[Closed] The (e-)apocalypse is nigh!

Friends don't let friends ebike 😉

🙂 the polarisation begins 🙂

no different to going out on a moped and getting a bunch of roadie KoM's.

Using a motor of some sort makes you go faster.

I hope someone has let the Prime Minister know.

I'm in my forties. If I had a heart attack in the next 5 years or so (God forbid) I would still want to get out in the woods on my bike. I would be in the market for an ebike then.
I think for rehab after illness or injury it sounds like a good idea.

I do not want one at the moment though. All that money spent on weighty electronics could go on good kit.

He'll put a tax on it if you do 😉

Of course it goes faster but until fairly recently e-bikes were so heavy or cumbersome that they really weren't going to be any use off road. That seems to be changing right about now...

Out on Friday and was overtaken by an overweight gent on a full suz job no way was I able to hang on and Was soon dropped on the climb and I is awesome on a bike.......

My dad keeps telling me that one day I'll get a 'proper' bike and that MTBs are gradually morphing into motorbikes. Looks like he was right on the second count.

As for Strava ethics: if it's got a motor, it doesn't count.

We will undoubtedly stratify cycling along the e-bikers and real-bikers lines.

Cuz that's just human nature!

I think that motor puts out 250W, quite a decent amount of power and more than most folk could sustain for any length of time.

I can imagine it will become popular.

- Needlessly complicated and can be marketed to mugs as some sort of "revolution". Check.
- Expensive and fancy looking, appealing to folk who want to show off. Check.
- Appeals to the fat and lazy. Check.

I have no issue with people riding them but they are already split in my mind. If you've got a motor your not cycling - by all means give a go if you are not hurting anyone but they won't be allowed in races. If people use them to get strava KOMs then I imagine they'll get flagged if they are ridiculous - it isn't in the spirit of the site and you may as well be riding a motorbike or driving a car as you've introduced an engine, all be it a small one.

- Needlessly complicated

Is it? It seems to do exactly the job it's intended for.

Expensive and fancy looking

Same as pretty much any new bike, isn't that?

The third, well, maybe 😉

Yes, it is.

No not really.

OK, here's my scenario. One that I can't really see myself taking up for now but who knows longer term...

Classic STWer, kids, work, not enough time or inclination to ride/train as much as he used to but would still like to ride with his mates (who don't have kids... 🙂 ) who are now way faster than him and would get fed up always waiting for him on the climbs and once he's blown up 30 miles in.An ebike would allow him to do that. So it's a social thing.

Didn't see this thread until now so I'll just restate my point that.

Whilst I’m sure they’re a giggle to ride the red sock brigade are going to go three shades of mental when these start appearing regularly.

I can genuinely see these as opening up old access debates all over the place and giving the NIMBY’s a huge stick to beat us with.

E-bikes are a tricky quandry for Strava but that's a sideshow compared to the affect they could have on access.

"Allow mountain-bikes and next thing you'll get motorbikes" is a common line of reasoning I've heard from the anti-MTB crowd, the appearance of E-bikes will mean that they'll finally have something to back this up and you can well believe they'll milk it for all it's worth.

We have one strava KOM on a local hill on a housing estate that equates to over the 30mph speed limit - up a 1 in 5ish hill... I suspect folk have been using motorbikes or car dashboards for a while... 😉

(Have a guess why I don't use or bother with such things!)

As they used to say at school "he's only cheating himself"!

Classic STWer, kids, work, not enough time or inclination to ride/train as much as he used to but would still like to ride with his mates (who don't have kids... ) who are now way faster than him and would get fed up always waiting for him on the climbs and once he's blown up 30 miles in.An ebike would allow him to [s]do that[/s] keep up with a bunch of dicks who may just as well ride by themselves if they're taking that attitude.

Wake up and smell the coffee - They aren't mountain bikes....if you want to ride a trials or MX bike fine, but go and buy a motorbike - an e-bike isn't a bicycle.

I appreciate that some manufacturers will be pushing the press hard, with a glowing vision of bigger sales and a new industry segment, with more and more people taking up MTBing as an e-bike will be seen possibly as being more accessible for unfit fatties, but I find it really disappointing that the MTB media (inc ST) are promoting them, rather than questioning the wisdom of their usage in UK

Why - IMHO they are going to cause significant problems for MTB riders in UK coming years, as walkers and other land users/owners won't tolerate e-bikes in the same way as they do current MTB bikers (barely in some cases).

They have a place, beside Segway hire, at places like centre parks....

I'm sure Mark is a great mtber but I don't believe he's an XC whippet

Your belief system is valid 🙂

I got to work 20 minutes quicker and a lot less sweaty, plus had loads of fun an the way. All the KOMs I got were on climbs. There's no advantage on the DH at all, apart from the extra momentum due to the mahoosive weight - that things steers like a an oil tanker and I'm pretty sure it's going to be expensive in brake pads.

Tonight I'm going home on the road with a few miles of light offroad section. Fastest time on my CX bike is 48mins. Lets see if this enormobike can beat that.

"Allow mountain-bikes and next thing you'll get motorbikes" is a common line of reasoning I've heard from the anti-MTB crowd, the appearance of E-bikes will mean that they'll finally have something to back this up and you can well believe they'll milk it for all it's worth.

more and more interested, now 55 so age not on my side, I used to do (motorbike) green laning but this is now nearly policied out of existence (and is actually a lot more physically demanding than you think), so say a beta alp/serow etc[small really good trail bikes], £2-3k for a decent one and few places to ride with annual costs (ins, tax, depreciation etc) or a few K for for a decenct ebike(and presumably they'll get better/cheaper, for my wants - getting out and enjoying new places and the general countryside exploration and bimbling - looks good to me

The story mentions a video, but I see no link to a video. Anyone got a URL for the vid ?

I got a demo from a bike shop , super cool . The owner was telling me his wife, who had been unwell, was biking with him now on an e bike and loving it.
I used to have a 90 min ride each way to work , which I did very rarely . I used to dream about an engine as I cycles the boring ish bridle way . If I still has that commute , I will prob buy one of these tomorrow..

Go on then ride them round Stanmer at full speed or better still take that fat bike with Clarkson on board down a narrow steep-sided Alpine pass. Age of Stupid.

The story mentions a video, but I see no link to a video. Anyone got a URL for the vid ?

...but if you cannot see it on the news page, maybe Vimeo is blocked, as it's quite hard to miss.

Strongly agree with hatter and skydragon.

Come on ST mag, you need to take a stand against these things not promote them or use them as clickbait.

The mag used to run features on access issues, so I'd have thought you'd be sensitive to the risk they pose.

but I find it really disappointing that the MTB media (inc ST) are promoting them, rather than questioning the wisdom of their usage in UK

Well, we've neither said we like them or we don't so I'm not sure we've been promoting them. We've accepted they exist, which I see as our duty as 'media'. Just out of interest Skydragon, have you ridden one?

I tried to point out in my video, by being out of breath in one clip, that you have to pedal these things and the most surprising part of riding eBikes for me so far is how much like riding a bike they really are. They are still a long long way from being equated to engine powered vehicles. You have to pedal to make them go... like a bike... If you stop pedalling the bike stops... like a bike. If you pedal hard you get out of breath... like a bike.

Arguments as to access issues aside (I think that argument is a much more important one to be having. And we will) an eBike is a bike. It's not a motorbike. If you are a cyclist and you ride one you will still feel like a cyclist. If you are motorcyclist and you ride one... you will feel like a cyclist, and probably be very disappointed.

The access code is already quite clear. It grants a right of responsible access to pretty much anywhere that you'd want to ride your bike, but specifically excludes:

"any form of motorised recreation or passage (except by people with a disability using a vehicle or vessel adapted for their use)"

Seems quite clear to me.

Whilst I'm not a fan, I bet they're a riot powering up climbs.

Except motorised does not include 'pedal assist', which is what an ebike is. So, not so clear really.

I should say, I've never ridden an e-bike, nor a fat-bike - but I'm not against them - but in regards to Strava and competition as a whole it does seem to be a ruthlessly effective package.

Doesn't sound like great fun to me though...

WGAS what effect it has on strava?

Me and probably plenty of other people.

It'll probably end up being self policing. People will flag daft times or the whole thing will fall apart when the premise of KOM and leaderboards becomes meaninless.

Strava is a good site that can add some fun and interest. Claiming KOMs on a e-bike is a bit like a kid being rubbish at football so knicking the ball so no one can play.

chakaping - Member
Strongly agree with hatter and skydragon.

Come on ST mag, you need to take a stand against these things not promote them or use them as clickbait.

The mag used to run features on access issues, so I'd have thought you'd be sensitive to the risk they pose.

Yep, fully agree as well.

Though they do have there place, great for the elderly and not so well. In fact the only ones I've seen off road were on the Long Mynd, being ridden by an elderly couple who told us that it was the only way they could manage to get out doing what they loved doing.

[i]Go on then ride them round Stanmer at full speed [/i]

I've now got my eye on a Big Dog podium in the fat bike class.

Except motorised does not include 'pedal assist', which is what an ebike is. So, not so clear really.

Certain things are classed as a bike (and therefore have the same access rights), other things are not (and therefore don't). The distinction seems to be laid out in great detail in the relevant regulations.

See, e.g:

[url= http://soan.org.uk/2013/04/electric-bikes-and-access-rights/ ]http://soan.org.uk/2013/04/electric-bikes-and-access-rights/[/url]

They look a laugh but I doubt I'd ever buy one though.
Might be ok for commuting on though.

Mark does make some good points about the difference between pedal assist and straight motor driven. I've ridden a couple (commuting type things rather than mtbs but the principle is the same) and they do feel like cycling, just like cycling with a strong tailwind.

Whilst I’m sure they’re a giggle to ride the red sock brigade are going to go three shades of mental when these start appearing regularly.
I can genuinely see these as opening up old access debates all over the place and giving the NIMBY’s a huge stick to beat us with.

E-bikes are a tricky quandry for Strava but that's a sideshow compared to the affect they could have on access.

"Allow mountain-bikes and next thing you'll get motorbikes" is a common line of reasoning I've heard from the anti-MTB crowd, the appearance of E-bikes will mean that they'll finally have something to back this up and you can well believe they'll milk it for all it's worth.

This x 1000.

Whilst I’m sure they’re a giggle to ride the red sock brigade are going to go three shades of mental when these start appearing regularly.
I can genuinely see these as opening up old access debates all over the place and giving the NIMBY’s a huge stick to beat us with.
E-bikes are a tricky quandry for Strava but that's a sideshow compared to the affect they could have on access.

"Allow mountain-bikes and next thing you'll get motorbikes" is a common line of reasoning I've heard from the anti-MTB crowd, the appearance of E-bikes will mean that they'll finally have something to back this up and you can well believe they'll milk it for all it's worth.

Also +1 from me.

I'm just wondering if, just for some context, we could all sign off our posts with...

'I have ridden an ebike'
or
'I have not ridden an ebike'

Maybe IHREB & IHNREB?

Only if you add

IHNREBHANDITDSUAICUM

I have not ridden an ebike and have absolutely no desire or inclination to do so until age and / or illness catch up with me.

Hopefully, these Ebikes will do us all a great service and render Strava obsolete overnight.
That way we can all go back to just riding our bikes for fun and smiles rather than waving our d*cks around because we are 0.0006 sec faster than some other muppet around some arbitrary course on some arbitrary day........

(i've ridden a Ebike, i have never "strava'd" nor will i ever! 😉

FWIW, I agree with this

"Allow mountain-bikes and next thing you'll get motorbikes" is a common line of reasoning I've heard from the anti-MTB crowd, the appearance of E-bikes will mean that they'll finally have something to back this up and you can well believe they'll milk it for all it's worth.

Despite my statement above about the reality of the situation, they'll appear to many as electric motorbikes and there will no doubt be people happy to use that as an excuse to try and ban all bikes. How effective that will be of course will be the key issue but I'm not sure that mtbers have that many friends in high places (compared to say roadies which are increasingly becoming very establishment).

I rode a Scott e bike and thought it was an absolute hoot! I've said it before, if I had a long commute I would consider one as shirley it's still better than taking the car? Also for those whose health limits their exertion they have to be a good thing?

I'm just wondering if, just for some context, we could all sign off our posts with...

'I have ridden an ebike'
or
'I have not ridden an ebike'

Maybe IHREB & IHNREB?

I have ridden e-bikes - not off-road but as demo bikes at shows.
They're an absolute blast, brilliant fun. It's just another dimension to biking. I mean, you can't go out and blat the crap out of everything cos (a) the battery will die after 10 miles and (b) it cuts out at 15mph anyway. The power-assist is pointless downhill.

You know how full-sus opened up technical trails that, 15 years ago, were unthinkable on the bikes that were available then (XC whippet style bikes with long stems / head-down positions)? Or how the modern full-sus allows people to ride for longer, in greater comfort?

Well e-bikes have done the same but for steep and/or technical climbs, they'll allow people to ride further or for longer or on terrain they wouldn't have been able to before.

No different to what a full sus with massive disc brakes has allowed the gravity brigade to do. This is a bike for the anti-gravity brigade!

I don't buy the analogy with improvements to suspensions, brakes etc for going downhill.

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity.

Put one of these bikes in front of Joe Public and they'll still think it's a bicycle, not a motorbike.

I'll be buying one of these when I'm old. I'll be riding right up to being put in a coffin because of that battery and motor. What's wrong with that?

I have ridden one, but only about 100 yards on a fire trail.

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity.

Except that without a human pedalling it, it can't go anywhere... As Mark pointed out, it does still feel like cycling.

Put one of these bikes in front of Joe Public and they'll still think it's a bicycle, not a motorbike.

For now. I reckon that over time that may well change as they become more fine tuned. A bit like motorbikes started out as bikes with an engine bolted on and then evolved.

Friends don't let friends ebike

they do if the ebiker has a fubar ticker.

IHREB

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity.

It is still a human powered activity because the motor is an [b]assist[/b] not an independent motor.

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity

You still need to pedal to go, just less pedal for the same amount of go, it's assist only and not full Wattage all the time, the human is still required and still provides a fair chunk of the power.

Once you get > 16mph there's no assist so 100% human (and in fact worse as you're lugging extra weight)

EDIT - beaten to it

IHREB (though I don't own one and don't intend to until old age/illness requires me to to continue cycling)

So it's human powered, except for the up to 250W of the power input coming from a battery?

any pedal assist ebike is human powered.

Well e-bikes have done the same but for steep and/or technical climbs, they'll allow people to ride further or for longer or on terrain they wouldn't have been able to before.

Setting aside those with chronic health issues, I'm honestly not sure why this is a good thing?

And isn't it like having a sack of spuds on board when you go downhill again anyway?

100% behind them for commuting though!

they do if the ebiker has a fubar ticker.

I'm just struggling to get past the first law of thermodynamics with these things, sort of human powered in the same way as a rowing boat with a motor. which switches off when you stop rowing.

for me personally i find this an interesting genre that i hope evolves into Lighter/better/longer duration. With a dodgy ticker in my chest, i reckon in 5-10 years time, i'll be on one of these just so i can keep riding.
i don't give a stuff about strave and i don't race. what i do like is to ride my bike, so anything that will aid me or others in my situation in later years gets a big thumbs up.

Yes, exactly like that but they're still (partially/mainly) powered by a human.

FWIW, you won't get far at the full 250W (that's the 'turbo' mode) so currently people would typically be getting a much [i]more[/i] modest 'assist' so they're more human powered.

What an ebike does is take your route altitude profile and effectively stretch it out, making the climbs less steep and potentially extending the length of your ride. That's it. The climbs still hurt depending on your fitness - they just hurt less than if you were not on an ebike. On the DH they offer no advantages. On the flats they offer no advantages if you exceed 15mph. If you ride at 15.1mph then it's all you and no motor. The times you really feel it are when you are riding slow.. The faster you go the more it feels like it's you doing the work and not the bike.

I've not ridden an e-bike. Nor will I ever want to. If the day comes I'm not able to ride a push bike on my own, under my own steam then its time to go and find something else to do in my spare time (I've got plenty of stuff I can be getting on with). Sorry but I'm really against them in the same way that a sailor would/should be against other people putting motors on their boats etc. If you want a motor boat, by a motor boat. If you want a bike with a motor, buy a motorbike.

That way we can all go back to just riding our bikes for fun and smiles rather than waving our d*cks around because we are 0.0006 sec faster than some other muppet around some arbitrary course on some arbitrary day........

Rubbish - since discovering Strava last year I love riding with it. Yes, you can do all the 'racing' stuff but I like the analysis of my rides and stuff. I want to improve on a bike and get faster - if I can compare that to times on trails without 30/40 riders all charging down it at the same time to see who is faster, then great.

[img] [/img]

IHNREBHANDITDSUAICUM

The speed restriction thing is balls anyway, there's no technical reason why the assist cuts out. One of the UK online sellers for these things is advertising the benefits of de-restricting them:

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-de-restrict-a-bosch-electric-bike/

For those who keep describing people who use e-bikes as lazy/fat/stupid/etc, please try to be less ignorant.
I've got close family members with severe chronic illnesses who used to be keen bikers, they got seriously ill, recovered a little but they'll never be strong enough to ride a 'real' bike again, and the e-bikes they bought have been absolutely brilliant - they're now able to go out on the bikes for an enjoyable all-day pootle and the effort you do still have to put in is gradually helping with their health and fitness all the time. They aren't motorised vehicles, they're pedal assist and fairly discreet in appearance so I don't see the access argument as a major issue - it's not like anyone's going to be bombing along a trail in a cloud of two-stroke.

People who are going to get genuinely upset that their Strava KOM's been 'beaten' need to get a grip.

And isn't it like having a sack of spuds on board when you go downhill again anyway?

Yes it is.

I'm just struggling to get past the first law of thermodynamics with these things, sort of human powered in the same way as a rowing boat with a motor. which switches off when you stop rowing.

Riding one will help with your understanding undoubtedly. Have you ever been riding up a climb and had one of your mates come up along side and gently push you by holding your saddle? It's a bit like that.

No doubt that'll happen. The equivalent of riding cheeky trails I guess..

I'm all for them in concept and I reckon they'd be fun as a different experience to 'normal' cycling but I am concerned about the potential long term impact they could have on our access rights.

Borrowed an ebike last year to sort suspension and geometry (160 trail bike)

After sorting it, the suspension being not having enough compression control for the extra weight (60 odd lbs) with a good spec. kit build.
I managed some stupidally quick times on climbs KOM at BPW up off road climb by over 2.30 mins etc (I didn't make this public so don't show on leaderboards)
Uphill bonkers fun and able to lift front wheel at will to power wheelie/steer, along the flat pretty good but need more input to turn due to weight, downhill not great down to weight and most of the time motor cut out as going to quick, corner exit 'push' was handy though.

anyone who thinks they will ever take over mtb's or become mainstream is a fool.
they are a means to a end, to be used when ill or disabled in some way.
nobody would buy one and choose to ride it rather that riding a proper mtb.

No I try to avoid being groped by my mates when riding up hill. So, other than the battery inputting energy (i.e. mot human), they're human powered. I get it.

The 350w motor will always be illegal to use on the road as its above the motor wattage limit. Its fairly obvious when looking at the bike that is is a speed pedelec. This cannot be used on the road at all – as one guy recently found out when he was hit by a bus. The cyclist was not at fault but had the book thrown at him when his bike was accessed and found to be a Bosch S pedelec. He was then liable for all damages resulting in a lot of money, he also lost his driving license as a 350w motor is classed as a motor vehicle!

With this in mind remember that the 250w motor with the dongle fitted will actually out speed the 350w motor. It is also compliant (with the dongle detached).

When you've got to the top of a climb on an ebike do you take a long drag on an e-cig.

No way am I riding one. Aid climbing for bikes.

but I am concerned about the potential long term impact they could have on our access rights

The reality is we have no access rights - or at least not for anything I want to ride - since there are no access rights to adhere to it will have no impact.

Also.... e-bikes are for the elderly, disabled and lazy

I'm not sure that's right ton. I reckon that loads of people, particularly those new to the sport and wanting to do for example a trail centre day but without the fitness to do that comfortably would be keen to have one. Particularly as they inevitably come down in price and weight and increase power/duration

Power delivery is pretty linear and you do have to pedal it to get the drive, couldn't get it to spin (bosch motor in turbo mode)
Got power output 'measured' at 500 odd watts in a couple of bits of trail when really standing on the pedals, used on my commute to work in wales (offroad & cycle path) my cx bike was quicker due to higher top speed as the motor cutting out at the limiter.
They're crap to ride with no assist too.

people do seem to fixate on the 250W bit, that's spec max output, you won't get the full 250W, nor would you get that for very long if you tried.

I don't have figures to hand of how much actual assisting they do in Watts at any given speed and for how long etc. (I'm researching now but I'm pretty sure it's quite linear, so more human input = more assisted output until cutout), but being that your normal fit human can do between 100-200W as a sustainable output for an hour or so, more at a peak, and much more for top athletes, add that to the fact you'll only be getting a fraction of the motor output at any given time then what they are effectively able to do is turn unfit people into fit people, and moderately fit people into top athletes (and in some cases more than that).

This is also why they are so useful for injury recovery and helping the less able get access to an activity that would otherwise not be available to them, most users of this type will be doing no more damage and putting out no more overall power than your average [b]fit [/b]MTBer, the assist is still proportional so their lighter pedalling = your normal/hard pedalling.

This kind of reduces the arguments about them being motorised vehicles and tearing up the trails as for the most part* the kind of people that are going to use them are only going to be equivalent to a proper fittie.

Access issues and arguments from ramblers and the like are a genuine concern, and will probably have to be dealt with at some point, but as is evident in this thread and the many others popping up now is that there is a still a lot of misunderstanding about them and exactly what they are, as they become more widespread then this will likely change a bit. I look forward to the day that the Ramblers start calling for bionic assisted legs to be banned from their footpaths 😉

*And I think it's a fair assumption that most very fit people and top athletes won't be using them as it's kinda not in keeping with how they got to be so fit!

I cant see the price dropping on them.
new lighter battery technology will always cost a load. just look at good lighting systems.
people will not pay for them. most new to a sport folk want a cheap bike. 2k plus price will always scare most folk off.

The limited ones won't be much of an issue with the speed limiter, you really will only be able to climb faster but not that much quicker, so it'll be down to the rider (as with normal bikes) as to how they behave in ramblers,horseriders, trailusers presence TBH.
They are pedal assist bikes, not motorbikes as I'm sure has been covered earlier in the thread & article.

I cant see the price dropping on them.

It will. Lights used to cost silly money, you can get them for a few quid now.

Add in that they then allow a heavy (read cheap) bike to be fast and they will be very attractive.

I propose a simple law. Anyone riding an e-bike without a medical reason should be required to wear one of these:

[img] [/img]

with the words LAZY ****ER in big pink letters on the back