I follow all the guidance about riding primary position – assertive, take your lane, make yourself visible etc – on clear roads, when riding next to parked cars, coming up to and through pinch points etc…

But 3 times in the last week I’ve nearly been taken out by a driver – Saturday coming through a pinch point when the driver felt I should have been in the cycle lane on the pavement – he was close enough for me to slap his car which he didn’t like… this morning by a coach, and this evening by a van driver who after overtaking down a residential road spent the next few seconds gesticulating at me through the rear window rather than looking where he was going…

So in each of these instances the drivers seemed to think I was in their way, and got aggressive about it to the point of nearly landing me in hospital.

Clearly under the law they’re in the wrong and ignorant – but by acting on this ignorance I’m at risk of being seriously hurt… and by the time they learn it’ll be too late for me…

So the conundrum is… take primary position for your own safety, which also puts you at risk from bad drivers…

Obviously you don’t know how bad a driver is until too late and I’m running out of ideas for keeping safe…

Thoughts?

We’ve had this before, but essentially, for me, being in primary means that it is impossible for the car to overtake without driving through you. If people are managing to do so, either you aren’t far enough out or you shouldn’t be in primary at that point

I don’t think I’ve come across ‘primary’ position before, but I get the gist.

The best way to explain my approach is: if there’s space to overtake me, then I’ll be about a foot or 2 from the kerb, and resolutely resisting being squeezed into it. Most drivers give reasonable space as they pass; the knobbers don’t like it, but meh. (fwiw, if anyone passes closer than a foot from my bars I get peed off, although that’s probably just me).

If there’s not space to overtake me safely, then I’ll plonk myself slap bang in the middle of the lane so it’s not possible to try overtaking without running into oncoming traffic. It does piss drivers off, but I do try to pull over asap after the narrow spot or whatever.

Problem is that drivers do get miffed – they just don’t seem to comprehend the question of ‘where am I supposed to ride?’.

The thing is some man or woman aiming a ton of steel and palstic at you from behind,no matter what your positioning theyre going to intimidate you,and withsome it may well be a stolen car, or one they dont have any material worth in, eg a comapny one.

[/under bridge] sounds riskier than running quite a few of the red lights on my commute [under bridge)

they should have to cross the white line completely to overtake if you are in Primary

vehicles behind often get cross but they dont just run you over

Very good for pinch points or when I deem it unsafe to overtake me but I dont ride it in everywhere.

More seriously: there’s really no way of giving definitive advice about the safest way for an individual rider to negotiate a given route.

And certainly not via the internet. So much depends on the drivers around you, the speed you keep, the speed available for cars to keep, your attitude to risk, the impression your body language/road positioning gives other road users about your assertiveness, ability, awareness etc…

Try a few different things, maybe even stop and watch or look at the pinch points on google maps. If you can’t find a path that’s safe to your satisfaction, walk those bits or find another route.

Am I the only one that puts in the occasional “wobble” to put doubt in a drivers mind and make them give me a wider berth?

Works – honest

Rachel

for me, being in primary means that it is impossible for the car to overtake without driving through you. If people are managing to do so, either you aren’t far enough out or you shouldn’t be in primary at that point

This is the nub of the issue – you’re right and it’s what we’re recommended to do. But drivers don’t know we’re doing it for our own (and their safety) – they think we’re ‘in the way’, being a PITA for the sake of it and it antagonises them (or at least they choose to let it antagonise them). So as soon as there’s any space to get past they do so, dangerously… IMO they drive too close to make a point…

bloody girls and their devious ways 😕

i do occasionally

I do that as well Rachel

To the OP – its difficult as every situation is different but I use basically two positions if the road is wide enough for a car each way and a bike with plenty of room I am about 1m from the kerb ( secondary position) If the road is not wide enough for a car to overtake safely then I am far enough out in the road to stop them doing so usually the centre of the lane.

Nicko a foot from the kerb is too close, a foot from your bars is too close.

Edit – I suspect that if a car got that close to you at a pinch point you were not far enough out from the kerb early enough. I will look over my shoulder before a pinch point, decide where in the line of cars I am going to move out and if needed signal but make eye contact with teh car that I am going to be in front of

The other ting is eye contact. Look at tehm over your shoulder. Signal yor intention. thank them with a wave and then wave them thru when tere is room.

and ignore the aggressive idiots

usually the centre of the lane.

I agree.
But it seems to annoy the drivers. and angry drivers aren’t safe drivers…

nedrapier – Member
More seriously: there’s really no way of giving definitive advice about the safest way for an individual rider to negotiate a given route.

well said – if you ride according to “the numbers” you’re riding badly IMO.
Case in point, my commute is on country roads one of which is about 3 miles long with no side turnings, so no risk of T-boning. If I sense/hear a traffic build up I just nip up on the path and let the traffic go past.

Cue plenty of single flash hazard “thank yous” and motorists with a positive attitude towards bikes.
If I exerted “my rights” I’d have a pretty large queue behind me by the time the road widened who would then accelerate past, hacked off and stressed – personally I think that’s not a nice way to treat other road users.

For what it’s worth, I’ve cycled to work/school for over 40 years, cross London, country roads, dual carriageways, urban ring road sprawls – pretty much the whole works. In that time number of incidents, zero – not even a near miss, no road rage, no fist waving, no U lock brandishing. Result is I arrive at work happy and unstressed as do (hopefully) most of the people I share the roads with.
“Assume the position” if you will, at least when that occasional idiot who thinks they can get past (or just doesn’t care) wipes you out you’ll be able to bask in the self righteous knowledge the you were “in the right” 😕

and ignore the aggressive idiots

This is key. Slapping cars and the like will result in confrontation, or just make a regular enemy when they recognise you in future. Even gesticulating (such as raising your hand in a ‘WTF?’ pose) just results in making the driver even more of a cyclist hater.

It also ruins your ride as you allow inconsiderate riders to overshadow you.

I find the fake wobble works like a dream, its particularly effective when you are approaching a pinch point and you need to create a gap so you can take up the primary position. A half-hearted primary position (where a car can still force their way through) is probably more dangerous than hugging the kerb though…you have to block your whole lane. If I don’t think I can hold my position without antagonising drivers then its time to reconsider my route/take to the pavement temporarily etc.

I never seem to have any problem with drivers when I use primary position – if you’re in primary position they can’t overtake you, simples 🙂

Hilldodger – its not about exerting you rights or assuming the position – its about using the best road position to be safest and in much urban riding holding a lane is the safest way.

I agree with yo about getting out of the way when you can – and also remember to thank courteous drivers

I do not believe 40 years and not one near miss. I think you simply are far more tolerant of this than some. Yo really have never had to brake or swerve to avoid and idiot in a car?

The primary position puts you at risk from drivers who see you and decide that you shouldn’t be there and they can get quite aggressive, however the crucial point is that they do know you are there.
Not taking up the primary position puts you at risk from every dozy idiot who isn’t really aware of anything much at all.
In the first case they have to decide to hit you in the second case it’s all down to luck.

TandemJeremy – Member
I do not believe 40 years and not one near miss. I think you simply are far more tolerant of this than some. Yo really have never had to brake or swerve to avoid and idiot in a car?

No, not ever – I have had plenty of “ooooops moments” with manhole covers, pot holes, white lines, diesel spills, black ice, wet leaves, vagrant semi-suicidal animals and random road debris.
A few “step outs” by pedestrians, if that counts but never an incident as a result of another road users lack of skill or attention.

You just know what’s going to happen tomorrow morning don’t you 😥

Sorry 🙁

TandemJeremy – Member
Sorry

No need, I invoked Ye Olde Lawe of Sodde 😆

I still find it hard to believe you have never been cut up by a car in 40 years. Its a rare week for me when I don’t but most of those are irritating not dangerous ‘cos i see them coming

TandemJeremy – Member
I still find it hard to believe you have never been cut up by a car in 40 years.

Well I guess I’m either supremely lucky, totally oblivious or blessed by Jesus and his holy angels 😀

I can see the primary position thing working in towns, and I do move out a bit in such places, but most on my commute is on B roads in Fenland, so dead straight for about 5 miles. Cars are doing at least 60mph (I do when I drive them) and given the choice between a head on crash with an oncoming car or taking out a cyclist, I can guess which most car drivers would do, even if the driver spotted me.

Well I guess I’m either supremely lucky, totally oblivious or blessed by Jesus and his holy angels

or [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX3R42yIZHU&feature=related[/video]

“occasional “wobble” to put doubt in a drivers mind and make them give me a wider berth?”

Yes. Looking back for longer than a glance has me tending to invoke a wobble, especially if its uphill

If the lanes are only a car (or bus) width then riding a yard out from the line/kerb seems to work as traffic has to cross the line. When Im drving passing a cyclist and I have to cross the white line I completely cross the white line to give maximum room, I cant pass if there is other traffic coming the other way so the other lane is always going to be free. When cycling (or glancing back at following traffic) I never get why others will still only give the minimum of room even with an empty lane to use? Laziness? think they cant use the other side? Dont realise 2′ of room is intimadating?

Its when the lanes are a sort of 1.5 width whereby gutter riding and traffic against the white line would sort of give room (but not loads) where 3′ out gets traffic trying to force its way through, and IME some busses/lorries will be pulling back against you as they pass, forcing you to the gutter/kerb
At least riding 3′ out to start with gives you that room to try escape to. Is that better than having no room to spare but cars giving you more space?
In that situation I cant see trying to hog/block the (1.5) lane is going to go down well?

Its when the lanes are a sort of 1.5 width whereby gutter riding and traffic against the white line would sort of give room (but not loads) where 3′ out gets traffic trying to force its way through, and IME some busses/lorries will be pulling back against you as they pass, forcing you to the gutter/kerb
At least riding 3′ out to start with gives you that room to try escape to. Is that better than having no room to spare but cars giving you more space?
In that situation I cant see trying to hog/block the (1.5) lane is going to go down well?

The point there is, at 3′ out your now positioned in a safe-ish place, so if some aggressive drivers do try to pass then you have given yourself a nice space to your left to move over if required. Also, with busses or lorries, that gap you made gives you enough extra space and time to slow down so they wont swipe you with their back end.

No-one said there is a position on the road that is perfect, but taking a bit more space for yourself can reduce some risks and give you a fighting chance of ‘getting away’ from the others. Something sitting in the gutter will never do.