Just throw some banana skins about the place.

Within minutes, this will have led to the complete destruction of entire areas of plants and stuff, and the deer will simply cease to exist in those areas. Simples.

I threw a banana skin in Swinley forest on Saturday, and there was a fire. Proof, if it were needed, of their destructive nature.

Banana skins are the most destructive thing known to mankind, and will knack the entire planet if we’re not careful. Used wisely, they could save Scotland from the Red Deer Peril.

Or you could just concrete and tarmac over the areas where deer roam. Then people could drive cars to previously inaccessible places. They could even set up businesses and stuff there, and save the economy.

Why I’m not in charge of this country I really do not know….

Ben Alder is maintained as a shooting estate.

Is it? how do you know and what difference would it make?

You cannot have it both ways Roz

Deer are naturally occuring, and have just as much right to be there as any other species of plant or animal. It’s all about balance, and therefore you CAN have it both ways.

so you admit there are too many deer so you have to feed them to stop them destroying the landscape in winter.

No, as far as I’m concerned, there are not too many deer.

Yes, I fully appreciate this, and it’s not something I make a habit of.
I have nothing to gain personally from this subject, I’m merely offering some facts about the area that I feel has been wrongly targeted in this thread.

Elfinsafety

Does the bannan skin method work on ramblers?

Roz – you say

Grazing impact by deer is required on blanket bog habitat to PREVENT the growth of naturally seeded trees. Trees dry up blanket bog, which destroys it.

Winter feeding is done as a diversionary measure to keep deer impacts on the most sensitive areas to an absolute minimum during a time of year when there is no natural re-growth and recovery.

Now either there is the right number of deer to graze the land to ensure the bogs are as they are in which case the second quote is wrong, or the second quote is right in which case the first is wrong and there is an unsustainably high number of deer.

In order to prevent further damage to the landscape you have to feed them to

keep deer impacts on the most sensitive areas to an absolute minimum

“Ben Alder is maintained as a shooting estate”.

Is it? how do you know and what difference would it make?

Plenty of mention of it on the web including a whole heap of praise for the gamekeeper who refers to it as such.

The difference – they keep the deer numbers artificially high by winter feeding leading to the denuded impoverished eroded landscape.

Edit – Roz -= its opinion not fact in the main. You have yours. I have mine. I have been walking and cycling the hills for decades and its very easy to tell the relative deer densities from the nature of the vegetation. I prefer and want to see more of the varied mixed woodland, the caledonian forest, the scrubland. I do not want to see Scotland as a huge deer and grouse farm stripped of all its cover – huge areas of monoculture.

If you read the snh publications you will begin to grasp how much damage the deer do. Now perhaps Ben Alder has started to put its house in order. Its an uphill battle getting the “sporting” estates to do so.

Are you one of the estate workers?

Jesus christ TJ, is there any subject you won’t argue about?!. You must be a dream to live with….

Lots no beer – lots. 🙂

I just took a look at SNT’s Conservation Management Plan for the Mar Lodge Estate. I haven’t read all of it, but I did find this …

Mar Lodge Estate has 3 separate areas of native Caledonian woodland covering almost 800 hectares —which is c. 5% of the total national resource. This habitat is important for red squirrel, black grouse, capercaillie, scottish crossbill, parrot crossbill, wood ants, other invertebrates and fungi. Some of the Scots pines themselves are highly significant as ancient trees and they have provided the second longest native pine reference chronology in Scotland, stretching back to 1477. These pinewoods are now elderly remnants of a much larger forest cover which has declined further over the last 150 years because deer browsing has prevented any natural regeneration. There is now an opportunity to enhance the significance of this habitat through native woodland restoration on a truly landscape scale.

… so they seem to be going in for deer control, with agreement with SNH.

For those who don’t know it, the Mar Lodge Estate is part of the Cairngorms.

Actually, both of those quotes are right. Between the months of May and September (inclusive)Browsing herbivores are required to naturally crop the dominant species, and to fertilise by dunging. Out with these times, ie winter, browsing pressure ideally wants to be reduced so no lasting impact can be done at a time when there is no regrowth. diversionary feeding was experimented with around 40 years ago and found to have the perfect effect.

Can you please post links to the information you found about the land use as a shooting estate, including the information about the gamekeeper, as I can’t find it.

Yes indeed, opinions will vary. I’m basing mine on evidence that prevents trees being grown on the Ben Alder SAC.

Native woodland growing in Scotland can only be a good thing, but there are other habitats in Scotland that might not look as appealing to you, but should be given their place.

I know very well the damage deer can do, and there is absolutely no doubt that there are areas where deer populations are too high. Ben Alder is not one of them.

Slowoldgit,
Mar Lodge is owned by the National Trust, who were fined for their failure in attempting to regenerate trees there. They were funded some £3million of tax payers money to run the project, £750,000 of which was allocated to deer control. The deer were slaughtered with no regard for the legal close seasons, which then impacted on the tourism around the Braemar area due to the lack of deer as an attraction.
A good example why sometimes things are best left alone, and trees don’t naturally grow everywhere.

He is convinced that his training has made him more aware of legislation and best practice which he can now apply at Ben Alder, where Andrew is working with on bird shoots and deer stalking.

http://www.lantra.co.uk/News-Media/Case-Studies/Game-and-Wildlife-Management/Andrew-Buchan—Ben-Alder-Estate.aspx

I know very well the damage deer can do, and there is absolutely no doubt that there are areas where deer populations are too high. Ben Alder is not one of them.

This is a matter of opinion. Seeing the devalued eroded land with no young trees anywhere say the deer population is far too high. Ben alder may not be the worst and may have improved but seeing a large are of land turned into a quagmire by the deer…..

The deer were slaughtered with no regard for the legal close seasons, which then impacted on the tourism around the Braemar area due to the lack of deer as an attraction.

Bullshine.

You are coming it with teh classic deer stalkers defences. are you an estate worker?

I have to say, that is a very interesting link! The young lad in that article works on Dalwhinnie & Strathmashie, nowhere near the Ben Alder SAC. There is no bird shooting on Ben Alder.

You continually make reference to eroded land, what is it you term as erosion? there certainly doesn’t appear to be any erosion in the picture you posted.

You are a employee of the Ben Alder estates are you not? Or what is your link to this?

I note you do not deny deer shooting on the estate. Is that link inaccurate? Are you saying there is no shooting on the ben alder estate? (not sac)

Eroded land? the area around where the feeding of the deer was a huge boggy quagmire. In many other places the heavily grazed nature of the land makes it vulnerable to erosion.

Please note a part of it is known as the Ben Alder Forest – despite being mainly denuded of trees now.

After a quick google, I think Roz got her info about Mar Lodge from the Scottish Gamekeepers’ Association website. It seems the SNT has about halved the number of red deer. The comment about the shortage of deer affecting tourism around Braemar comes from the Gamekeepers’ vice chairman.

Indeed it does slowoldgit – its a classic one the hunting shooting fishin lot use to defend the indefensible.

After all no one comes as a tourist to see red squirrels, capercallie, Caledonian forest do they?

When can we start culling humans because of overcrowding and the damage they do?

At least it’s still possible to see a Red Deer which is still a pretty iconic Scottish image and a bit better than Rab C. Sadly it’s getting increasingly difficult to see a Red Squirrel and very few people will ever see a Capercaillie.

When can we stop people from having a view or opinion because they may work for/at/be a vested interest the subject under discussion.

Are you a vegan TJ.

Ben Alder Forest. The correct name is in fact Ben Alder Deer Forest. It has nothing to do with trees.

I’ve never seen tourists driving up the Linn of Dee road in September/October to watch rutting Squirrels or trees.

I’ve been employed as a wildlife and conservation manager on Ben Alder Estate since 1993. I can assure you, the only shooting done on Ben Alder Estate is deer. None of which is let, and so there is no commercial gain from shooting of any description.

Does the fact that I’m an employee make my points less valid to you?

Everyone has a different ideal. I, not unlike you, do actually like trees. For this reason I spend a lot of time on my bike in the Rothiemurchus and Glenmore areas.

None of the (extensive) pine forest that exists on Ben Alder estate is natural, and therefore it is undesireable to regenerate new growth which would seed from these non native trees.
There are several small fenced areas where native species have been nursery grown from local seed, and planted. This has been very successful so far so there will be more of this done in the future.

Red Deer, our largest native land mammal does not deserve to be treated as vermin.

stevenmenmuir

My point being that cutting deer numbers thus allowing the woodlands to regenerate will increase the numbers of capercaillie and red squirrel

mt – I eat venison every chance I get 🙂

roz – thanks for that. As I accepted early on in this debate if Ben Alder has put it house in order and reduced deer numbers then this is a good thing and that it is not the worst out there by a long way. Is the boggy mess where the deer are fed still there?

I will also go on record here as saying the the restoration of the stalkers paths on the estate is absolutly great – really nicely done. If you are to thank for that then thank you. A path above the road back to dalwhinnie from above the lodge would be really nice – Please 🙂 that dirt road is tedious to walk and ride

Perhpas this debate which started as a general debate has got sidetracked into the specifics and minutae of the actions on this one estate

Does the fact that I’m an employee make my points less valid to you?

No – I just like to know where people are coming from honestly.

There are several small fenced areas where native species have been nursery grown from local seed, and planted. This has been very successful so far so there will be more of this done in the future.

Good – I would still prefer the deer numbers to be reduced so fences are not needed as the fences have undesireable effects. Any new native / local trees are good tho for sure.

Its one of my favourite areas in Scotland – I have walked an biked thru it many times and will do so again.

You are probably right to be defensive about this as it is not one of the worst estates. I merely used it as an example.

However there is a range of opinions about how the land would be managed best and yours and mine are different. I would like to see the deer population massively reduced over the whole country and eliminated entirely from some glens. I want to see the forests regenerate and I hate to see deer fencing

My point being that cutting deer numbers thus allowing the woodlands to regenerate will increase the numbers of capercaillie and red squirrel

It’ll take more than cutting deer numbers to do that.

You aren’t the only one with that opinion, and some estates are doing exactly that, neighbouring Corrour for one. It will be interesting to see the results if they happen in my lifetime!
We have looked at all options, and there is always the likelihood that policies can change. The fenced areas are small and experimental, and viewed as a short term option to kick start some native species into establishing.
Fences are to be removed once they have been in place for 20 years, which is a very short time in relation to the lifetime of the native woodland they create.

Thank you for the kind words regarding the paths, this is a long term and continuing project to reinstate all the original routes on the estate. It’s done by hand, with the only mechanical help being small tracked honda motorised barrows. The enviromental impact is absolutely minimal, but the end result is very satisfactory. As much as I’d love the idea of a nice singletrack path parallel to the road, I can’t see it happening any time soon! 😉

I chose to initially withold the fact that I’m an employee because it pre-empts opinion from the reader before they have taken in what has actually been written.

Thank you also for your input in this discussion, maybe see you on the hill one day 🙂

Nice one Roz, I hope you stay on here. We’ll value your input.

We were up that way in June and loved the trails, big thank you. Was also quite glad of the road on the way back when I was dying on my arse.

Roz – what you need to keep hold of is tho we may bicker and disagree we all love these hills

that photo I posted you must recognise – its one of my very favorite palces and you can see my tent in the corner of it.

You aren’t the only one with that opinion, and some estates are doing exactly that, neighbouring Corrour for one. It will be interesting to see the results if they happen in my lifetime!

Already I have seen major changes in my time and at 50 yrs I expect another 25 or more years in the hills now and then – so changes will be seen.

I do indeed recognise the place in your photo, was the bothy busy while you were there? Lots of people opt to camp closeby when the weather is good but it’s been exceptionally busy this year due to the persistent rain.
There is a bridge half a mile or so down stream from your canp, was it still the old swinging bridge when you were there? I built a bigger stronger rigid bridge in the same spot a few years ago, which is MUCH easier to cross with a bike!

Hi tj, glad your a venison eater. Give a bit of support to those that do the stalking and killing for you. (smiley face is not working) If you get the time have a look at the British Deer Society website.

This thread has been pretty interesting.

Tj commented about hating to see the deer fencing. Worst of all is the fencing with blue rope threaded through it, or with orange netting laced to it. I hope it’s a temporary measure, is it to stop grouse flying into it?

Venison eater here!

Lots of people opt to camp closeby when the weather is good but it’s been exceptionally busy this year due to the persistent rain.

We ended up pitched up in a sheltered layby thing on the track that leads towards Kinlochlaggan, was slightly worried we might end up sharing it with the horses!

On the last night coming off the hill we left the girls in the bothy as we humphed down to the tents, picked up everything we needed and scarpered back to the bothy, only an extra 8km at the end of the day but worth it, we’d been woken that morning by midgies hitting the canvas so hard it sounded like gentle rain! 😯

Tj commented about hating to see the deer fencing. Worst of all is the fencing with blue rope threaded through it, or with orange netting laced to it. I hope it’s a temporary measure, is it to stop grouse flying into it?

I know the RSPB introduced a similar idea to prevent Caper flying into fences. I’d love to see a caper in the wild but don’t want to pay to just be led to a lek, but nor do I want to blunder about their territory during mating season!

our largest native land mammal does not deserve to be treated as vermin.

Pretty much sums it up for me!

Worth also commenting that

allowing the woodlands to regenerate will increase the numbers of capercaillie and red squirrel

More trees Ain’t gonna do nothing to bring on Caper without a fairly extensive predator control programme in place!

PS. Venison producer and eater here 😉

Yes, its a method that the forestery commision adopted to prevent Black Grouse(predominantly) from flying into new fences, it’s a temporary measure until the trees are tall enough that birds would be flying higher than the fence line anyway.
Agreed it aint pretty!!

Thanks Roz.