, with a 70 degree head angle, ride it down a steep slope, the forks will compress another inch or so, you now have a bike with a 71 degree head angle, and a really interesting weight distribution...
As a 456 owner, I'd say something other than a 456 unless you like heavy, flexy bikes with ugly seat stays.
Crikey! As a Steel 456 (former) owner and a Ti 456 owner I'd say the following:
Ugly stays is a somewhat subjective statement - Dekerf do something similar that people seem to fawn over.
Heavy - Yes, theres no getting away from it that the 456 is not a light frame. However, in comparison to quite a few of the newest CEN compliant steel frames intended for similar riding, its actually fairly light/midweight.
Flexy is not something you can accuse a 456 of, unless you're comparing it to one of those ridiculously overbuilt DJ things.
ive owned both and found the pig goes up and down far better than a 456 but a 456 is more at home on all day rides. so it depends on your planned use i guess
If there's any left I can recommend the carbon 456 at £399......
🙂
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5282/5285932767_692dd020e8_b.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/5285932767/ ]IMG_0859[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr
the Ragley head angles are completely normal if you compare them to full-suspension bikes
Really?
Depends on the bike I'd guess, BWD. My Pitch is pretty darn slack, but my old FSR was nowhere near it... 🙂
my blue pig with a sektor u turn is the best of both worlds. 150mm makes it a slack beast that loves being hammered down rocky trails (also goes well uphill, steep seat tube). crank down the u turn for the uphills and its just silly. if you can turn the pedals, the bike will get up the hill, the rest is down to you.
i havent noticed the weight being a disadvantage either.
BadlyWiredDog - MemberReally?
yes.
67.5degrees.
doesn't sound completely mental does it?
(if you don't ride down many steep trails then a 'normal' 456 would be ideal)
(and i love the look of the 456 carbon)
To just answer the origional question..
Theres not much difference between the two. So I'd go for the 456 purely as its a bit cheaper.
put the saving towards better components
Do people not put any value in powdercoated finish? Frame features to prevent and protect against chainsuck, offering big mudclearance? Bolt on guides so you don't need zip ties or to split your cables? Seat angles that put taller riders in the right place? Self apply decal sets?
If people don't want that stuff, well, we could make 'em a lot cheaper.
Bit you know what... I kind of like that stuff, and that's why we do.
On one rock. No question. But the Pig is a bit different.
On one rock. No question. But the Pig is a bit different
kind words there Brant but you did design both and all I can say is
"thank you"
I realy liked my inbred but the 456 is ace
The Pig is better in lots of small ways, especially for taller people. I've had no chainsuck all winter, the clip-on guides are great. I'd say its well worth the extra dough.
brant - MemberDo people not put any value in ... Seat angles that put taller riders in the right place?
this [i]is[/i] bloody brilliant.
thankyou Brant.
while we are at it the bolt on cable guides are great esp as i was able to run my rear brake on the down tube allowing for a cable guide for my dropper post 😉 shame i cant ride for toffee tho im getting better lol
now would I swap my 456 for a blue pig
er thats a possable maybe, but I could easily be tempted
.Theres not much difference between the two
They are indeed both hardtails 😉
So I'd go for the 456 purely as its a bit cheaper.put the saving towards better components
Personally I don't reckon you'll notice a tangible improvement by spending the £34 difference on better components. If it were me I'd be spending it on the more advanced and more capable frame.
to compare the two looks/size wise here are my two 16" ones, the evolution of shedfire if you like 😉
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Do people not put any value in powdercoated finish? Frame features to prevent and protect against chainsuck, offering big mudclearance? Bolt on guides so you don't need zip ties or to split your cables? Seat angles that put taller riders in the right place? Self apply decal sets?
Well, it was you that caused the On One chainsuck problem that exists on certain frames, so I wouldn't boast about that too much if I were you, and to be honest I think the Ragley bolt on cable guides are poor. Self apply decals are purely a money saving ploy. Personally I'd prefer them under the laquer but if the frames cheap enough I'll live with it. (and get my own made as above)
Sorry, but personally I wouldn't even consider a Ragley
[s]then sod off[/s] cheer up you grumpy bugger.
X
456 also gets the vote! I also know someone who might have a mint 16" TI 456 frame to move on.
Well, it was you that caused the On One chainsuck problem that exists on certain frames, so I wouldn't boast about that too much if I were you, and to be honest I think the Ragley bolt on cable guides are poor. Self apply decals are purely a money saving ploy. Personally I'd prefer them under the laquer but if the frames cheap enough I'll live with it. (and get my own made as above)
He was boasting about fixing the chainsuck problem, on Ragleys.
What is "poor" about the cable guides?
You bought a cheap destickered bike and came up with your own graphics but you think its a negative when Ragley do it?
I'd go for the Blue Pig personally. (Actually I'd go for a second hand Cove Handjob which is what I went for buy that's another thread).
Dunno what yout frok situation is but if you went for an Mmmbop, you could take advantage of the very cheap forks with 1.5" steerers knocking about at the mo.
I can imagine brant crying into a bottle of blue label as we speak peter 😉
I'm sure he'll get over it, if you don't like em, don't buy em.
I've yet to ride a Blue Pig (hopefully soon to be remedied) but it is along the same lines as a 456 so I'd say..................
NONE OF THE ABOVE
Go for a Sanderson Blitz
Seriously better than a 456
If you have to go Pig/456...get a size smaller than you think you need and don't cut the steerer short until you are absolutely sure you are happy with it
I missed the chainsuck comment.
Is that a plea of guilty?
It used to be the On One party line that owners were guilty of faulty gear changing....in my case it was strange the rider never had faulty gear changing for the twenty years prior to their owning a 456.
I enjoyed mine tho....good at covering ground and getting across sketchy stuff.........good at climbing......never brilliant at descending.
The Blitz is a little heavier than my pre-CEN 456, and a little pricier but way better.
I struggled with the same conundrum earlier in the year. After pondering what it was I wanted the bike for (muck about in the woods, 2hr trail centre bashes) I went with the Ragley. Not sure about the colour but it is fun. I think the slack head angle reassures me after 10 hrs riding full sus bikes with 66 -69 degree front ends.
Going down is fun, going up is only worth it for the down.
If that statement gets on your nerves buy the on-one.
The Blitz is a little heavier than my pre-CEN 456,
Really? Says it's 4.6lb. That's light. That's Cotic Soul type light.
http://sanderson-cycles.com/content/sanderson-blitz
Looks ace. And 67deg head angle at sag is my type of head angle. Couple of degrees slacker than the 456.
Nice frame.
456 gets my vote 8)
My 18" Blitz weighed 5.8lbs, and built up with sturdy kit it weighes 29.3lbs.
I saw that 4.6lbs on their webpage aswell, and I think it goes on to say the Blitz is made of Reynolds 853, which is also untrue. I think they have another webpage out there that gives the true facts/figures and when I spoke to them about it, prior to buying, they were quoting near 6lbs for frame weight.
Blitz is quoted as 5.9lb on merlin...
Well i always thought chain suck was down to worn drivetrain,mud,
it is.
chainsuck itself isn't the problem, it becomes a problem on some frames - when there's exactly the wrong amount of clearance*.
(*just enough clearance between the chainring and chainstay to let the 'sucked' chain in, but in a jammy kind of way)
lots of clearance = not a problem.
very tight = not a problem.
it's a bit like Goldilocks's porridge...
"when there's exactly the wrong amount of clearance."
ie. none! I had to attack mine with a hammer 🙂
Aaargh! I still can't make my mind up. AS Tolkein said,' Go not to the Elves [or the ST Forum] for advice as they say both yes and no.'
If we listen to Brant I should obviously go with the Pig but does it go up as well as it goes down? Whatever I buy will be used for all day trail riding in the Peaks, my backyard, as well as away days to Dales, lakes and NYM with less frequent trail centre visits. I think I'm leaning Pigward.
FOG the pig climbs spot on mate.perfect for the Peaks that bike thats what i use over there,
Having owned both if you want my twopenneth I would say that the Pig is better on steep downs, they are about the same on climbs but the 456 is better on undulating/countouring terrain. I have no idea why this is but it's just the feeling that riding them back to back left me with. Maybe somehow who understands frame geometry can explain. They were both 18" frames with 140mm forks.
In summary it felt like the Pig only really came alive when you threw it (and yourself) down a steep hill. And I'm far too much of a mincer to do that very often.
Having owned both if you want my twopenneth I would say that the Pig is better on steep downs, they are about the same on climbs but the 456 is better on undulating/countouring terrain. I have no idea why this is but it's just the feeling that riding them back to back left me with. Maybe somehow who understands frame geometry can explain. They were both 18" frames with 140mm forks.In summary it felt like the Pig only really came alive when you threw it (and yourself) down a steep hill. And I'm far too much of a mincer to do that very often.
I think this is a very fair summing up.
Not ridden a Blue Pig, but had a 456 and now have a mmmbop.
The mmmbop climbs way better than the 456, I never touch the U-turn anymore, I just leave the Pikes at 140mm all the time. The 456 was wheelytastic on steep climbs.
The mmmbop is great on steep downs too as you'd expect. For the riding I do it's fantastic and I can't see me changing it for a while. Can't stand the name though.
is the 456 seat angle the same?
is the 456 seat angle the same?
No.
I find the pig also climbs better as I seem to be position much more over the cranks rather than behind them
So they're different then,as someone stated earlier they're pretty much same.
differnet head angle and seat angle,for me its this what makes this frame.no chopper feeling to the Pig like all the other 140mm + hardtails, as your over the front more which helps on super steep climbs,
billyboy, you say you need a smaller size with a Ragley. I assumed I would need medium/18" like my other bikes. At 5'10" could I get away with a 16"?
Not 'get away'. I'd advise it. 'Northwind' wouldn't, though he has long legs.
Cheers for that, I think I am finslly seeing the light!
the 456 is better on undulating/countouring terrain. I have no idea why this is but it's just the feeling that riding them back to back left me with. Maybe somehow who understands frame geometry can explain.
I run a Pig with 150mm Sektors on it, I'd say it's ace going down and ace going up, but distinctly surly and indifferent on meandering, flattish terrain. Some of that's weight - it's not a light bike - but I wonder if the stability from the slack head angle which is really reassuring on steep descents just makes it feel a bit unresponsive on the flat, the opposite to a steep and twitchy race set-up?
If I lived somewhere flat I'd:
1. Move.
2. Not buy a Blue Pig/Mmmm Bop/Ragley Ti for my local riding.
But that's just my opinion. Oh, and if it helps anyone, I'm five nine and a half or so and have a 16" Blue Pig, wouldn't want to go any bigger.
I havent ridden a 456 for ages and only briefly then anyway, but I'd say it's more of an all-rounder, but less bolted-on stable on descents. I've ridden six or seven hour trail rides in the Peak on the Pig, with ice tyres too, and it's fine for that, though given that the frame weighs, what, 5.5lb, it doesn't build light and works best with tough-ish bits on anyway.
As far as the practical UK benefits of the Ragley frames go, I dunno, maybe the unusual geometry has tended to overshadow the rest of the package, but I do really like the cable and hose guides, the finish seems pretty good and I haven't even thought about chain suck on it. Nice to be able to squeeze biggish tyres in too.
If we listen to Brant I should obviously go with the Pig but does it go up as well as it goes down?
Basically, yes. It climbs like a steamroller. If you can keep turning the pedals, it'll chunder over pretty much anything in its path. Seat angle keeps your weight on the front, low front end helps too.
Don't 18 Bikes have a demo Pig or am I just imagining that? You're welcome to a quick go on mine if you're somewhere in the Peak some time.
yep think 18 do have demo.demo mine in hudds if your about,
ridden mine all over the place looks tatty and could do with a respray,been abused but thats what i wanted it for 🙂
im 5ft11 and have an 18",i pondered alot over the size too,
As far as the practical UK benefits of the Ragley frames go, I dunno
Hence the advent of the Ragley Piglet I guess, which is probably a fairer bike for like-with-like comparison against the 456.
EDIT: Although I hear that there is some pretty tech and steep terrain knocking about in the UK 😉
for those of you still unsure, i'm an idiot.
have any of the other ragley riders out there noticed how a really big rear tyre rubs on the front mech when you're in granny gear?
if not, what front mech are you using?
(i'm using a 2.4" maxxis advantage, which is bloody massive, i'm a little surprised it fits in the frame, there's loads of clearance, just not with the front mech...)
I use one of those SLX diddy front mechs with 2+bash.
Ace.
thanks!
for those of you who haven't seen one, a 2.4" advantage is an hilarious tyre, it's a bit like one of those daft pugsley things.
but it's very light, fairly grippy, and makes for a very comfy ride if you use it on the back of a hardtail.
i foresee a trip to my lfbs in my near future...
for those of you who haven't seen one, a 2.4" advantage is an hilarious tyre, it's a bit like one of those daft pugsley things.
Hmmm... I'm running a 2.5 Minion DHF on the front of the Pig, but was out with a mate yesterday with a TD1, but with a Pugsley fork and tyre fitted. It was properly monstrous, made the Minion look like a skinny mud tyre in comparison. Then again, it didn't seem to work very well on puddles with ice at the bottom of them...