How on earth can Theresa May believe that valid options for a government can include: –
– Prosecuting someone by retrospectively changing the law after the action was taken?
– Suspension of a law by government to take previously illegal action and then reinstate the law post action?

Surely even the most cursory review should tell them that such actions are actually immoral and contrary to the operation of justice? I’m no fan of Abu Hamza but this is obscene!

They go against the rule of law for sure, what is she up to?

These are the times I worry about the future…

cynic-al – Member
They go against the rule of law for sure, what is she up to?

Trying to Cynically win an election?

I’m no fan of Abu Hamza either but what has this got to do with him?

Qatada on the other hand* is a puzzler. If he is such a nasty piece of work, surely he would be locked right now. As far as I can see he hasn’t actually been found guilty of serious crime. I’m no fan of mouthy gobshites, which he certainly is, but if he is a terrorist, lock him up. Or has it now got to the face saving stage…
.
.
.
*see what I did there? 8)

renditions, drone strikes, etc
this is peanuts compared to some of the other stuff in the war against terror
arms sales to saudi, bahrain etc
persecuting the disabled, those on benefits……..

I think you leave your morals at the door when you join the cabinet

and May being a woman amongst the pack of braying old etonians and bullingdon bully boys has to stand up and be counted with them

Abu Hamza was deported to the US wasn’t he??
I assume you mean Abu Qatada.

Edit-which is contradictory as the US clearly tortures suspects both at Guantanamo and elsewhere and also has the death penalty.

“Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” (Orwell 37). 

Shame on her.

May being a woman amongst the pack of braying old etonians and bullingdon bully boys has to stand up and be counted with them

So what was Tony Blair’s excuse ?

The last Labour government received very little hassle as they engaged in extraordinary renditions, drone strikes, arms sales to Saudi, Bahrain, etc.

And handing people over to Libya to be tortured, without any sort of public outcry, was remarkably easy for New Labour.

I agree with ernie.

im well aware that renditions were carried out under nulabour, straw, d.milliband and co- which is why I mentioned them

and i dont think it was ignored
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest#London
infact blair has had more accusations of warmongering than any PM im aware of

just saying that May has to be that much more ruthless because shes a woman of the nasty party

tony= who knows? faith in god, himself??

Genuine question from someone who may be a bit dim – what would be the consequences if we just booted the bellend out?

Napalm – Member

“Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past”

Now testify!
Testify!
It’s right outside your door!

What kind of message does it send when the government tries to circumvent the law in order to get rid of people they don’t like? Aren’t the Tories supposed to be the party of law and order?

What kind of message does it send when we try and circumvent the law in order to get rid of people we don’t like.

Maybe that as a nation, we aren’t just a soft option for extremist tools to come and exploit?

Maybe that as a nation, we aren’t just a soft option for extremist tools to come and exploit?

Or that as a nation, we just make up the rules as we go along when we don’t like people (while sanctimoniously preaching to other countries about human rights).

may has to be that much more ruthless because shes a woman of the nasty party

But if you accept that New Labour were no different when it comes to “extraordinary renditions, drone strikes, arms sales to Saudi, Bahrain, etc.” then had she been a woman of the New Labour party, she would presumably have needed to have been equally ruthless.

The fact that she is a Tory appears to be a red herring.

Again, I agree with Ernie.

This is getting worrying 😉

Maybe that as a nation, we aren’t just a soft option for extremist tools to come and exploit?

ooohh does that mean we should kick out nick griffin too?

and i dont think it was ignored
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest#London
infact blair has had more accusations of warmongering than any PM im aware of

As I said, he received very little hassle – he wasn’t even sacked.

And went on to become “Middle East Peace Envoy”.

Or that as a nation, we just make up the rules as we go along when we don’t like people (while sanctimoniously preaching to other countries about human rights).

No change there then.

shirley its a blue herring?

I suppose you are trying to get me to say that I think the torries are less compassionate than nulabour

well …..yes I do – there seems to be little compassion at the moment http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/24/disable-appeal-independent-living-fund

and maybe im mistaken but May seems to be bending over backwards to please some of the really quite unpleasant people on the telegraph comments board and im assuming that they would consider themselves torys

To be fair I think the reason Theresa May is getting flak just now instead of Tony Blair is that this is a shit thing she’s doing right now, rather than in the past. “Tony Blair is a dick” isn’t news.

If the only response you have is “Well so and so did something bad too” then I’m afraid you are boned. That’s not a defence, it’s an admission of failure.

yeah Tony B, loved by all

tony blair war criminal is the top search assosciated with his name on google

I suppose you are trying to get me to say that I think the torries are less compassionate than nulabour

I not trying to get you to say anything. I just think your suggestion that “renditions, drone strikes, arms sales to Saudi, Bahrain, etc.” are something specific to the Tories should be challenged, clearly they are not. And in the case of extraordinary renditions and drone strikes they were first instigated by New Labour. In fact I’m not even aware of any extraordinary rendition cases under a Tory government.

Plus of course New Labour didn’t bother with the law, and simply sent people illegally to be tortured.

it’s not a party political matter; it’s selective human rights.

This bloke is just an outlier, but how long before the majority start to be affected by the casual disregard for the rights of the individual?

kimbers

It was actually the Tories who introduced the ILF in 1988 for an initial 5 year period.

erm where did I say they were exclusive to the torries?

everyone recognises T.W.A.T. as being part of the bush/blair years rather than the coalition, Im not aware of any renditions under the current government either, which is why I mentioned renditions (but then by their nature you wouldnt, did anyone know back then?)

Ernie, any chance you could engage with the thread rather than arguing against a suggestion Kimbers hasn’t made?

BTW
When was this halcyon time when the UK was seen as a bastion of liberty and human rights in anyone’s minds except our own??

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR – Member

Genuine question from someone who may be a bit dim – what would be the consequences if we just booted the bellend out?

The opposition party(s) use it as an excuse to stir up a storm in the tea cup. Apart from that no other nations in the world would care about your internal business, but if they cannot get him out the rest of the world would just simply laugh at you.

grum – Member

What kind of message does it send when the government tries to circumvent the law in order to get rid of people they don’t like? Aren’t the Tories supposed to be the party of law and order?

You should be better asking where in the world does a govt not circumvent the law?

Again it’s not about political parties it’s about which party in the world is a party of law and order?

grum – Member

Or that as a nation, we just make up the rules as we go along when we don’t like people (while sanctimoniously preaching to other countries about human rights).

Tell me which nation does not do so? You are lucky that in the Western world you still have the law to mess with. In other part of the world you simply disappear. End of story. No news. Speculate as much as you like.

bigrich – Member

it’s not a party political matter; it’s selective human rights.

This bloke is just an outlier, but how long before the majority start to be affected by the casual disregard for the rights of the individual?

Should be human wrong … not human right. Human can never be right.

🙄

Ernie, any chance you could engage with the thread rather than arguing against a suggestion Kimbers hasn’t made?

What are you talking about Northwind ?

What do you think this is ?

kimbers – Member

renditions, drone strikes, etc
this is peanuts compared to some of the other stuff in the war against terror
arms sales to saudi, bahrain etc
persecuting the disabled, those on benefits……..

I think you leave your morals at the door when you join the cabinet

and May being a woman amongst the pack of braying old etonians and bullingdon bully boys has to stand up and be counted with them

Something I made up ?

my points were 2fold

that once in the CABINET (that refers to any government) morals are lost and i used T.W.A.T. as an example quite clearly something assosciated with nulabour

and that May has to be more of a hard-faced b— because of the party shes in

please highlight exactly where I said that “renditions, drone strikes, arms sales were specific to the torries”?

or just keep repeating the same thing over and over till I go to bed

infact I give up youve won, Im going to bed,
I do hope this minor victory in your never ending struggle against whatever it is that upsets you so much about stuff I havent said leaves you with a smug self satisfied glow for the rest of the evening 😥

please highlight exactly where I said that renditions, drone strikes, arms sales were specific to the torries?

or just keep repeating the same thing over and over till I go to bed

ernie_lynch – Member

But if you accept that New Labour were no different when it comes to “extraordinary renditions, drone strikes, arms sales to Saudi, Bahrain, etc.” then had she been a woman of the New Labour party, she would presumably have needed to have been equally ruthless.

The fact that she is a Tory appears to be a red herring.

Posted 51 minutes ago

Ernie, you made this bit up:

ernie_lynch – Member

your suggestion that “renditions, drone strikes, arms sales to Saudi, Bahrain, etc.” are something specific to the Tories should be challenged, clearly they are not.

He has made no such suggestion. But you know that.

Oh ok, I made it all up. The references to “the Nasty Party” and the “braying old etonians and bullingdon bully boys” wasn’t kimbers trying to make an issue about May being a Tory, or turning it into a party political issue.

How could I have misunderstood ?

🙄

It’s almost as though that was a separate point about Theresa May eh, since it’s in a different paragraph and all and doesn’t sit at all with the point that precedes it. How could you have misunderstood it? Good question.

OTOH I think Kimbers is pretty patronising to assume it’s a “female in a man’s world” issue- May is a strongminded person and perfectly capable of being a bawbag off her own bat. It’s a possible explanation but not the only one.

Apologies all I meant Abu Qatada when I originally posted yesterday. Was very tired from a particularly hard day at work filled by a great evening ride at Cannock! Lots of natural riding and a tiny bit of the Monkey.

it’s not a party political matter; it’s selective human rights.
This bloke is just an outlier, but how long before the majority start to be affected by the casual disregard for the rights of the individual?

This is what I was getting at. Blair government, Coalition government it doesn’t matter. When governments choose to act immorally to suit themselves we have a problem. It’s not a new thing, but Mrs May et al seem to be taking these steps to show they are tough on terror and to appeal to an electorate on that basis. To my mind if you are going to do that they may as well repeal the removal of the death penalty for a day – hang him and then reinstate the removal.

Imagine the furore if another country tried to do what the government are trying now but involving a British national abroad…

and lo…………after i posted that ernie just keeps repeating himself, he quotes me saying this and then repeats himself!?

then he changes from the spurious

ernie_lynch – Member
your suggestion that “renditions, drone strikes, arms sales to Saudi, Bahrain, etc.” are something specific to the Tories should be challenged, clearly they are not.

to the slightly less made up

kimbers trying to make an issue about May being a Tory, or turning it into a party political issue.

as ernie knows what im thinking better than I do, I think it best I just send him my login and password and he can post for me

or maybe, just maybe he could ADMIT HE WAS WRONG! (yeah i know porcine aviators etc)

and back vaguely on topic, yes May is going to these extraordinary lengths to try and win back the support of the ex-tory voters defecing to ukip