My wife and I purchased our house in the winter of 2014. Having purchased at near to the asking price after no major problems were found with full structural survey, we have now found some significant ones.

Within 3 weeks of our arrival, the boiler was leaking both oil and water and a recommendation was made to replace (at a cost of £4400). The survey gave it clean bill of health.

During the winter of 2014, we had a few small leaks from the roof, which I was assured was fairly normal, but during the “summer”, these leaks have gotten much worse. As such, we have now had two roofers to survey the property, both of which have determined that the roof membrane is perished, requiring a complete strip of the tiles, removal of the batons, and replacement of the membrane, batons and tiles at a cost of ~£6000. Again the roof was given a clean bill of health.

Do we have ANY legal recourse against the surveyor? The final offer on the house was made in respect of their survey and report.

We’ve incurred almost £13000 worth of work in the first year of ownership…surely they bear some responsibility?

Is this just a case of caveat emptor?

You had a contract with the surveyor. You can bring any legal aciton against them under this.

They will, of course, have sought to limit or exclude any liability as much as possible.

£13k is clearly plenty enough to justify getting formal legal advice.

Unless you get Dominic Littlewood on side, not much hope. We’re trying to negotiate the buying of a 150 year old property, won’t bother with a survey, we will put the money towards a new boiler it needs.

You must have a good case against the surveyor although I’m a little surprised a full structural survey included a detailed inspection of the boiler

how olds the house?

also every survey ive read – says something like ” weather was fair but a visual inspection was done with binoculars”

if there was no signs of leaking then how exactly is he supposed to determine if its leaking.

also boiler – all the ones i have seen have said ” the boiler is present and appears to be in working order although a full inspection from a qualified engineer would be advised”

what is the wording on your report ?

also – was this a home buyers survey or a full bhuna structural ?

jamesgarbett – Member
You must have a good case against the surveyor although I’m a little surprised a full structural survey included a detailed inspection of the boiler

It didn’t, but was included in the survey report as being in good working order.

Did the surveyor get out of his car or just drive past the house?

cloudnine – Member
Did the surveyor get out of his car or just drive past the house?

My suspicion tends toward the latter…

Rather depends how full the survey you paid for should have been. Seem to recall having a choice of 3 levels, varying from the house exists to the house is thoroughly checked inside and out.

Survey reports I’ve seen usually have a rider about getting the boiler and electrics checked by plumbers/electricians.

The roof membrane might be easier to claim for. A real full survey should involve him having a good look in the loft space if he could get access. If the leaks were noticeable just after you bought it, I’d have thought he would have seen some evidence of water ingress, especially if the battens need replacing.

More importantly, how did the water get through the tiles to get to the membrane? That suggests a problem with the tiles that should have been visible on the external inspection.

“how did the water get through the tiles to get to the membrane?”

many older houses were built without a membrane on purpose- which is why i asked how old the house was…..

Checking the ‘real’ condition of a boiler is not something a surveyor is trained to do as far as I am aware.
Your solicitor should have or you should have ensured that the previous owner had the boiler serviced recently and that they supplied evidence of this. I just sold my house and had to provide a gas safe certificate to prove that the boiler was in good working order and had been recently serviced by a registered engineer. I have also ensured this is provided for the house I am currently buying.
If you were provided with this, it might be a case of bad luck unfortunately.

After 3 weeks you will be waaaaay more of an expert of your boiler than you could expect a surveyor of the property to be in what would be a maximum (being very charitable here) 2 hours in the hours. If there were no obvious visible signs of a leak without dismantling, if it turned on and the radiators started to get vaguely warm I would have thought that would be job done on even the most arduous of surveyor inspections.

From memory there are three levels of survey , I drove past the house and googled sale prices therefore it exists and is possibly worth the money = valuation survey, as before but I looked at the roof through binoculars and walked round inside and it looked OK to me = a home buyers survey , and a full survey which lists every element of the house itemises any obvious or possible defect and identifies the sort of specialist you should now pay to inspect that element.
All tend to be written to limit or avoid liability.
An obviously leaking roof should have been spotted by a full survey and flagged up either as a needs further inspection by qualified builder or clear problem.
If it was not obvious that would suggest sudden failure which is your problem or concealment by the vendor which should mean lying on the precontract enquiries so they would be in breach of contract.

I had a mid-level home buyers report when we purchased. It came with a traffic light system of Green, Amber and Red for each area. Most came back a Amber or Red to cover surveyor. I haven’t done anything about most of them.

The day we got the keys we walked into the kitchen to the smell of gas. Gas Engineer shut off the gas immediately. We had no recourse on our seller.

I had a full survey on mine and the surveyor missed pretty everything but covered himself by putting a get out clause in every section say something like ‘visual inspection you need to get a specialist in investigate issues further’, I think he recommended I had at least 12 different specialist contractor come in to do reports which would have cost thousands of pounds.

Complete waste of money, some of them must be just using google maps and a standard template now. You seem to be better off taking the cash and putting it towards repairs.

What did he say about the roof?

I doubt theres much you can do Daffy.

When we bought our house 10 years ago, IIRC we went with the full survey as its a late 1800s house which had been hacked about with a bit so wanted to make sure it was structurally sound.

I remember the survey highlighting the central heating/boiler was fine but there was a problem with one of the doors on the first floor in that it had (and still does!) a 2″ x 4″ hole cut out of the top of it. Why? No idea. Does it bother us/render our lives incomplete? No.

Shortly after we moved in we started having problems with the boiler. Long story short but it needed replacing – we bought the house off a plumber who it turns out had bodged/done a load of stuff on the cheap in his own home. The main problem was that the diameter of the pipe between the main and the boiler was too small in diameter (a cost cutting exercise) so the boiler was straining to pull gas into itself which led to its premature demise.

Was any of this checked/picked up on the survey? Was is heckers.

And I remember our roof being inspected by standing on the ground and looking at it with binoculars too.

In the process of selling/buying a new house and we’ll be going with the cheapest survey there is.

dantsw13 – Member
What did he say about the roof?

This was all he had to say:

Roofs to the property are concrete tiled with multiple pitch arrangements. Roofs are formed by valley gutters. There is a bitumen felt underlay to all accessed areas, all supported by timber roof frames.

The roof void over the single story front side projection is not accessible, but has a similar concrete tile arrangement to the rest of the building.

As reported earlier, no access to the inside of the smaller roof was possible as there is no access hatch and so I cannot advise of any defects.

The main roof space should be ventilated to prevent condensation

The main roof space is inadequately insulated and insulation should be provided

That’s it.

As above, pretty sure there’s not a lot you can do about it as they are covered by small print along the lines of ‘If anything goes wrong & is actually faulty, tough titty’.

The couple we bought our house off, moved to a house at the other end of the road.
He left a load of stuff in the shed & asked if he could come back the next morning to get it.

It rained in the night & when he came down the next morning, he looked knackered. Basically the flat roof at the back of the roof leaked like a sieve so he had spent the night finding buckets & saucepans to catch all the leaks.
There was a radiator in the living room that they realised wasn’t actually plumbed into the central heating system & similarly a gas fire that had been disconnected.
They also had an issue with the light switches; you had to have a combination of lights on to get other lights to work etc.

They ended up spending their ‘doing it up’ budget & more on fixing all the issues with the house and could get nothing out of the seller or the surveyor.

Having just bought a house, I know how difficult finding £13k more to spend is! But you will have a entirely redone roof and a brand new (with warranty) boiler. Essentially you’re getting peace of mind on the major items that can go wrong in a house for the next 10-15 years.

Unless you’ve had a full survey, where they really looked at the roof and a heating engineer looked at the boiler, I think recourse with the surveyor is likely to fail.

It’s been a while, but I think, when we had our survey done the survey included some insurance, such that if they missed any problems or issues, there was some cover. I didn’t look at the particulars of the cover, or more importantly the small print, but it might be worth going back to your surveyor to at least raise your concerns, particulary with the roof.

OP, you still haven’t said how old the house is…
When does it leak? Every time it rains? Only when it p!sses it down? Only when it’s windy? All the time, even when it’s not raining?

Don’t laugh at the last one; your surveyor’s quote mentions that insulation is needed. Have you fitted some?
Also mentioned is the need for ventilation in the loft space. If you’ve laid insulation but haven’t provided adequate ventilation, it could be dripping wet up there.

The main roof space should be ventilated to prevent condensation

The main roof space is inadequately insulated and insulation should be provided

So, when does it leak, and how old is the house?

Due to age and size of the property We had a full survey done on our current house. The surveyor spent a day and a half in site and the report was nearly 40 pages plus appendixes with photos!

We’ve had no surprises…

If the surveyor is certified by/a member of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) isn’t that a route for recourse?

This was all he had to say:

Roofs to the property are concrete tiled with multiple pitch arrangements. Roofs are formed by valley gutters. There is a bitumen felt underlay to all accessed areas, all supported by timber roof frames.

The roof void over the single story front side projection is not accessible, but has a similar concrete tile arrangement to the rest of the building.

As reported earlier, no access to the inside of the smaller roof was possible as there is no access hatch and so I cannot advise of any defects.

The main roof space should be ventilated to prevent condensation

The main roof space is inadequately insulated and insulation should be provided

That’s it.

Exceptionally vague – he may as well just have done a simple check list…

Roof – Yes
Windows – Yes
Front Door – Yes
Rooms – Yes

We had our Survey come back yesterday for the property we are buying and I have to admit is was a lot better than I was expecting, i.e. more thorough.

There were of course the usual replies of we have not tested it, you should.

The Boiler section said:

Heating Central heating and hot water are provided by a gas combination condensing boiler which is located in a cupboard in the study. This serves steel panel radiators. The central heating pipes, where visible, are in copper. We do not know of any service agreement for the boiler and heating system. The heating was not on when we inspected. No obvious defects were seen but we have only carried out a visual inspection of the system and therefore cannot comment in detail on its working condition. This is a risk to persons, see Section J3.
You should ask an appropriate person to investigate and test the heating system and report before exchange of contracts if there is no service agreement in place.

We refer you to the page in this report entitled ‘What to do now’.

Condition Rating 3. Further Investigation.

Roofs to the property are concrete tiled with multiple pitch arrangements. Roofs are formed by valley gutters. There is a bitumen felt underlay to all accessed areas, all supported by timber roof frames.

The roof void over the single story front side projection is not accessible, but has a similar concrete tile arrangement to the rest of the building.

As reported earlier, no access to the inside of the smaller roof was possible as there is no access hatch and so I cannot advise of any defects.

The main roof space should be ventilated to prevent condensation

The main roof space is inadequately insulated and insulation should be provided

this translates into – yep , the property has a roof.

You need to look at the surveryor as someone who tells you what needs to be checked, not to tell you the state of everything.

I’d sugest that when buying a house your money would be better spent satisfying the lenders with the valuation report and then getting a roofer, plumber and electrician round to check things out for you.

Because all a surveryor is going to tell you beyond the value and rebuild cost of the house is that you need to do further checks in some areas. Which need a plumber, electrician or roofer.

Heating Central heating and hot water are provided by a gas combination condensing boiler which is located in a cupboard in the study. This serves steel panel radiators. The central heating pipes, where visible, are in copper. We do not know of any service agreement for the boiler and heating system. The heating was not on when we inspected. No obvious defects were seen but we have only carried out a visual inspection of the system and therefore cannot comment in detail on its working condition. This is a risk to persons, see Section J3.
You should ask an appropriate person to investigate and test the heating system and report before exchange of contracts if there is no service agreement in place

Which basically says “yep, there’s a boiler. I’d check that if I were you”.

Your solicitor will be the one who checks it for you by asking for service certificates. If sellers haven’t serviced the boiler the buyer will need to get a gas fitter round to check it out. If this didn’t happen then the people I’d be harrasing would be the solicitor, not the surveryor. If it did happen then it would be whoever checked/serviced the boiler that would be in the firing line.

suburbanreuben – Member

OP, you still haven’t said how old the house is…
When does it leak? Every time it rains? Only when it p!sses it down? Only when it’s windy? All the time, even when it’s not raining?

The house was built in 1972, the house leaks when its raining. Obviously, it leaks more when it’s raining heavily and moreso, when raining heavily and windy. There’s no evidence of any plumbing leaks.

The loft is actually very well ventilated, though mostly by poor block-work and the fact the house is in an exposed position. I have insulated the main loft space, and have quite a lot of cardboard up there….it’s dry. not desert dry, but dry nonetheless.

Right, so does the roof leak in the bit that he looked into or the bit that he says he couldn’t get into? If the former, you could start asking questions.

And if the water is getting in through the roof/membrane, how is the cardboard under it dry?

Daffy

Can you state what exactly you paid for

Full structural
Home buyers
Mortgage valuation

If you don’t know then what did the survey cost?

I’m no expert but unless it’s a full structural just forget it, even if it is then it’s prob full of weasely clauses

If you purchased a structural survey the surveyor would not look at either boiler nor roof membrane as these are not structural. They might notice water ingress if it’s old and evidence of it has not been hidden though.

MoreCashThanDash – Member
Right, so does the roof leak in the bit that he looked into or the bit that he says he couldn’t get into? If the former, you could start asking questions.

And if the water is getting in through the roof/membrane, how is the cardboard under it dry?

Yes. The water is passing through the membrane, agglomerating (as water is want to do) then runs down the inside of the membrane until it encounters one of the battens, runs along that until it contacts a truss, which brings it to floor (or ceiling dependent upon your point of view) level. It’s effectively taking the path of least resistance as defined by gravity and connectivity which bypass the boarded part of the loft.

We’re not talking a lot of visible water, but it’s now in 4 different locations within the house (two upstairs, two downstairs) and if left uncorrected, will completely destroy the ceilings.

The water is passing through the membrane, agglomerating (as water is want to do) then runs down the inside of the membrane until it encounters one of the battens

Why would a batten be inside the membrane, arnt they supposed to be on the outside with the tiles tacked onto them. Anyway, sound like your tiles arnt doing a very good job either. Ive got a knackered old slate roof with no membrane and we only get water in during severe storms, and even then its only enough to make a very small puddle on the boards below (if it can make it past a lofts worth of accumulated clutter that is).

agglomerating (as water is want to do) then runs down the inside of the membrane until it encounters one of the battens,

That could possibly be condensation. Have you added any ventilation as the surveyor suggested?

Built in ’72 means it is just early enough to be built with no regard for the need for any insulation.

Good luck Daffy (you’ve seen my gaff!).

Survey missed loads of stuff and everything else called out as needing immediate attention (not really, but you get my gist).

Strikes me as a blend of incompetence/a lie and arse covering.

I’ve just sucked it up, which is by no means me trying to be smart, it’s just I personally try to make life easy for myself – balancing everything out for me, just meant accepting, sorting, paying and learning.

That said, the house is still a shambles!

That could possibly be condensation

and has it only started happening since you added insulation.

suburbanreuben – Member

Built in ’72 means it is just early enough to be built with no regard for the need for any insulation.

At any other point apart from when raining, the loft is bone dry. Trust me, the loft is well ventilated; I can see daylight through both ends of it.

jam bo – Member
and has it only started happening since you added insulation.

No, the loft has been leaking since December, the insulation was added in February.

Also, I have only added insulation to the main roof because, as mentioned, the lower roof is currently inaccessible, but it too is leaking.

The roofers removed the tile from the lower and upper roof (none of my tiles are nailed to the roof) to inspect the membrane.