[Closed] 11-speed Shimano Alfine

The Spinal Tap of gearing.

Awesome!

Will make sure I'm at the front of the queue when that comes out...

I'll fight yer for the first one!!

Well if that's the case...

I'll just let you buy it first, ride 50 whole miles on it then decide you don't like it, and sell it on to me at a loss... 😉

Damn you, you may well have a plan there... 😉

(Oh, and it's not that I didn't like it; I just didn't use it, which doesn't bode well for this new hub!)

Eagerly awaiting an update of your mightily brilliant IGH spreadsheet 😀

Damn you, you may well have a plan there...

LOL. In fairness the prospect of one with 11 gears and 409% gearing range for no extra weight, I'd forgo the wait for the few quid I think... That said, with gearing I've got on mine at the moment I've not ridden anything yet where I've either screamed for an easier gear, or longed for a taller one. Though I think summer trails and Welsh Mountains might have me longing for both...

Eagerly awaiting an update of your mightily brilliant IGH spreadsheet

Erm... Having asked everyone for feedback, and received just about none other than "seems fine", progress kind of stopped at v8 I think... I couldn't see any logical progressions forward... Though if you want to suggest any improvements, please fire away and I'll give it a go... Do it soon though, may be gainfully employed again sooner than later!

Oh I don't think it needs any improving, it's very, very useful as-is, but I think you should get the drop on everyone and add Nigel Tufnel's hub to it ASAP!

Good luck with gaining gainful employment gainfully 🙂

i'll be investing my hard earned pennies i dont have a problem with the bottom end on my current alfine whyte preston ,, but would like a bit more top end ,, have a bit of a time spinnning on the road sections that link our trails in the chilterns

but going from 300% to about 400% with and extra 3 gears will leave the gaps between the gears about the same,, i would like a slightly bigger range but with smaller gaps between gears,

I’ll probably get one…will have to see what else is coming out this year before saying for sure.

Wonder what we will see the old version drop in price to?

MB and Banana, neither of you will be first in the queue 😉

Interesting - I can't say that the gear spread for my Alfine - riding through the mud through the winter - for me requires a couple more gears. If they have improved the hub in other ways (smoother/easier servicing etc...) then I'd be interested.

Tonyg have you actually read the translated page?

The interior has also been completely redesigned: a gear box for now with oil lubrication system provides compared to the old grease-smeared, straight toothed gears for silky-smooth running, quiet and smooth gear changes and a further increase in life span.

Sounds great. I'll be really tempted to get one

I think it sounds great. I'm a Rohloff owner and I think I'd struggle with the current Alfine's spread to do the kind of riding I do as the gear range would be restrictive. Maybe struggle isn't the right word, but I'd find it annoying not being able to pedal downhill on the road if I had the gears to ride steep uphills offroad for example. The new Alfine is getting further towards a Rohloff hub in terms of gear spread, and performance (by the sounds of it), for a much lower price ~ £300 vs £1100.

i'm still waiting for the 3-speed version...

(up steep hills / up gentle hills / quick along the flats)

Sounds like it weighs the same as a paving slab.

http://road.cc/content/news/13981-shimano-alfine-11-speed-hub-car-park-test

typical, i've literally just received an 8spd alfine wheel today!

that's more like it, getting closer to 3x9 and only 260 quid, got to be worth a serious look.

a couple of [s]questions[/s] thoughts though

1. why don't they stop pissing about and meet rohloff head on on spread, and walk them on price (actually i'll answer that myself.. that'd probably spell the end to derailleurs, cassettes and half the shifters)

2. i'm not bothered about going flat out on the road so can an alfine set up be geared so that the lowest ratio is equivalent to the lowest in a 3x9?

The road.cc article suggests it'll cost more like 350 quid.

Irrespective it really does sound good.

And by my calcs it's the equivalent of 22x32 to 44xbetween 15 and 16t sprocket or a 36 and a 13 sprocket.

So you'll be missing one or maybe two of the very top gears that are usefull offroad (36x11 is all you need)

I'm not bothered about going flat out on the road so can an alfine set up be geared so that the lowest ratio is equivalent to the lowest in a 3x9?

Yeah, you can still spec whatever size chainring, and there's a choice of hub sprocket sizes to choose from, with the Alfine 8 anyway.

if you're right clubber then in the words of max and paddy "that'll dink dank do for me"

Why won't they make it so it can be centrally mounted and then we could finally get rid of the bloody mechs! Come on Shimano, you're so close!

that's a good idea, all the weight in the centre, no cables to disconnect to remove the wheel, you could probably run 1:1 chain ring, it'd look nice and clean, [s]the singlespeeders would be coming in their pants![/s]

EDIT: thought i better cross that out before i get called a gobshite again!

My give-a-shit-ometer is barely registering...

Just for balance like, before you all have an accident in your trousers...

Stu McGroo - Member
...[s]the singlespeeders would be coming in their pants![/s]

Aye, 11 times 🙂

frame mounted alfine isnt that a gboxxx?

Yeah, except cheaper, made by shimano (ie something that could be adopted by most of the industry) and cheaper. Did I mention it would be cheaper?

come on mansonsoul what's your point?

[url= http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/SID=sifdaa50a324a07787e27961f2f63d5a/index.php?screen=sh.detail&tnid=2651 ]v boxxxxx[/url] dam heavy

if you can get 11 ratios in an alfine at 1.6kg it would seem that suntour need to try harder, it looks a bit of a monster too, i was thinking more alfine/rohloff size and built into the bb.

The oil bath should be a great improvement. I've got a Rohloff and servicing is a really simple job. Combine it with a belt drive and your looking at a drive chain weight very similar to a conventional set up. I think this will push a lot more people into trying the hub option. If this had been around 4 years ago when I bought the Rohloff I might have gone for this as at the time I didn't know whether or not I'd get on with hub gearing. In the end it was Thorn's 100 day trial period that convinced me to give it a try.

When did Shimano release Alfine 8? About 3ish years ago now? And Nexus was what 5/6 years before that?

So following the curve to it’s logical next point, it’s maybe 4 years till shimano release their ~500% ~14ish speed “Rohloff beater”…

Whichever “Big S” can get an affordable, durable Hub gear to market first with an equivalent range to a Triple X 11-32 Drivetrain will obviously steal the market, the mech won’t die overnight, legacy spares is a big market and weight weenies/Grumpy old giffers will take a long time to adopt…

Shimano are very close with this product now, bish on a Composite shell, and spanglier shifter and the letters XT (and possibly an R) and they would no doubt shift a crap load overnight…

SRAM have I think missed the masses with “Hammeredshit” Costs a small fortune has no real weight advantage, requires more fancy mounting features on the frame, and other than being a touch quicker shifting than a traditional mech (how fast do you need your front mech to change?) has very few advantages in the real world…

Why cant they just do it properly? Define a new BB size, or take the old ammerican BMX/MTB one, or even the EBB sixe, and build it into the BB.

Rode a rolhoff once, felt like I was dragging a 1.6kg rock arround with me over the rear wheel (which is what it was).

I'd accept a weight penalty at the BB, but not that far back. Either make it weigh the same as a conventional hub and cassette or shift the weight somewhere more central.

Belt drive and a carbon shell, and it's weight competitive with XT. Not long to wait for that I think.

thisisnotaspoon - Member
Why cant they just do it properly? Define a new BB size, or take the old ammerican BMX/MTB one, or even the EBB sixe, and build it into the BB.

Rode a rolhoff once, felt like I was dragging a 1.6kg rock arround with me over the rear wheel (which is what it was).

I'd accept a weight penalty at the BB, but not that far back. Either make it weigh the same as a conventional hub and cassette or shift the weight somewhere more central.

I ran a Rohloff for 2 years and that was pretty much my complaint. I learned a lot about chain retention, but the biggest issue was that it just made the bike feel a bit unresponsive and a lot less fun with all the weight over the back wheel. Which is a shame, cause it makes perfect sense as an idea (gears on the inside, not the outside).
That said, if I hadn't already tried a Rohloff, I'd be mighty tempted by this, even at 3.5lbs (claimed)

Rode a rolhoff once, felt like I was dragging a 1.6kg rock arround with me over the rear wheel (which is what it was).

1590g+however much single cog weighs vs 1100g for a derailleur rear hub etc. (LX rear derailleur, hub & 11-34 cassette) doesn't sound like that bad? Or is there something else that I didn't account for? 500-600g doesn't sound like masses of difference really, I mean it isn't like it is at the outside of the wheel.

Joe

500-600g doesn't sound like masses of difference

Is this a kind of physicists' 'in joke' 😉

I've never really noticed the balance issue but then I tend to keep both wheels on the ground. With suspension forks on my bike the point of balance is pretty much the same as a rigid bike with conventional gearing.

as a newbie, yesterdays ride was the first in real filthy conditions, several times the rear mech (xt) didn't change when i asked it to so i had to click again, then a minute later it changes on it's own. front mech (lx) wouldn't change up once it had got clogged in middle or granny. when i came to a halt on steep accents i couldn't rotate the pedals backwards for a good starting position because the jockey wheels were clogged. on top of that i was probably carrying the extra weight equivalent to 4 rohloffs on each wheel in mud. it was a good day for thinking about hub gears.

thisisnotaspoon - Why cant they just do it properly? Define a new BB size

+1 (i'd be at the front of the queue)

Wonder when it will be possible to preorder, i'm sold. I've only just converted to Alfine 8 and i love it but just missing a few more top end gears.

Well, I've just ordered a IO iD with 8 speed Alfine; I reckon they'll be bloody expensive next year at 11 speed. Will upgrade to the 11 speed job as an when I wear the original out in a few years.....

£300-£350 for the hub, £70 for the build up, £100 back for my old Alfine kit. I'm happy at that compared to £800 for a Rohloff!

What chain do you use as a spare on the 8 speed alfine?

[b]chain[/b]; I use a 3/32 KMC singlespeed chain, but you can use any 9sp
[b]gearing[/b]; I *believe* that they recommend a minimum 2:1 between chainring and cog to avoid over-torquing the box, although I've seen people run lower and haven't yet heard of anyone breaking one. This would give you a lowest gear of about 26 on the Alfine 8 or about equal to 32/32 so not granny gearing according to Sheldon.

my question for you alfine mountainbikers (mine is on a tourer). how is the gear changing on the trail, especially changing down while climbing? The feeling I get is that it doesn't really change under load, does this require more technique than changing deurallier gears under load?

It does require a bit of a shift in gear changing technique. BUT, not that much.
Only occasionally do i ever have to think about chain torque to get it to shift.

And only [u]very[/u] occasionally do i ever have to think about cleaning my bike to get it to work. Which is the real story for me.

Cant wait till I can get to 11.

Must admit, after last night's night ride in some of the worst conditions I have ever encountered in the Wyre, I am seriously considering an Alfine. Even popped into the LBS to try a Genisis IO out. When are they going to be releasing the 11 speed one then?
D'oh! reread 1st page.. sept 2010.....

Mick

You may recall a couple of weeks ago we met in the carpark of the Duke on the Wednesday night (17th I think) I was on a green IO ID that night.

With the Bonty ACX tyres on, the bike hardly missed a beat in the muck that night - only when it became so deep you couldn't walk properly anyway.

I can ony add to the chorus of voices that are recommending it.

If you fancy meeting up so you can take it out in th eofrest then drop me a line.

Ben

Cheers for the offer Ben. The mud last night was thick liquid ( like pedlling through syrup) but as soon as it touched the frame/ gears it just froze solid. We had 3 stops to try and chip the mud off and get a useable gear.

I must say that I really like the idea and the price is pretty good too.

I'm not really bothered by the extra weight in itself, but I don't think I would like an extra Kg at the end of my swingarm - that's nearly a whole extra wheel and won't translate into great suspension performance.

Not a problem for hardtail riders of course, and I like to give it a go on my FS, to see how much difference it makes.

Aye, I've been on the Malverns when the mud has frozen on the deraileurs so I couldn't change gear. No such problem with the Alfine to date.

Did it freeze your chain as well then?

Must have been a chilly night! was the mud syrupy because it was on the point of freezing?

We've got an email folder to save peoples addresses until we get preorder prices/details. [[url= http://www.18bikes.co.uk/news.php?articleshow=417 ]get in touch if you want?[/url]

glenh - I don't think I would like an extra Kg at the end of my swingarm - that's nearly a whole extra wheel and won't translate into great suspension performance

I wouldn't have thought it would have any effect on suspension performance as it's unsprung weight but stand to be corrected.

i want an 11 speed, was going to make a hardtail but having ridden full sussers for the first time last sunday and ridden full suss and hardtail back to back at cannock on wednesday i'm now thinking full sus alfine.

with a better range and price more comparable with derailleurs i wonder if any manufacturers will consider making full sus alfine models?

as there's much speculation and not much in the way of facts about the extra weight of an alfine bike over conventional 3x9 set-up i decided to do some digging.

i've just had an email from charge bikes and it says,

"There is virtually no difference in overall weight (less than 100g from memory), between a duster 8 and equivalent priced duster with conventional gearing."

obviously there is a rearward weight shift with the alfine but this answers any overall weight questions.

Having done 2 rides on my new io ID with Alfine..

It's fantastic!

Simple, fab handling, jumps well and changes instantly....

unless downshifting under load. You have to back off a bit and it's all fine.

Loving the new simple ride...

[b]Stu McGroo[/b]. I did some maths and came up with a difference of about 5-600gr between alfine and xt 3x9. But XT 3x9 is probably more expensive, I expect Charge are comparing with Deore, which would make sense to me price and weight wise. Plus Alfine gearing (even A-11) cant replace 3x9 mountain gearing, the range isn't yet broad enough (about good enough for 2x9 though) Rolhoff does but is half kilo heavier than Alfine (and 4 times the price, near enough)

as for unsprung weight, that's the kind you want to avoid, as it happens, which is why a few niche companies have been experimenting with mounting rolhoffs in the frame, something that I hope to see someone do to an Alfine soon enough.

Still, I have an Alfine 8 and like it. Alfine 11 with no weight added has got to be a move in the right direction, I wonder if the A-8 will be lighter for '11?

I'm severely tempted to try one on an MTB (I have one on my touring bike) but don't really have the spare rack space atm (Mrs Facist insists it's one-bike-out-one-bike-in from now on...... 🙄 ) perhaps I could just get a wheel and cheekily swap it out on my SS... just for a try out like

I rode an iO ID properly off road for the first time last weekend at Glentress and was surprised how good it was. I did worry the backend would slam into stuff as I am not the most delicate on a bike but I adjusted almost instantly and it was fine. I am definitely in the queue for an 11 speed hub even though I am not sure what to fit it to.

I am definitely in the queue for an 11 speed hub even though I am not sure what to fit it to.

I really want to get one £350 isnt too bad But I wouldnt want to pay much more than that!

[b]freegan bikefascist[/b] you're probably right, nl was specific about "equivalent priced". it's not realistic to compare alfine to top end 3x9 as there would be a huge price difference and therefore have completely different customer base.

as for unsprung weight i agree, there's no point having suspension then have loads of weight the wrong side of it. my point to glenh was that i'd doubt it would have much effect on the way the suspension operates, several hundred grams may have shifted to the rear wheel but this is nothing compared to the biggest moving mass on the bike i.e. the rider, who could weight anything from 50-110 kg (4-9 times the weight of the bike itself), that's a hell of a lot of range for a suspension system to cope with nevermind the fact that it's not fixed in one place.

personally i'm less concerned about the range, as long as i can gear 1st to match a 3x9 1st i'd be happy, it would mean i'm missing my 3 highest gears but i only ever use those on down hill road sections, though i think the gaps are slightly bigger on the 11 (not so keen on that) so i'd actually only lose my top 2 ratios.

anyway, only 6 months to wait, i need to get some bits together!

Alfine 11 + Gates belt drive for me please

[b]Stu McGroo[/b]

as long as i can gear 1st to match a 3x9 1st i'd be happy

indeed. apparently (I've never seen it in their literature though) shimano insist on a minimum 2:1 ratio (chainring : sprocket) to avoid over torquing, which on an A-8 would give a 26" gear or about middle chain ring and lowest on the cassette so you lose a gear or two from the bottom compared to 3x9. Not sure of the gearing on the A-11 whether the extra breadth is at the top or the bottom. That said, I have met plenty of people who have broken the 2:1 rule with impunity, in fact I've personally yet to meet anyone who's managed to break an Alfine, although I'm sure it must be possible

surely the 'average' rider puts out arround half to 2/3 of the torque of a roadie/XC racer, therefore the 'average' rider could get away with 33%-50% lower gearing?

we've had no issues on the 8spd at about 1.8:1. you could go lower if you spin rather than haul, as it's about overall torque loads not just the gear ratios; the 2:1 limit is shimano's way of ensuring it's as strip-proof as can be under a powerful rider. we'll look after anyone who has any issues with the iO ID as we spec it that way (yet had none in 3 years plus now), but aftermarket hubs will be covered by shimano's warranty only so bear that in mind if gearing it really low.

James / Genesis

[b]thisisnotaspoon[/b]

true enough, however Shimano have (up until now at least) always marketted this hub in their "comfort" line rather than giving it any hoon-ey or race-y pretensions. I'm very interested to see where they take this as it's the market developing this product, normal guys buying the hub and doing things with it that it's not really intended for rather than Shimano themselves.

Once (or perhaps now) they see potential in the MTB market aswell then that can justify more research leading to better product then we're away

Can anyone vouch for how the bearings hold up over time in the Alfine hubs? I assume they are still crappy cup and cone. Only had bad experiences with other Shimano hubs. Are they easy to maintain on the Alfine?

The bearings in mine have died after about a year, unfortunately the races in the hub are pitted, so it is somewhat terminal, going to keep running it until it dies completely though.

"I assume they are still crappy cup and cone. "

they're good quality cup and cone and servicable, gimme cup and cone over bearings any time. bad experiences often to come from lack of servicing or poor adjustments, i've had 3 years + out of a deore rear hub with only 2 yearly clean-outs.

the only issues i've seen with alfine hubs are the bearings - people think the entire hub is service free, ride it and jet wash it for 18mths, then find that the bearing races are shot. the gearing is low maintenance but the bearings still need re-greasing now and then like any cup/cone hub.

It gets better, the internals need servicing every 2 years/5000kms according to the manual.

Happy happy days!

just noticed that 18 bikes are taking pre-orders on 11 speeds at £375 and £55 for the shifter. tried to paste a link but it ain't playing ball.

Pre-ordered mine from Nirvana recently. I wasn’t sure what size sprocket to get? The gear range has been increased but is that increase at the higher or lower end? Or both? BikeMagic seems to suggest the increase is at the lower end which means we would need a smaller sprocket or bigger chainring than the 8-speed Alfine to move the range into useful ratios?

"The existing eight-speed Alfine has a gear range of 306%, a Speedhub offers 526% and the new 11-speed Alfine will come between the two at 409%. To put that into context, eight-speed Alfine is roughly equivalent to an 11-34 cassette, while the 2011 unit would be 11-45. Obviously you can tweak the chainring and sprocket sizes to move that range into useful ratios."

Reckon hub gears are the future but we need something between Alfine spread of gearing and Rohloff price for off road.

Ran a Rohloff for a winter, but eventually sold it on. Two reasons:
1. Weight at the back made it feel very unresponsive. But this might be a combination of (a) my lack of any technique other than 'hold on and plough through' and (b) I compared it to a SS set-up (same bike, just a Rohloff / 819 wheel vs. DMR Revolver / 819 wheel).
2. Soul-destroying drag in 1-7. Now, it *might* be no worse that a dirty normal set-up, but it was a lot worse than a dirty SS set-up. But far, far worse than that was the noise - it was just so depressing to hear it that I nearly always just wanted to get off and push instead.

Now, if the Alfine can run silently I'd be interested at the prices being quoted. But really, we need this sort of technology brought to the BB area IMHO, as others have said.

if the Alfine can run silently

Isn't the rolhoff more like 2x7 than the alfines 1x8/11? The extra drag coming from the second 2 speed gearbox?

Come on shimano, get with the gearbox program, We want american sized BB's with gears built in!