The leave side haven’t a scooby how to go forward, there needs to be manifestos put forward that the people can vote for.

After all I thought this was all about democracy?

How is handing over the future of the country to 100 or so tories democratic?

Plus it’ll keep the Scottish question a bit tidier. But surely the English and Welsh must be screaming for their democracy over this question?

need 66% of MP’s and tories are not going to support it whilst they dont have a leader/PM

Wont happen so a pointless discussion.

Pretty easy to build up pressure on a party in disarray.

Plus as I said there’s the democratic principle at stake here. They can’t now deny that.

After all I thought this was all about democracy?

Sucker.

b r – Member
After all I thought this was all about democracy?

Sucker.
Me? nope I voted in…But you’d expect once the outers have stopped playing with their union flags and reminiscing about ration books they’d maybe have a moment of clarity.

It’s not going to happen for the reasons given by JY, but it would be interesting if it did. Could the Labour party campaign on a platform of ignoring the referendum?

won’t happen if people just go, oh it won’t happen..

Pretty easy to build up pressure on a party in disarray.

Which party is this?

If any party campaigned on an IN ticket and got a majority where would that leave us? Divided, undemocratic and probably in a weaker position with the EU than we were. I fear the cat is out of the bag and isn’t easy to get back in, or to be sure whose curtains it’s going to ruin next.

you’re right none of this will happen because i pointed out the facts to you 🙄

aye cause there’s “facts” right now, that’s what all this is predicted on, and you’re the oracle of fact. 😆 right ye are…

You know how democracy is supposed to work, those at the top are supposed to bend to the people’s will.

Which is why we have capital punishment – oh hang on…

If any party campaigned on an IN ticket and got a majority where would that leave us?

No party will campaign on an IN ticket, the option whether or not to remain in the EU no longer exists.

Could the Labour party campaign on a platform of ignoring the referendum?

The referendum is no longer an issue. Our relationship with the EU, and the rest of the world, is.

EDIT : Sorry aracer I’ve just realised that I misread what you meant – you meant ignoring the referendum result. I thought you were suggesting that they had ignored the referendum, an accusation leveled at Corbyn.

Well no, they can’t ignore the referendum result.

aracer – Member
Which is why we have capital punishment – oh hang on.

I thought this was a brave new world? Are youse really just going to sit back and allow yourselves to be shafted?

fyi, support for death penalty is below 50%.

I explained what is required for a general election and why it wont happen – you can negate this fact or shoot the messenger because you dont like the fact the choice is yours

Yes I understand democracy and i think the peoples will was to leave. Just because I dont like this i dont think its reasonable or democratic to claim it meant something else.

YMMV and best of luck in your campaign.

no you explained why you think it won’t happen, not why it won’t happen.

It won’t happen if people just sit back and watch it all unfold.

The 66% is easily achievable.

Dunno if you noticed but the scottish campaign is well under way, I’m actually quite worried about england and wales, youse need to get off your arses.

No party will campaign on an IN ticket, the option whether or not to remain in the EU no longer exists.

I read that the Lib Dems policy is to rejoin the EU.

Well in that case I wsih you the best of luck persuading the party in power, in disarray, with no leader to vote itself out of power and have an election.

They’ll have a leader soon enough. But you crack on, sit back and enjoy the tory carve up.

Liam Fox saying Article 50 need not be triggered and calls for ‘period of calm’. Smacks of regret.

I’ve never voted Labour but if they did stand on an IN ticket I would vote for them. Or any other pro-EU party. Article 49 permits countries to rejoin EU.

I read that the Lib Dems policy is to rejoin the EU.

Well they’ve found something to keep themselves busy for the next few decades on the fringes of politics. That’s nice, it gives them a reason to exist.

Cameron has played a blinder by resigning before enacting article 50. Who is willing to take on his job and “captain” the UK through what lies ahead? It’s not going to be pretty untangling ourselves from the EU, the question is, just how painful will it actually be? No one can come out of that process looking good.

^ this,

That is probably why BoJo and Pob looked so glum at their “victory” conference yesterday

pinched from fb :

From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

That’s nice for Cameron that he’s artfully cleaned the bogs of the Titanic. V impressive. I’d forgot for a second that he’s written himself into history alongside Anthony Eden and Lord North as one of the worst blundering PMs of all time – but it’s good to see some skillful manoeuvring against his rivals.

Nope. Election in 2020. As per above zero chance of Tories having a vote of no confidence.

In any case the Referendum was won for Leave in the Labour heartlands, the decision was truely cross party

That’s nice for Cameron that he’s artfully cleaned the bogs of the Titanic.

Thanks for giving me my first actual laugh about this whole disgraceful mess with that analogy.

😀

Back OT: Can’t see either of the main parties wanting an election anytime soon. They’re both in a right old state ATM.

Jamba – you’re sometimes completely nuts in your views, but you’re not an idiot. Talk me though that Guardian piece from a Mail/Telegraph point of view. I wouldn’t want to be the PM who calls A50 (because it will be a messy poison chalice), would you?

saved

Am I being unfair? Over complimentary?

Reportedly bojo has said should/when he becomes leader he will have a general election to validate his mandate. I guess he may want to negotiate some concessions before this with the EU to avoid triggering a50 or a coalition government may have the same effect

jambalaya – Member
Nope. Election in 2020. As per above zero chance of Tories having a vote of no confidence.

In any case the Referendum was won for Leave in the Labour heartlands, the decision was truely cross party
I’m not talking about having a GE to re run the referendum(put in a 50% clause if a party runs on scrapping the result if you like), I’m talking about having a GE so that the parties can put forward their manifesto for taking us out/independence/irish unification.

This out vote has opened pandoras box, and the people have not voted for a way forward. The debate was an utter joke in that respect.

We need some democracy.

There is nothing in the tory manifesto about how to leave europe, they have no mandate to do as they please.

We need some democracy.

we do, its just the remain voters don’t seem to want to acknowledge it lol

Indeed it would be easy to argue that we should have the right to decide who leads us out of Europe and conducts the negotiations. Having a hardline out PM/government would give a very different result to a previously Remain PM/government.

But do you trust the electorate to make this decision…

Jamba – you’re sometimes completely nuts in your views, but you’re not an idiot. Talk me though that Guardian piece from a Mail/Telegraph point of view.

I can’t find the original article on the Guardian website (all google searches of the article take me to social media sites) so I don’t know who the author is.

But I did find another article in the Guardian which complete contradicts the claims made in that article.

So not from a Mail/Telegraph point of view but from another Guardian point of view :

In his resignation speech, David Cameron made it clear he was in no hurry to push the button. “A negotiation with the European Union will need to begin under a new prime minister and I think it is right that this new prime minister take the decision about when to trigger article 50 and start the formal and legal process of leaving the EU,” he said.

As such, he has done a favour for the people who did most to unseat him – Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. Both have argued there should be no hurry to pull the trigger: doing so would set the clock ticking, putting Britain at a negotiation disadvantage at a time when its political class is in disarray.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/article-50-brexit-debate-britain-eu

The article also points out :

The process is designed to give the EU the upper hand over the departing state, according to Andrew Duff, a former Liberal Democrat MEP, who helped devise article 50. “We could not allow a seceding state to spin things out for too long. The clause puts most of the cards in the hands of those that stay in.”

So the EU can do absolutely nothing to kick out a member state which hasn’t fallen foul of article 7.

Delaying triggering Article 50 makes sense as not doing so puts the UK at an disadvantage and it also puts most of the cards in the hands of the EU.

According to the Guardian.

And btw claiming that Johnson didn’t really want the referendum to go in his favour is nonsense. The fact that it has done so gives him a huge advantage in his ambitions to become Tory Party leader, which after all was the main reason why he chose to be the self-appointed leader of the Leavers (although personally I think he will fail).

Had it not gone in his favour he would have had to kiss goodbye to his leadership ambitions. As the previous article states, “When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act”.

how delaying is democratic ?

people have voted to leave the EU .

So do you want the tories to go WTO, EFTA, negotiate something different. Will you accept free movement, shengen? How will the independent government fill the EU funding gap now, will it continue this or will all that funding just dissappear down a black hole? + a billion other questions that are way beyond me.

People have voted leave there is nothing about the method of leave, and there’s zero about that in the tory manifesto. They have no mandate to begin negotiations.

Did they vote for when?

Yes everyone thought we would be out of the EU by Monday.