I mean in a business model, innovation way etc. etc.

Perhaps one of them is more similar to Microsoft!!

What do you guys think?

Two very different companies, probably neither fit into an easy Apple V Google V Microsoft bracket!

I’ve always thought of apple as overpriced and style over substance, but never thought of shimano that way, so for me no

Only in the sense that whichever one you start with you tend to stay with as they lock you into their ‘ecosystem’.

Google and SRAM here…

Lock in – SRAM – Apple. At least with XD and expensive cassettes 😉

If anything Shimano are more like Google in that the stuff they do is relatively standard and can be used/licenced by anyone (like Android).

But they’re not really that comparable. Too easy to mix and match.

I’m a bit of a SRAM fan, but I prefer to stick with Shimano freehubs so have Shimano compatible freehub and cassette, and I can use any third party cassette that uses the same standard. Gears, cranks, brakes, all SRAM, because I like them. I can swap crank to whatever brand without issue. Only shifter and mech have to be kept same (though even then there are some combinations that can work with different brands). Brakes are brakes. Calliper and lever will of course be same brand generally. Disc can get from wherever so long as it’s the right size.

And yeah, neither SRAM or Shimano are style over substance, so not really Apple like to me.

Yeah the lock in is fair, but the consider the state of the smart phone market, or apps, if Apple hadnt gone with lock in. Without the iPhone the smart phone / app market would be a shadow of its size today. Bold moves need some payback I guess. The nice thing about XD, although its proprietary, it is also better…

Those are two very different areas of business you’re trying to compare. Shimano and SRAM are not that dissimilar to each other in how they operate and the products they sell. Apple and Google have some areas where they compete (e.g. Mobile OS and media) but many where they don’t. Google is not a big player in hardware at all.

If you’re trying to draw a comparison between Shimano /SRAM and the ‘planned obsolescence’ apple is often accused of then it’s a pretty weak link IMHO.

Might be a more interesting discussion on how people perceive the different brands and how they sell themselves, if that’s what you’re interested in.

Surely Campag is apple, complete fan boy users

Yes, I’d say Campagnolo is similar to Apple. It’s ergonomic, functional premium quality and “stylish”.

Shimano is a bit cheap/awkward/blingy, although it didn’t always used to be this way.

not that dissimilar to each other in how they operate and the products they sell

As a few year veteran of dealing with both, I can assure you SRAM and Shimano are absolutely nothing alike when it comes to how they operate.

Ok, I guess from the consumers perspective they appear broadly similar and have a lot of similar products but I have no idea what they are like to deal with as a business.

Can you share any juicy insights? 🙂

benpinnick –
As a few year veteran of dealing with both, I can assure you SRAM and Shimano are absolutely nothing alike when it comes to how they operate.

If it won’t get you into any trouble is live to hear your perspective mate? 🙂

jommo
If you’re trying to draw a comparison between Shimano /SRAM and the ‘planned obsolescence’ apple is often accused of then it’s a pretty weak link IMHO.

Not meant to be too rigourous a discussion my friend, more a talking point really. Just follows a discussion I was having with a friend a few days back.

Apple/SRAM/Vauxhall/Pepsi/The Sun/Cat AIDS.

There’s only one that I’d have. Or actively try to get.

If Shimano and SRAM were animals what would they be? And which one would win in a fight?

Yeah sure I can share a few bits of info… I guess, each company sets their own path, and to a greater extent has to live with the burden thats creating! This will sound like a SRAM fanboi fest, but lets just say SRAM aren’t like anyone else in the industry, then it makes more sense. Its not a criticism of Shimano, just a big up for SRAM.

SRAM are a model company TBH. Dealing with them, is pretty much like no other company I ever dealt with before. I’ve run bigger companies than Bird, dealing with bigger suppliers. I know generally I think how the world works. SRAM aern’t like the world at large. They are so progressive, so flat in their hierarchy, its bonkers considering their size. Yes they have certain ‘ways’ of doing things that can be maddening, but when you deal with SRAM you really think, no, know, they are listening. We’re only small beans for them, maybe 0.1% of turnover on a very good day, but they have always gone out of their way to help us. Its the little things like the fact we have our own dedicated suspension engineer in Germany who builds me shock tunes on demand. Thats doesn’t sound like alot but it makes my life so much easier. Sure sometimes to circumvent lead times we buy a stock tune shock from Taiwan, import to the UK and send back out to Germany for retuning, but thats playing the system. Everyone in the chain helps make that happen quickly and efficiently, even if I can’t bypass the system.

When I order SRAM product, its ready in 30 days in at the factory door. Pretty much guaranteed. There is literally NO other MTB component producer in the world that hits that target, excepting maybe smaller guys like Cane creek where we’re basically ordering from their US aftermarket stock, at OE prices, which is kind of cheating. Sure occasionally stuff misses that date, but they are also awesome at letting us know if thats going to happen, something that certain other companies aren’t so hot on.

SRAM listen to us. They genuinely take our feedback seriously. They’ve moved embargo dates, changed production techniques and other stuff based on our, tiny little Bird, feedback. if I bitch about something, stuff actually changes at SRAM. I know with 100% confidence my feedback changed production techniques in Taiwan – based on my, very limited feedback other than ‘I’ve done this 10 times and realised if you did x my life would be easier’. If I say I need 100 of this tiny part because I keep losing them under the workbench someone somewhere generates a part code for said tiny part so I can buy 100 of them.

When there was a mass shortage of forks and brakes at SRAM last year (if you were wondering why your Canyon etc. was delayed….) They went completely, and over-the-top-ly out of their way to help us through what for us was a very difficult situation for us.

Dealing with SRAM is basically a league of its own, Shimano (and to a greater extent most of the cycle industry, but perhaps less so) have a massively long way to catch up. If you ever thought that companies use SRAM over the competition because its cheaper – It’s not. I can tell you that for a fact. Its just so much easier its worth the price difference.

Wow, that was a really good and insightful read Ben, thanks for posting. 🙂

Thanks Ben, really interesting to read that kind of stuff, I’m surprised it’s not made more of in their marketing. Very on-trend being ‘agile’ and all that for anyone that cares.

I’d always thought of Shimano as the safe-bet and SRAM looked like the keen upstart but their spread of sub-brands (Rockshox, truvativ etc.) etc. made them look like a bit cobbled together.

Was / is how SRAM work an influence on how you wanted to run Bird? Flexible spec, building on demand etc?

Yup, SRAM is for sure a cobbled together assembly of acquisitions and sub-brands on the main part, Thats not debatable. However the difference I guess is that they buy these other companies and slowly bring them into the SRAM way of doing business, which ultimately is good for everyone involved. If I look right now at the lead times on products, lets call them fully integrated SRAM products like RockShox for example run 30d lead times, whereas the outlying new purchases run longer lead times, while they catch up with the SRAM way, but they’ll get there. For all the business bods out there, SRAM is definitely one of the few companies adding real value through acquisition right now.

Was / is how SRAM work an influence on how you wanted to run Bird? Flexible spec, building on demand etc?

No, interestingly I guess, in our early days we never stocked 10 spd SRAM as we didn’t really like it for many reasons (and as I mentioned previously price isn’t actually a factor, and 11 spd was still super premium back then). The Shimano 10 spd was just better in our opinion.

SRAM was for us in the early stages all about RockShox, we wanted that, but nothing else. In the early stages we just accepted the 90+d lead times from other manufacturers, it was only SRAM that changed that view. I guess a point worth noting is that SRAM were the hardest OE account to secure by far. They put us through the mill for sure. Its a whole, long other story about how we got our SRAM OE account, but lets just say it was 50% of the total OE effort! I would guess, only anecdotally, thats why SRAM bits are generally more expensive aftermarket than their competition, as the accounts are more difficult to come by.

With SRAM though as we’ve developed the business we’ve started to leverage their very unique capabilities to match our own position. For example, we shipped the world’s first production GX Eagle bike on June 8th. We also (I Think) shipped the first 2018 Pike bikes, the first set of 2018 Revelations & Lyriks. While SRAM aren’t giving us special treatment in that regard, their very short lead times and flexibility just happens to really suit our business model.

Back to your original point, we want to run flexible specs etc, and SRAM offer the best path to doing so in so many regards, and are also kicking ass with 12 Spd! Already our biggest selling groupset option just a month and a bit after it launched…..

Well have to agree about 10 speed SRAM, went thru 2 x7 mechs and an x9 in a year, so running a deore one on my winter bike for 2 years now and it’s in better order than 2 months or of each SRAM mech.

Same bike came with RS suspension, press have been fine, once set to right ( been gave me toys in that!)

But sealing on the monarch was waay below fox stuff I’d used before and since.

Both those experiences have made me wary of SRAM, I’d not say they were premium in the way apple market themselves (I think apple stuff is way overhyped, but do love my 160gb clickwheel iPod!)

Anyway they just aren’t really comparable.

Now Race Face is more Apple IME..

Comparing bike companies to Apple and Google is always going to be hard when Apple and Google aren’t even in the same “industry”.

Apple is a computer hardware company, using software and services to sell their wares. Google is an advertising company, using software and services to sell their wares.

Rachel

There’s some great insight into why SRAM is the way it is in this podcast. Lance Armstrong interviews F. K. Day, one of the founders of SRAM about both SRAM and his charity organisation World Bicycle Relief.

https://soundcloud.com/user-411867241/episode-55-fk-day-the-forward-podcast-with-lance-armstrong

cheers BenP, I can see how SRAMs approach would be preferable for you but I guess you need to offer other alternatives as well, seeing as some people are still pretty tribal about this stuff.

Thanks for the link BenS – will isten to that now

Good insights there Ben,
Was summed up also by some chats with people who know around here, SRAM want to help. They would do sale or return to a mate who was mechanicing for a remote 4 day bike race. Shimano had no interest so everyone was getting SRAM gear.
Shimano couldn’t see the problem when their chains on CRC were cheaper than trade locally.
SRAM addrerssed the issue, our groupset prices here in Oz were better than UK offerings this year – no coincedence that SRAM have stopped cross teritory selling to help their importers suppor the local trade better.
Comments were said that Shimano didn’t care who sold you the bit so long as it was sold which is 2 fingers up to the locals.

As for the innovation the 1x groups are just a refreshing change, thinking outside the box with the XD driver, the realisation that Avid brakes were not up to the job and going ground up on the redesign.

seeing as some people are still pretty tribal about this stuff.

Now owning a felly SRAM bike shimano are going to have to do something fairly revolutionary to get me looking at them again, nothing I’ve see so far has got close – the dropper for instance is that hitting the mainstream? Is it a rival to anything else on the market or just an OEM device?

Shimano more like Toyota surely?

Apple is a computer hardware company, using software and services to sell their wares. Google is an advertising company, using software and services to sell their wares.

Good point, Rachel.
I would also add, Google is also a massive data collection agency and seller of data to 3rd party data collection businesses.
Worth considering. Same for Facebook et al. It must be lovely having a business where billions of people create free content for you to sell.
I don’t think SRAM or Shimano have managed that yet.

Shimano more like Toyota surely?

From what benpinnick has said above it sounds like SRAM are more like Toyota. Shorter lead times (presumably due to less inventory sitting around both before and after manufacturing amongst many other things I’m sure), going the extra mile to help out their colleagues in the supply chain, the ability to adjust manufacturing quickly based on supplier feedback etc.

Not to mention the difficulties benpinnick mentioned getting the OE account. I know that Toyota used to (and I presume they still do) take on suppliers on the grounds that they themselves would improve their work in a Toyota Production System-esque direction.

Absolutely no offence to the OP (he started a good discussion), but the Apple/Google comparison in relation to Shimano is a bit of a distraction (honestly, no offence OP, this is a great discussion!)

BenP’s points are about the most interesting things I’ve read on here today. I’ve heard some podcasts with SRAM bods of late that have changed my view of the company somewhat (Duncan Riffle was fascinating on the vitalmtb podcast), I get the distinct vibe that they really really do care about moving the game on. You can’t fake that, and it comes across from the folks who work there, so it doesn’t surprise me that the way they do the back end business is slightly different also.

I still can’t quite get that they are as easy to deal with from the perspective of a regular consumer. Sure, the warranty back up for RS is good, but getting hold of basic bits its a royal pain in the arse at times. The cost also is a difficult pill to swallow, but there are ways around that at times. I know sometimes it depends on the shop, but generally I struggle to get anything quickly from my local LBS’s SRAM wise, there is always a wait, whereas you can go into any UK bike shop and find the core Shimano kit. Gets you back up and running quicker.

BenP, I think you need to get on the Hookit podcast, love this industry stuff. 🙂

And some of the stuff Made In Japan like Toyota.

@mikewsmith up until recently I’ve mixed SRAM and Shimano on my bikes but have always deferred to Shimano for the shifting and braking duties. I also have an all SRAM bike now and have been impressed so far.

Shimano still have the edge on the industrial design side though IMHO, SRAM kit looks fine but it’s not quite as well finished at least in the low and mid ranges.

Didn’t see the thread heading this way! A nice surprise.

Some genuinely interesting posts from people in the know on here.

Off to listen to the podcast a bit later.:-)

I do agree with andywoodall by the way,I find getting some sram spares a bit of a pain. That said it depends on how good your lbs is in a way.

Which is a shame as I don’t really have one nearby that I rate to be honest. 🙁

Apple is a computer hardware company, using software and services to sell their wares. Google is an advertising company, using software and services to sell their wares.

Not completely true anymore.

Google are still an ad agent selling data leveraged through their ‘free services’.

Apple are not really the hardware company they used to be though. The old Apple were very much a HW shop with System … OsX … existing to showcase and sell the hardware. Since the iPod and the advent of iTunes though, they’ve increasingly been about selling services and content with the hardware (and associated software) existing to flog said content. In that way they’re very much like a premium OE vendor having their bits draped on the latest wunder bike.

The analogy is a fair bit off, but the question does tell you that the ‘modern metric’ has become to measure the world around us by IT companies and our impressions of them.

It’s also interesting to look at the answers and try to gauge people’s perception of various organisations and the basis for it…

Shimano are an interesting company, bicycle parts and fishing equipment there’s nobody quite like them.

Similarly SRAM are quite unique in the bicycle world, they make just about the whole bike, apart from the frame now, and are a pretty huge organisation, but the perception most people have is positive using words like innovation and creative to describe them… That’s unusual for a bigger company.

Yes, I’d say Campagnolo is similar to Apple. It’s ergonomic, functional premium quality and “stylish”.

I thought Campag was meant to get better with age, not slowly degenerate over 18 months to the point where battery life is pathetic and crack at the merest interface with the floor.

That said it depends on how good your lbs is in a way.

Only one of my local ones stocks SRAM drivetrain stuff, and its not my fav shop, so its become a pain this last week trying to source stuff. Have gone to CRC as they are the only ones who can get me everything in one hit (except jockey wheels annoyingly).