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ways to improve running pace?

48 posts & 23 voices | Started 2 years ago by dirtygirlonabike | Latest reply from Keva

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dirtygirlonabike - Member

My current running pace is around 12 - 13kph, depending on how I am feeling, distance and hills. I'd like to be able to run a 10k in 40mins. What's the best way of increasing my pace? I feel atm that my legs lack some power to go faster, but my endurance/fitness is fine. I've been doing a few sprint intervals, but they are pretty evil, and I'm usually nearly sick at some point - plus it takes me ages to warm up, and usually get better the more I do/longer I'm out for.

So I'm thinking I need to be able to run a negative split, given I feel better the more I do. But I struggle to hold 15kph for more than a few mins without slowing down the pace to recover.

My other issue is hr - my average hr for running is 181. I can sit at 180 (give or take a few beats) for almost all of a steady run (around an hour). However, as this is pretty high, I do struggle when I want to sprint as my hr is already high - it pushes it up to my max pretty easily. Do I just run more sprints/intervals and get used to the faster pace that way (and hope my hr adapts?)

I don't want to get too caught up in the "training" aspect i.e have planned intervals/long runs etc, as i still want to maintain an element of fun/change from riding, so don't want to follow a set programme, just have an idea of what i should be trying to include when i feel like it. (and yes, i have looked on runners world for programme, but i'm keen to hear how other bikers find running/experiences etc)

Posted 2 years ago #
Mattie_H - Member

I know you've said you don't want to do a proper training programme, but they really are the best way of getting your speed up whatever distance you're targeting. The Runner's World site is great and there's also a fantastic book called Running is Easy by Bruce Tulloh. Crazy but inspirational stuff.

If you don't want to tick off sessions on a programme, then you could just build in a few fartlek runs during the week. It's Swedish for 'speed play' and just means that you constantly vary your pace and effort depending on how you feel--short bursts up a hill then a jog recovery, steady pace at just below HR threshold, some longer periods of effort then slow again. If you keep mixing it up according to what your body's telling you then you can get a lot of the training benefits but avoid the regimentation / oh shit I want to throw up my lungs feeling that you get with intervals.

Posted 2 years ago #
juan - Member

Well change your shoes not sure the purple one are the more appropriate
As for why someone with a bike would want to run...

Posted 2 years ago #
finbar - Member

Mileage.

That's it, run more. More often and shorter is better than less often and further. Make your easy runs easy and throw a tempo run in once a week.

Posted 2 years ago #
Smee - Blocked

What kind of sprint intervals are you doing? My preference is for 60m sprints with a walk back, 3 sets of 10. Seems to do me fine.

Posted 2 years ago #
mogrim - Member

If you want to get down to 40mins, I'd say a training plan would be pretty essential. And that plan will undoubtably include intervals

The only other option is to race more - do at least one a month. Mind you don't overdo it, though.

Posted 2 years ago #
aracer - Member

I was going to ask the same question as TZF, but suggest the opposite - that you may be doing too short intervals. 60m sprints might be fine for a 400m or 800m runner, but I'd suggest they're recruiting the wrong physiology for running 10km. You want to be doing longer intervals at a steadier pace - at least 1 minute long, though I'll do intervals up to 5 minutes long.

The crucial thing is if you want to be able to run at 15kph you need to practice running that speed or just a little bit faster - spending 10s at 20kph isn't actually doing you a lot of good. The key thing being your comment about being able to hold 15kph for a few minutes but having to then slow to recover - well try doing just that, but repeating! What you really need to do is determine your pace by measuring out a fixed distance, something around 500m would be good. Then first time out aim to run this 5 times at 15kph, gradually increasing the number of reps, and maybe increasing the speed you're running them to 16kph. As a mix have a ~200m course and a ~800m course as well. You don't want to have too much recovery on this either - say half the time you're running - so unless you make a circular course you'll need to run it in both directions. You might actually find 5x500m at 15kph fairly easy, but that doesn't matter - you don't have to throw up at the end for it to do you good.

Of course there are many other types of intervals, and it is worth doing different things (sprints with long recovery have their place), but threshold intervals like that are far more effective than anything else.

Oh, and if you really do get better the longer you're out, then just do a (shorter than normal) steady run before doing the intervals as a warm up. Then again I always feel like that too, but if I actually look at the times I do, I do always go quicker for less effort at the start of an interval session when fresh than I do later on in the session, or after I've "warmed up" for a long period first, so you should be wary of your own perceptions.

Posted 2 years ago #
chris82 - Member

What's your weekly mileage at the moment, and how long have you've been running?

The first thing I did to improve my 10k time was to increase my weekly mileage quite dramatically and throw in a few more long runs (10+ miles). I'm now running about 35-40 miles a week and have seen my 10k run times drop (PB 43.12).

Like mogrim has said, and as I've realised, if you want to go sub 40 min then your going to need to get a plan, and allow 8-12 weeks on top of a good existing mileage base to build your speed.

Good luck!!

Posted 2 years ago #
mogrim - Member

Thinking about it, the quickest way to get your PB down is to find a flatter race

Posted 2 years ago #
stumpy01 - Member

I've not run for a long time, but......

During the track season we would do 60-100m sprint intervals for middle distance events, as well as intervals up to 400m.

Come the XC season when the distances would get longer, we would do 400m as a minimum for an interval session, going up to getting on for the best part of a mile. I struggle to remember exactly, but I seem to remember doing a loop in our lunch hour at school - it used to take about 6 mins, with a fairly long recovery - can't remember, but it was probably 3-4 mins.
We also used to go up to a local hilly bit of woodland and do a loop that consisted of a 2 min gradual downhill - along the bottom of the hill for perhaps another minute and then a steep climb back out that took about a minute - we'd do 6 laps of that without stopping, using the downhill as a recovery.

Posted 2 years ago #
aracer - Member

In case it helps, it is possible to go <40 without a proper formal plan. I've certainly gone far enough under 40 without ever in my life following a formal plan that even allowing for the gender difference it should be possible for you. However saying I didn't have a formal plan just means I never sat down and wrote down my sessions weeks in advance - I've always had an informal idea in my mind of what I was doing, and gone out and done the sessions, it's just that I often only decided what I was doing in the morning depending on how I felt (I don't suppose going <40 last year without any structured training or intervals at all really counts, as I was relying on years and years of doing it properly before that, and was several minutes off my PB).

p.s. you've not actually told us where you're starting from with a 10k time.

Posted 2 years ago #
Jamie - Member

I did my first 10k last Sunday, the great yorkshire one, and got a time of 44:17. So obviously i now want to try and get sub 40. Got a place in the Percy Pud 10K hopefully so like you OP i am trying to find a 'less regimented' way of improving my times.

Think i might give the run less and often idea a go as over the last few weeks been doing a 26m, a 13m and maybe a few 7ms. Took up alot of time tho, about 3:45 for 26m. So just going to try and do 7-10m every morning before work 5 days a week with a few fartlek moments thrown in and then rest weekends, well bike, and see what occurs.

Posted 2 years ago #
aracer - Member

Something else has occurred to me - that's a stupidly high HR you're running. I don't know how old you are, but even when I was under 30 I was doing most of my running with HR <150. The thing is if you don't ever learn to run with a lower HR you won't be able to do it - by training myself to do that I can nowadays do a steady pace with HR under 140, whereas when I first started running I couldn't run at all without my HR going up to 160 or so. So what you're not doing is running slowly enough!

I appreciate it will be a struggle - I know it was for me when I taight myself this - but you need to go out and try running with a lower HR. It will feel horribly slow, but persevere for a while and you'll gradually find that your pace increases at the lower HR until you eventually get back to the pace you could only manage before at the higher HR. At that point you've bought yourself some HR margin to run faster!

Posted 2 years ago #
tails - Member

I'll probably get shouted at but have you thought about going on a tread mill looking at your running style in the mirrors, you wanna keep upper body movement to a minimum on long distance runs. Also you can more thoroughly regulate your pace. negatives being its easier on a tread mill so you may be able to do it on there and not on the track, some people find it to boring. Anyway sub 40 is very fast.

Posted 2 years ago #
dirtygirlonabike - Member

Thanks for the replies. To answer some questions, I've been running on and off for a few years, but have been running steadily since May. I run 2-3 times a week (depends how much I'm riding) I realise this isn't enough for race training but I'm not racing, just wondering how to increase my pace, plus I'm also mtb'ing/road riding/spinning/weights.

I run between 45mins and 1hr 15mins. The most I've ran so far has been 15k, and I felt fine with that. Every now and then I do sprint/intervals, usually on the treadmill - 15kph for 2 mins, 1 min recovery x 8. I've started to do this outside too, and occassionally do hill reps.

I can stick to a plan, but I over trained (on the road bike) in April, and I still hate road riding. I learnt a lot from that, but I'm less willing to stick to a plan in case I end up down the same route. Im trying to listen to my body instead.

As for my perceptions of how I feel - I've timed hill reps and my times drop the more I do. What I've been doing so far has helped my pace (in May when I started I was running at 10kph, and with my unstructured/informal/not really knowing what I'm doing training I'm now 2-3kph faster, plus able to run at 15kph for a while)

So I guess more running would help. How often should I be doing sprints/fartlek? I can't fit in more than 3 runs a week, as I want to keep the rest for riding. So maybe something like one longer steady run, one shorter faster paced, and one interval/sprint/fartlek?

Aracer - yes, I know it’s a stupid high hr, but I can't bring it down! It drops really quickly when I stop - my max is 201 (but that's as high as I've reached running, if I did a test, it might be higher) and I'm 29. I was wondering if in time it would decrease - when I started road riding, my hr was pretty high (av 170s, but is now usually 150-160). However, although my resting hr is low, it doesn't take much for it to shoot up, so we're probably talking walking pace to get it to something reasonable which isn't really what I want.

Posted 2 years ago #
nosemineb - Member

In a good week i will do a speed work session with the club, And possibly a long steady run at the weekend or a 10k race or something. I usually go out pretty fast for a 10k certainly not doing a negative split then i know when i finish i have given it everything. Ideally the same week would have a quickish club run also, just running however i feel, depending on who is there to race up the hills against or how tired i am.
I also do 150 mile/week commute by bike.
My new pb is sub 40 for a man its pretty good for a woman this is excellent and in most local races in yorkshire you would be battling for 1st woman.
I dont remember seeing if your in a club but the support they would give you will help.
Good luck.

Posted 2 years ago #
clubber - Member

You can't do much about your HRs - some people are naturally higher, some lower. As you get fitter, you'll be able to do a fixed pace at a lower HR but fundamentally running at a fixed effort will produce a HR that your body/genetics dictates (there is some variation but fundamentally it's true).

Aracer - you say that you're usually under 150 for running and that DGOAB's numbers seem high. Conversely, if I do any effort beyond very easy, my HR goes up above 150 and I could maitain an HR of 165-180 for a long time but then my max is about 192 (highest I've ever got) and my threshold (tested with proper gas analysis equipment) is around 183 - unusual to have such a narrow gap between threshold and max but there you go. Incidentally, I also have a good sprint which shows that having a small difference between threshold and max isn't what defines your sprint. DGOAB - you probably just need to focus more on your sprint trainng or if that's not working, maybe you just don't have a sprint. Some people don't...

All the information you'll find about zones and HR percentages are based on average population. Plenty of people fall either side of those curves and have significantly different HRs for a given zone.

Posted 2 years ago #
surfer - Member

I think i agree with most of what Aracer said.
To run under 40 mins (as a female!) you will need to

a: Run more frequently
b: Run your runs (or at least some of them) faster
c: Run intervals at least once a week

Or variations on the above.
Sticking to a plan can be difficult however if your desire is to run this fast then you need to commit more. If this takes all the fun out of it for you then you cant have it both ways unfortunately!
There are runners who can run 35 mins off the training you are doing however they are the exception and as with most things you get out what you put in.

Posted 2 years ago #
Keva - Member

I can run 10k in about 42-43min, that's undualting xc, not flat road. I've never followed a training programme for anything in my life, just go out and do it. I do vary my running though, add sprints in now and again, then run slow for a bit, then sprint again and so on. I also make sure I do a big hill climb run once in a while - there's a big hill nr where I live with a triangulation point at about 250m which is stupidly steep that I run up (just), several times round the top and then back down again. I do the odd PT session now and again as well which includes short sprints, burpees, squat thrusts, press ups, V-sits and all sorts of body conditioning exercises that I can think of. At the moment I have my distance up to 8-9 miles and am looking at doing a half marathon in the near future. I know you said you didn't want to follow a programme but just a quick glance at this which I found the other day might give you an idea of how to go about getting a bit quicker -

http://www.fitfaqs.co.uk/_media/intermediate%2010km%20training%20plan.pdf

since you can already run 10k look from week 6 or 7 onwards and get an idea of how a training programme includes sprints and things.

There is a similar programme for the half marathon which I looked at last night, I should be able to get from 8 miles up to 13.1 miles in 4-5 weeks if I do a similar thing. I probably won't follow it rigidly but it gives an idea of what to include each week leading up to the race.

Kev

Posted 2 years ago #
aracer - Member

What I'm saying is that when I started running - and even when I'd been running for a few years, and had got reasonably quick (sub 40 minute 10k if we're using that as a yardstick), I ran at the same sort of highish HRs other people are - typically 160 to 170. I literally couldn't run at all with my HR as low as 150. What I did was a very slow long term thing - took several months of running slower than I was used to to keep the HR down, and get my body used to running at lower HRs, which it gradually got better at until my speed was back to where it had been before, but at a lower HR. I believe this is a process which is possible for everybody - you might not get as low as me (that's the product of 15 years of large volumes of steady training), but you can get lower than you currently are. The difficult thing is starting off going much slower than you can. If you're 2-3kph faster now than when you started, then unless you've got a very funny HR response you can run at a lower HR (I'm not suggesting <150, though <160 might be a good target for you) by just dropping your speed back to what it was then. Try it!

DGOAB - the treadmill interval session you're doing actually looks much like I was suggesting - on the contrary to my earlier advice, you may actually need to try going a bit faster on them (if necessary take more rest). Also try mixing it up a bit with 1 minute on, 30s on or 4 mins on 2 mins off (or pyramids, etc.) The main thing though if you've only been going since May and already improved lots is to keep going - it takes time to get there. Just keep steadily doing the training and you'll improve.

p.s. it's an interesting topic for me right now, as due to injury I've got the lowest base for running speed I've had since I started running seriously 17 or so years ago. Useful for me to think about what I need to do to get the speed back (have quickly come to the conclusion that slow plodding isn't even that useful from the perspective of recovering from an injury).

Posted 2 years ago #
brooess - Member

I took my 10k PB from 42 to sub-40 by joining a running club who ran track sessions.

benefits
No need to build your own plan - you turn up and they coach you as a group
No need to find the discipline - just turn up at the right time each week
Easier to push yourself - just use the group effort and your natural competitiveness and you'll put in way more effort than you would on your own
Get talking to other runners and gather ideas from them (much as you can here, but more detailed conversations)
Run in club colours when you race - you want to represent them so it's a motivation to run well on the day + you'll get more people shouting for you

Also I always run faster in a race than I would on my own - natural desire to achieve. So maybe run a few races over a few months, aiming to reach a certain target time each race - getting faster each time and making a progression to your target sub 40

Posted 2 years ago #
finbar - Member

Wow, only me that doesn't advocate intervals then. Build a base. Intervals are something to introduce to training when you feel you've improved as much you can off steady mileage and tempo runs.

Then again maybe i just feel that way because i get injured off of >race pace training.

Posted 2 years ago #
surfer - Member

HR is a person specific thing. It is about individual window from resting HR to Max HR.

My resting HR when I was at my fittest was around 41 bpm. My max was 175.

I trained at various points in this range (none lower than around 125)
Notably I could run around 5:15 min milling and my HR was only touching around 155 - 160.
This is only useful information for me it doesnt indicate my fitness or performance!

Posted 2 years ago #
surfer - Member

Wow, only me that doesn't like intervals then. Build a base. Intervals are something to introduce to training when you feel you've improved as much you can off steady mileage and tempo runs.

Most runners dislike intervals because steady running is always easier and more enjoyable.
They are proven to be the quickest way to improve.
If you just run "steady" then you will improve quickly for a short period then only improve marginally after that or not at all.
Intervals at a reduced intensity can commence very early in a training schedule then increased in intensity and reduced rest.

Posted 2 years ago #
aracer - Member

HR is a person specific thing. It is about individual window from resting HR to Max HR.

It is, but people here are talking about running at HRs which are pretty high even given the normal range. All I'm saying is that for a lot of people it is possible to lower your steady state HR, simply by running slower (doesn't preclude doing some fast stuff, but you have to do most of your running slower and lower HR, hence something to do in the off season if you have one).

Posted 2 years ago #
cxi - Member

Very interesting thread.

I'm trying to break 50 minutes for the 10k. I'm under 25 minutes for 5k so there's a bit of light in the tunnel. I'm averaging about 40miles a month this year.

I think doing some very steady runs at 10 min/mile pace has helped reduce my HRM but sustaining 5:20 to 5:00 min/km pace usually has me around 170bpm.

Posted 2 years ago #
emac65 - Member

You could try the "commando workout" by Simon Waterson.Twice a week for a month or so,it only takes 30 minutes...

5 min warm-up - walk/slow jog
2.5 mins - effort 6/10
2.5 " - " " 7/10
2.5 " - " " 8/10
2.5 " - " " 9/10
2.5 " - " " 8/10
2.5 " - " " 7/10
2.5 " - " " 6/10
5 mins warm down @ 3/10

Did the above a few years back.it's simple & it works,oh & it doesn't take too long either.I used to do a longer run at a normal pace at the weekend as well....

Posted 2 years ago #
surfer - Member

5 min warm-up - walk/slow jog
2.5 mins - effort 6/10
2.5 " - " " 7/10
2.5 " - " " 8/10
2.5 " - " " 9/10
2.5 " - " " 8/10
2.5 " - " " 7/10
2.5 " - " " 6/10
5 mins warm down @ 3/10

Basically interval training with better marketing. It will work however as all faster paced running with short recoveries does.
Emil Zatopek won the Olympic 5000m, 10000m and Marathon at the same games using almost only interval training. His diary seldom had a steady/long run and he had never run a marathon previously.
Every day went along the lines of am 20 x 400. pm 40 x 400 etc.
People (myself included) choose steady runs because interval training hurts.

Posted 2 years ago #
clubber - Member

aracer - your experience of dropping your running HR sounds amazingly similar to what happens as you get fitter - ie run at the same pace at a lower HR...

Posted 2 years ago #
aracer - Member

I think you're missing the point - when I'm unfit as I am now I can still run slowly at lower HR than I could ever manage to run at all before I trained myself to do this, despite the fact that my race speed is slower than it was then. There's more to it than fitness.

Posted 2 years ago #
surfer - Member

Aracer I may be misunderstanding you however my understanding of HR training is that window I mentioned above remains relatively unchanged.
For example my max of 175 never moved (give or take a couple of beats) through my running career.
As my fitness and efficiency improved I was able to run for longer periods closer to that 175 figure as well as run at greater speeds at lower HR values, again due to efficiency. The higher and lower boundaries move little with training as i understand it.
edit: Not strictly true, i found my resting rate reduced by around 10 beats.

Posted 2 years ago #
dirtygirlonabike - Member

Aracer, I do agree with what you are saying, I'm just not sure I want to do it as I guess I'd feel I was going backwards when I feel I'm getting better... It took around 2 years of road riding to get my av hr much lower, including 20hours ish a week at the start of the reason, and I don't know how that timescale would relate to running (mainly running is shorter and more intensive so likely to have a higher hr, whereas riding is longer/endurance with lower hr but if I race a shorter distance, my hr will be the same as a steady run) I think its hr that might be the issue - was thinking about this during my run at lunch going up a very long hill. I know I'm progressing and the fact my hr is the same now when I'm faster, but there's only around 20 beats to my max if I decide to push it going up hill. For what its worth, at 180odd, I feel pretty comfortable and can hold a normal conversation. I do worry a bit though that this is too much/intensive to put my body through for an hour, but if I feel comfortable with it...

Could it be that i just need to get used to running at a higher hr than riding and when i do, i will be able to run faster? (and does this mean i will be super fit on the bike ;-D )

Suspect during winter I will do more interval/treadmill stuff due to weather so that might help. I'm also aiming for a 1/2 marathon spring time ish next year.

Posted 2 years ago #
oldgit - Member

I did two non scientific things that did improve my times drastically.
I reduced two of my weekely sessions and concentrated on stride and body position. And I used the gym for leg work.
I was hovering around 43.7 ish and went straight to 40.86 for the 10. The improvements were only slight after that first 40.

Posted 2 years ago #
keavo - Member

i think you a reading too much into your heart rate. as others have said its a thing that varies between individuals and yours is not stupidly high. for example i used to hold around 185-190 for most of a 25mtt (max was 204). thats higher than most, but so what, its not stupid. i knew it was normal for me, if i was going well. if i wasn't going well i couldn't hold it at that level.
i find a 10k to be similar level of (cardio) effort to short tt (assuming both are done flat out/race), except it also batters your joints and left me sore for longer. i have read that max hr running is usually i little higher than cycling. i think having cycled more than i've ran competitively i tend to be able to get a little bit more out of myself on the bike.

Posted 2 years ago #
ChrisF - Member

On a more general point, a 40 min 10k time for a woman is pretty good - a lot of fairly serious club runners would be aiming at that sort of time. Unless you have a certain amount of talent/natural ability, you'll need to do some specific training to hit that mark. Running three times a week, unstructured sessions is not likely to get you there.

My experience of racing 10ks (generally around the 35 min mark, some years ago, when I was a 'proper' runner), is that you need to be doing some overdistance runs (9-12 miles), some tempo or threshold runs (eg 15-30 mins at LT), and some long intervals (800m). One of each of those a week makes 3 runs. To do those effectively and without injuring yourself, you'll need at a background of doing reasonable steady mileage, like 3-6 months of 3-4 runs a week before hitting the harder sessions.

Maybe do a 10k race soon to give you a target and try and trim your pb down gradually?

Posted 2 years ago #