http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/02/firefighter-denies-manslaughter-siren-cows

cows react 'badly' to siren, trample farmer, fireman faces manslaughter charges?

what mind altering and sense-reduction drugs are the CPS on to pursue this one?

Good grief. 😯

Must be more to that story than we are told, i hope so anyway cos if not it ahows what this country has become. Did he put siren on intenionally to cause a problem etc?

I was shocked but then my other half pointed out that just because the guy is a hero it doesn't always follow that he's not a purile and annoying little dick…
I live outside a police station.. they should/could be prosecuted for unneccessary and improper use of their sirens at least 3 times per day..

AIUI the cows were being herded along a narrow road and the fireman put his siren on to get them out the way. Sounds pretty irresponsible.

says the siren may have frightened the cows. was he chasing them round the field at the time, or driving past the field?

i don't doubt that fire related heroes can be dickheads

EDIT – Nicks post sheds the lovely light of illumination – sounds like a purile dick then

CPS will not be prosecuting without good reason

As carbon337 says the fire-fighter might have put his sirens on deliberately to spook the cows off the road. I'll let the courts decide whether he was acting irresponsibly and contributed to the unnecessary death of the elderly farmer.

"Mr Lee's family said at the time of his death that the tragedy could have been avoided if the fire engine had waited a few minutes for the animals to be cleared off the narrow road."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1291490/Firefighter-denies-manslaughter-farmer-trampled-death-cows-spooked-engines-siren.html

they should/could be prosecuted for unneccessary and improper use of their sirens at least 3 times per day

I would think there is a far greater chance that they would be in trouble for the number of times they don't use the sirens when they should!

I don't know any more details on the case above but as has been pointed out in previous threads, the instructions (in my area at least) are lights and sirens must be used at all times when attending an emergency. There is no 'discretionary' turning off eg. at night on quiet roads, passing animals etc.

<edit after reading above> they are, of course only allowed to be used in an emergency.

A fireman has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter after a farmer was trampled to death by a herd of cows which were spooked by his siren.

Harold Lee, 75, was moving 100 dairy cows along a B-road with son Richard when a fire engine approached with full lights and sirens on.

Richard, 42, claims the driver turned off the sirens at his request but became impatient when the cows failed to move quickly and then blasted them back on.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254806/Firefighter-arrested-farmer-killed-stampeding-cows-spooked-siren-lights.html

There is no 'discretionary' turning off

ah well.. there you go.. learn something new every day..
HOWEVER.. the ice-cream van that insists on playing his chimes at 8pm most evenings.. just after the kids have been settled down to sleep.. might find himself the subject of a lynch mob before the end of the summer..

How can we draw conclusions from such short text? Papers really are pricks sometimes. By missing out information they know it'll draw attention and in the future readers will be drawn to their site due to 'interest in previous posting etc'.

There is no 'discretionary' turning off

"Devon and Somerset Fire Service said the tender had been responding to an emergency callout following a road accident.

It is up to the driver of a fire tender to determine whether the siren and lights are activated."

Hmm tricky one, if they were responding to an emergency then you don't want them waiting an age for cows. If it had been a non emergency just impatience throw the book at him but from the sounds of the above it's a dodgy situation alright.

what mind altering and sense-reduction drugs are the CPS on to pursue this one?

Well, what facts do you know about the case before you jumped to that conclusion? Why is your immediate assumption to post up a thread accusing the CPS of incompetence instead of, say, using google to find out more about the story?

I was reading a coppers' forum while I was looking for something else a couple of months ago and the version that was circulating there (***which I don't know is accurate or not***) was: fire engine has sirens on, driving down country lane; meets herd of cows; driver turns sirens off as farmer tries to herd them out the way; driver gets pissed off that cows aren't moving quickly enough and turns the sirens back on to scare them off; cows stampede, farmer is trampled.

If that is a broadly accurate retelling (and it's probably not that accurate, seeing as it's third or fourth hand already), then I assume he has been charged with Manslaughter on the basis of gross negligence.

In R v Bateman 1925 Cr. App R. 8 the Court of Criminal Appeal held that gross negligence manslaughter involved the following elements:
– the defendant owed a duty to the deceased to take care;
– the defendant breached this duty;
– the breach caused the death of the deceased; and
– the defendant's negligence was gross, that is, it showed such a disregard for the life and safety of others as to amount to a crime and deserve punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_in_English_law#Manslaughter_by_gross_negligence

EDIT – Nicks post sheds the lovely light of illumination – sounds like a purile dick then

didn't you see that bit?

yeah, I did – it just underscored that instead of using your google-fu for a few seconds to understand something that appeared unusual, your first instinct was to fire up STW and wail about "sense-reduced" Crown prosecutors before other people filled you in on things you could have discovered for yourself.

yeah it would be such a great forum if everyone, including you, did some exhaustive research before posting….

I have no sympathy for the fireman.

But there again, my single-glazed bedroom window overlooks traffic lights on a main road, so we get sirens bursting into action (no gentle build up first) all times of night.

: fire engine has sirens on, driving down country lane; meets herd of cows; driver turns sirens off as farmer tries to herd them out the way; driver gets pissed off that cows aren't moving quickly enough and turns the sirens back on to scare them off; cows stampede, farmer is trampled.

That's what we were told at work.

so we get sirens bursting into action (no gentle build up first) all times of night.

<jeepers>
What would you like a pre alarm or a text prior to the appliance going out????

Get some double glazing fitted.

Devon and Somerset Fire Service said…..It is up to the driver of a fire tender to determine whether the siren and lights are activated

Awful as this is for all concerned, the case will hopefully bring about a definitive national ruling, as drivers of emergency vehicles are currently in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

I have no sympathy for the fireman…..But there again, my single-glazed bedroom window overlooks traffic lights on a main road

That post has to get the ..nt of the week award.

the case will hopefully bring about a definitive national ruling

What, like "don't use your sirens if the only intention is to spook animals which a farmer is attempting to control" ?

I would like to think that I can expect fire-fighters to use common-sense, make sensible individual judgements, and make a reasonable assessment of the risks involved in whatever action they take. If they can't do that, then I can't help feeling that they are probably in the wrong job.

Clearly the only purpose of sirens is to warn other road users of possible dangers associated with a vehicle on an emergency call. Whilst that might work well in urban areas, I am not convinced that horses and cows for example, possess the necessary intellectual skills to understand that concept. So sirens are probably not the best solution when dealing with horse riders and drovers.

Is this thread for real? Do you lot think Judges receive two paragraphs from the CPS and then decide to prosecute and burn someone based on a short summary of the actual event?

This is old news locally it happened near me.Many emergency vehicles dont use the blues and twos when they should and this seems like a difficult case to call .The fire engine obviously needs to get there quickly but if it spooks animals into going mad and killing a guy then it has still cost a life

even if it was a narrow road and they needed to pass in a life or death situation they could have moved slowly folward even cows know to get out of the way of something bigger than them, seems a little bit of red mist may have clouded the drivers thoughts and now we have another wasted life for which he may pay dearly for feel sorry for all conserned

I would think there is a far greater chance that they would be in trouble for the number of times they don't use the sirens when they should!

Exactly! I obviously don't know a lot about this case but it sounds to be like a fireman in a hurry to go and save the lives of others (an rightly so), so in an effort to get through quickly used his sirens. Even if he knew it would scare the cows there was no way he could have predicted that his actions would have led to the farmer getting trampled. Yes in hindsight,perhaps he could have done something different to get passed but in the situation he needed to make a quick decision.

Its very unfortunate that a man died, my condolences go to all who knew the farmer, but I don't think prosecution is the way forward.

Do you lot think Judges receive two paragraphs from the CPS and then decide to prosecute and burn someone based on a short summary of the actual event

yes

This cropped up a few weeks back.

Anyway if the story is true that the Fireman who switched sires grew impatient it's disgraceful. All you do is wait they farmer/s will move them in time.

Woody feel free to quote me on this, my advice is your passing an area where you know there's likely yo be horses on the road, animals being herded be cautious. If they're on the road, a horse with it's rider or any large animal with people near them and you spot them switch them off and slow down. The CPS will listen to that story better than you can argue that management insisted on it, the memos are worded carefully.

We pass several riding schools on the way to Wooler on being a pretty big school these days, I switch them off when near them. I'll gladly argue the reason for doing rather that than have someone hurt or killed because of a memo.

Ernie I know it's your style but don't be so flippant these memos exist because a young female was killed in the earlier hours of the morning by a Police car that had no sirens or blue lights on. They seem to have ignored the fact he was doing 90mph on 30 zone though.

Even if he knew it would scare the cows there was no way he could have predicted that his actions would have led to the farmer getting trampled. Yes in hindsight,perhaps he could have done something different to get passed but in the situation he needed to make a quick decision.

You cannot seriously believe that, surely. It's not uncommon for people to be trampled to death crossing fields with cattle and calves if they have a dog. A cow weighs around a ton, just exactly what sort of chance do you think a man in his 70's would have in the path of a hundred tons of spooked cattle?

As an aside the the fireman would have been far more successful and safe if they had simply bumped the cattle out of the way.

why has no-one considered prosecuting the cattle involved..? is this a case of diminished responsibility..?

'it wasn't me M'lud.. I was pushed from behind… everyone was acting real crazy..'

@countzero yes its easy for a cow to trample a person, but the cows could have gone in any direction, its just unfortunate that the farmer was in their way

If the fireman 'bumped' the cow he'd be charged with sexual attack on the under-age person, wouldn't he? Not many cows are 18+ y.o.

I think there's something gone a bit wrong with human evolution, myself, we've reached a point where we see something that seems ridiculous and unbelievable and instantly think the worst possible answer must be the correct one instead of thinking "That seems ridiculous and unbelievable". It's not just singletrack, though of course we're brilliant at it 😉

"becky_kirk43 – Member

@countzero yes its easy for a cow to trample a person, but the cows could have gone in any direction"

You know it was on a country road?

well, there's no point hurrying to a fire sirens blaring if you kill someone on the way – was there a fire ?

@countzero yes its easy for a cow to trample a person, but the cows could have gone in any direction, its just unfortunate that the farmer was in their way

Yeah …… I think we going down to road of passing a verdict without actually hearing any evidence. It's probably best left to the courts to decide eh ? And whether there should have been any prosecution in the first place to the CPS ?

No SFB, they weren't going to a fire – to a RTA I believe. Although presumably they never got there.

Drac – I know what you are saying m8 and I'm not going to discuss it on an open forum 😉 other than to say the instruction came out after a joint meeting between police, fire and ambulance and was quite unequivocal in that there were no exceptions.

Sometimes the powers that be do not consider the implications of these things. They do however make sure their own arses are very well covered!

You cannot seriously believe that, surely. It's not uncommon for people to be trampled to death crossing fields with cattle and calves if they have a dog.

it is uncommon, actually. yes it happens, very rarely. not often. it's not common.

thus, uncommon.

"I have no sympathy for the fireman.

But there again, my single-glazed bedroom window overlooks traffic lights on a main road, so we get sirens bursting into action (no gentle build up first) all times of night."

I have no sympathy for you, for getting a place with single glazing next to traffic lights on a main road 🙂