Just thought i’d clear something up about state teachers (teachers in private schools and academies have completely different contracts):

Teachers don’t get holidays.

Holiday entitlement is an allocation of days/hours that an employee can request to take and still be paid. Teachers don’t have that luxury – they are contracted to work 196 days a year from 8.45am until 3.30pm. They often work much longer hours and will often be marking/planning over the weekend and non-term time breaks.

Imagine your current job but you’re expected to be at work half an hour before your contract says and then work through until about an hour and a half after your contract says for no extra pay and no amount of time of in lieu – that’s similar to the job a teacher has, not to mention a lot of the parents expect the school to be a day care facility to look after the kids when the parents can’t (or doesn’t want to) cope with their own kids.

I wouldn’t be a teacher in a state school for all the tea in China, and private schools/academies are even worse.

Err…

Imagine your current job but you’re expected to be at work half an hour before your contract says and then work through until about an hour and a half after your contract says for no extra pay and no amount of time of in lieu

What, like many people in the private sector?
(I’m not getting at teachers, who do something I couldn’t, but what’s been quoted above is the conditions I’ve worked under (and I’m sure is fairly typical) in the private sector.)

I’ve done 36 hours straight on a few occasions. I spent 4-5 hours a day commuting to client sites on top of my normal hours for years. It’s normal when you have a job.

ebygomm – Member
The way I read it
Current situation
1 year work experience during last year of teacher training – unpaid
1 year probation – full time salary
New Proposals
1 year work experience during last year of teacher training – 0.5 full time salary
1 year probation – 0.5 full time salary
Surely the net pay is the same at the end of the day?

Gross pay is the same overall, but won’t net pay actually be higher as in both years the teacher will only be paying income tax on a few thousand pounds of earnings over the personal allowance?

its not like that though. Current PGCE (most common teacher training program) is a 1 year course for people holding degrees. the course is roughly 85% school time, and 15% uni time. You get a payment for doing the course, its typically 2-5k after you take off tuition fees. some of the courses are 4 weeks uni followed by 15 weeks school, some are 4 or 5 days in school each week, with 0 or 1 day in uni. after the pgce year you have to do a year before you’re ‘fully’ qualified.

If you’d only get 10k for 2 years, I can’t see many degree qualified people taking up the option..

It might not be called holiday but it’s still time not working.

Lets assume a teacher gets 13 weeks ‘out of term time’, whilst a conventional job gets 5 weeks holiday. Bung in an extra week of bank holidays (estimate).

That means that the teacher works 38 weeks of the year, Mr/Mrs conventional works 46 weeks of the year.

Therefore, if they were being paid the same yearly salary, the teacher would need to work ~21% more hours to be paid the same hourly rate as Mr/Mrs Conventional. If Mr/Mrs Conventional worked a ~40hr week, Teacher would have to work a 48hr week.

For all I know this could be the case. Inset days etc. would reduce this.

Not sure why I did this.

Really! where? I know very few people who earn £31552, and my peer group are mostly in their 40’s

Engineering (anything to do with oil, petrochems, or less desirable parts of the world)

You are making the assumption that teachers don’t do any work out of term.

poppa, 48 hour week? No chance. Miss lunge is a year 2 primary teacher, she is at school 8pm at the latest and leaves around 6pm (9 hours ish) and will do a minimum of 4 hours each Sunday so 49 ish hours per week. On top of this you can add 4 hours each day on each of the half terms and the same for the last 2 weeks of summer.

I work in recruitment and my hours are long but she easily work longer hours. More stress too, lots more.

Yoiks! There you go then, it seems that even the longer holidays don’t compensate for the workload.

I’ve done 36 hours straight on a few occasions. I spent 4-5 hours a day commuting to client sites on top of my normal hours for years. It’s normal when you have a job.

What kind of job? I know lots of people who work in the private sector, and when I’ve worked in the private sector I never worked an hour I didn’t get paid for.

What kind of job? I know lots of people who work in the private sector, and when I’ve worked in the private sector I never worked an hour I didn’t get paid for.

Software consultant. Pretty much everyone I know is a software consultant (obviously, I ride a mountainbike). Except one teacher.

You’re a freelancer though presumably – completely different scenario, and freelance fees are normally pretty good to take into account all that.

You’re a freelancer though presumably – completely different scenario, and freelance fees are normally pretty good to take into account all that

No. Never have been. I know a few, but they’re a minority.

At one time I spent half my life on a plane or in airports which a lot of my friends still do.

I should stress I’m not complaining. Quite the opposite. I just think anyone suggesting that work is a 9:00-5:00 thing is an idle git. 🙂

What kind of job?

If we’re getting into “how long I’ve spent at work” willy waving, you’d have to go a long way to beat transactional lawyers. I’ve done over 40 hours straight on more than one occasion.

Which is one reason why I’m no longer a transactional lawyer….

You must have a very tired willy.

No. Never have been. I know a few, but they’re a minority.

But presumably you only do those extra hours etc because you are getting paid enough that it seems worthwhile – otherwise it’s just being exploited. I would venture that software consultants and (transactional lawyers) are generally getting paid way above the average salary.

But presumably you only do those extra hours etc because you are getting paid enough that it seems worthwhile. I would venture that software consultants and (transactional lawyers) are generally getting paid way above the average salary.

I’m not sure money has anything to do with it. It’s more to do with the work culture. Working hard and willy waiving go hand in hand in some sectors.*

*Write your own punchline.

Seems as if teachers always rap on about how many hours they work at weekends and at night, and usually in the over long holidays.

Perhaps work a normal 39 hour week, and spread the work out properley.

I should stress I’m not complaining. Quite the opposite. I just think anyone suggesting that work is a 9:00-5:00 thing is an idle git.

Or they have their priorities straight…

Or they have their priorities straight…

Much as I hate religion I do miss the protestant work ethic.

Most of my Wife’s family are teachers. They do work very hard, but still manage a lot more free time than I ever do. I wouldn’t want to do their job, and don’t begrudge them that extra time, but you compare what they do and my wife’s hours, salary and work conditions in social work and I know which I’d rather do. How about 50-60 hour weeks (and no long school holidays) dealing with people who really don’t want you there, for £26K a year.

I should stress I’m not complaining. Quite the opposite. I just think anyone suggesting that work is a 9:00-5:00 thing is an idle git.

Or Belgian 😀

Seems as if teachers always rap on about how many hours they work at weekends and at night, and usually in the over long holidays.

Perhaps work a normal 39 hour week, and spread the work out properley.

Because it usually isn’t possible – the school admin / team discussion demands etc. mean that often meetings are scheduled for when the rooms are clear of children. This means 3:30 ish on – most (decent) teachers I know work 8:00 ish till 17:00 ish without plannig, so this ends up getting done in the evenings or weekends. Likewise classroom prep over the holidays eats a few weeks a year.

Admittedly I only know primary. There are good and bad teachers like every wlak of life – bu the good ones always seem almost consumed by their work. I haven’t got the backbone for that 🙂

poppa – Member
It might not be called holiday but it’s still time not working.

Lets assume a teacher gets 13 weeks ‘out of term time’, whilst a conventional job gets 5 weeks holiday. Bung in an extra week of bank holidays (estimate).

That means that the teacher works 38 weeks of the year, Mr/Mrs conventional works 46 weeks of the year.

Therefore, if they were being paid the same yearly salary, the teacher would need to work ~21% more hours to be paid the same hourly rate as Mr/Mrs Conventional. If Mr/Mrs Conventional worked a ~40hr week, Teacher would have to work a 48hr week.

For all I know this could be the case. Inset days etc. would reduce this.

Not sure why I did this.

I would say the teacher I know (including one I have lived with for several years) the only real time not working was some of the summer holidays. So more like the order of 5 – 6 weeks and the working week would quiet if it was only 48hr per week.

What is involved in planning then? For a secondary school teacher, surely the curriculum doesnt change much from one year to the next. I would have thought only the first couple of years would necessitate planning. Asking as I’m interested in teaching but I’ve heard conflicting things from different people.

What is involved in planning then? For a secondary school teacher, surely the curriculum doesnt change much from one year to the next. I would have thought only the first couple of years would necessitate planning. Asking as I’m interested in teaching but I’ve heard conflicting things from different people.

No no no no no!

You have to consider the individuals in your class from year to year and what types of lessons will allow you to get the best out of them. Even teaching the same lesson to 2 or 3 classes it will invariably change depending on what the classes are like as groups/individuals.

I like having discussions about teaching, I see a lot of people playing the “long out of hours’ card for sympathy and the other side saying ‘too many holidays’. But (and I am a teacher) there are no real secrets surrounding teaching – the workload and holiday time are well documented. I do it because I’m good at it and i enjoy it. Simple fact is, that you definitely need to be committed to the job as any weaknesses are soon found out.

I don’t usually bite, but am going to this time.

I became a teacher at 35ish after 10 years in the public and private sectors. The change has been great and it was right for me, but I simply work harder now than in any previous job. It seems that people in most jobs work really hard these days, but there seem to be some grossly ignorant generalisations about the life of a teacher. I’m not having a moan as I’m really happy, but teachers work hard too!

I’m in a private school now (again my choice), but I’m at school for these hours;
8am to 7pm Mon, Tues, Wed and Fri;
8am – 10pm Thurs (just about to do my boarding duty now);
8am-1pm on Saturdays.
Once home I usually work 1 hour each evening (marking etc) and a couple of hours on a Sunday. So I’m in school for a minimum of 65 hours per week and do about another 6 hours of work at home.
In addition, there is typically a further evening event at least once per week and I’m away on trips about 10 weekends of the year. I do get lovely long holidays, but guess I work 1-2 days a week on average out of term. Sure there are other people that work longer hours, but I do feel that I’m earning my pay.

As for the money, well I’m happy with it, but all my class mates from Uni earn more, some of them much, much more.

And for richwales, the GCSE and A level courses change with surprising frequency. I don’t think that I’ve had a year in teaching without some kind of change, so the planning doesn’t go away, you just get better at it.

Right, I’m off to the boarding house now to try and write some reports while getting 40 teenage boys to do their homework. Happy days!

For a secondary school teacher, surely the curriculum doesnt change much from one year to the next. I would have thought only the first couple of years would necessitate

exam syllabuses change usually quite significantly every 5 years so thats GCSE and A-level and the KS3 science stuff recently got changed to something Gove hates, so……

anyway I work from 7.30 till 4.30-5.30 most days, cant be bothered to work that out, extra couple of hours at weekends.

As for all these rubbish teachers, well I’ve seen a few but what i can say is if you are rubbish its THE WORST job in the world, most of them pack it in pretty quick.

The qualification we teach (Applied A level) has existed for 4 years or so. It disappears completely in 2013, and it’s only been around that long because it was given an extension. It’s currently on it’s 4th issue, with minor changes made each time.

A levels in their current form started in 2000. They’ve had a major revamp once since then too.

RichT what are the advantages of working at a private school?

all my class mates from Uni earn more, some of them much, much more

I could say much the same (or I could have when I had a job). I’m not a teacher (nor was I rubbish at my job – at least not judging from the messages I’ve had from ex-colleagues suggesting it was madness making me redundant).

“working only the 9-5 is idle” … fack that – only do more when they pay me more ….
the missus is doing a 60 hr week – but she loves the job just finds it very time consuming !

Longer hols, housing in some cases, great food, nice kids and colleagues, discount on fees if you have kids, nice working environment, facilities and good support from management. All the staff are also involved in sports and activities of some kind and I really enjoy this. I’m involved in canoeing, cycling and DofE. School trips are also great, I’m off to Snowdonia in a couple of weeks for Gold DofE, then a bike tour (road) at the start of the holidays and a trip to Iceland at the end of August. There is a bike tour every year, last year the boys did LEJOG, which was a great trip (sadly I only did a few days due to family commitments).

If the pay, perks and conditions are so great why are we struggling to attract applicants to a pretty decent school (50-60% A-C), with a £30mill new building due to complete next year, 12 miles from ‘Britain’s favourite view’, and you look straight up the Ennerdale Valley from the window?

It’s a good job – fair pay and conditions, hard work, but making a difference to kids who, if you give half a toss and treat them fairly, look up to you for it. There’s stress, frustration and job satisfaction in about equal measure – the first two come mainly from the adults involved in the system.

RichT, did you go to a private school yourself, not trying to be funny but I’d rather stick pins in my eyes than do what you do.

Just finishing my probationary year, and would probably have given up if I’d had to live on 10.5k for the year (less than I earned working in a cafe).

Teaching is more work than you’d suspect (moreso in primary I suspect), but the pay & conditions at the moment are pretty fair.

There’s no way those proposals would make it through though, largely because there’s no real benefit in doing it that way. I suspect the proposers are just thinking out loud and once the details have been bashed out they’ll realise it’s nonsense.

Yes. I guess about half the staff here did, but it is a real mix.

I reckon teaching is good pay and conditions. I looked in to it 10 hrs ago. Many of my relatives teach and said I must be mad – long hours etc. When I told them I was doing 70 – 120 hrs per week for 18 k (at the time) they shut up….

Mrs rkk01 has recently retrained as a special needs teacher. Works very hard, demanding role, but deeply rewarding. She doesn’t understand why some colleagues moan about pay. Averaged out over the working year pay is good.