• This topic has 100 replies, 58 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by enfht.
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  • Moral / ethical dillemma – homeless chap
  • esselgruntfuttock
    Free Member

    Good on you TJ. Keep us informed, It’ll be interesting to see how things turn out for him.

    shermer75
    Free Member

    You see a lot of homeless people in London, I was never sure if the best thing to do, so I set up a direct debit with Shelter. I’ve spent a Christmas volunteering for Crisis too, I’d really recommend it, it’s a real eye opener and you get a chance to another side of those whose lives have taken a few turns that are not quite as fortunate as ourselves

    singletrackmind
    Full Member

    How about spending 10 mins on the web and find him a cheapo travellodge / premier inn room .
    Now, I am not a homeless person , never have been, but if I was in that particular situation a hot bath , clean sheets and somewhere to wash and dry my kit out would be a dream. Just give him the room key and address.
    Better than cash which may be converted to booze/drugs

    Or if abit spendy then grab a portion of fish and chips and a brew?

    Nice gesture with the sleeping bag though.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Why is teamhurtmore on my thread? He knows I do not read his posts.

    Excuse me, I didn’t realise that threads were by invitation only. My mistake. As you were.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Found the chap again today and had a chat with him. He got into a hostel nearby friday / sat and for tonight as well and has something slightly more permanent hopefully from monday so didn’t end up on the streets on the cold miserable night.

    senorj
    Full Member

    Fair play to you for giving a shit.

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    Poor show THM, you lose this one.

    natrix
    Free Member

    A happy ending to bring a smile to my face, thanks for that TJ 🙂

    tjagain
    Full Member

    *dons flak jacket*

    I thought I would reopen this thread as once again my middleclass angst and judgemental nature is causing me to have doubts

    The original chap is long since gone. That begging spot is now taken by another bloke who is really rather less than prepossessing in appearance ( judgement number one) after ignoring him for a while I have once again taken to sometimes asking if he is hungry and offering to buy him food. He usually asks for a posh yoghurt! I really don’t know what to make of that at all. He seems to do fairly well tho often having sandwiches or even cans of beer beside him. ( judgement 2 – the undeserving poor?)

    He now recognises me and says hello and seemingly accepts that some days I will offer him food and others that I won’t.

    today he outright said ” could I give him 2 pounds instead” I told him “I don’t usually give money but have you got a good story”. He needed £2 to get chicken pakora from the chippy for his dinner ( peasant – it was lunchtime) He had an empty cider bottle beside him. I laughed and gave him the £2 and he had gone by the time I came out of the shop so it does look like he needed the £2 for something specific. Why do I even doubt he wanted to buy a hot meal?

    So – he had obviously had some alcohol that day – if he hadn’t then he would have had the money the cider cost so could have had his pakora from the chippy. Was I just conned or a soft touch? Should I really be making judgements on what he wants food wise ie posh yoghurts ( cheaper than a sandwhich) or begging for money when he has clearly had alcohol? Why is it easier to give to someone with a nice smile rather than someone with a mouthful of broken and rotted teeth?

    frankconway
    Full Member

    Just see them as a person and then go from there; teeth or no teeth doesn’t make them a different person.I volunteer in the homeless sector and would never give money – coffee, bigmac etc yes; the consensus of homeless charities, councils and others is that money is typically used to support an existing dependancy – alcohol, drugs, gambling. That’s based on their extensive experience and research.

    Anytime I have offered hot drink or some food and the response has been ‘…..can I have the money instead’ I have declined and walked-on.

    Easy, but probably wrong, to be judgemental if a street beggar has been on the sauce and then asks you for money; take booze out of the thought process – if you were going to offer hot drink etc, still do it.
    If ‘posh’ yoghurt is available from nearby shop – why not?

    If you’re concerned about this guy you could contact the local outreach team – probably best done through a homeless charity.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Frank – I agree their appearance does not make a difference objectively but its somehow much easier to give to someone who is not unkempt / has a nice smile. I just find that interesting and sort of wondered if others find the same?

    frankconway
    Full Member

    Maybe we see a smiley face as ‘more warm or less threatening’ than a scowl or a mouthful of broken
    or rotten teeth and that influences how we act?
    Interesting question to ask.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Frank – I agree their appearance does not make a difference objectively but its somehow much easier to give to someone who is not unkempt / has a nice smile. I just find that interesting and sort of wondered if others find the same?

    That is just human nature. Takes a big effort to overcome it (more than I have ever managed).

    I have bought beggars food in winter but generally ignore them and donate to homeless charities to placate my middle class angst.

    edlong
    Free Member

    I’ve been criticised by people for giving money to street homeless people before because “they’ll spend it on drugs / booze”

    I’ve given money to homeless people before and I’m sure some of them have spent it on booze or drugs. Why should I object – it’s their money now? If I didn’t want them spending it how they decided, then I shouldn’t have given them it. Once I gave them it, it stopped being my money and became their money and I had no more rights to dictate what it was used for.

    For some people (I’m not saying you TJ, far from it) there seems to be a patrician, kinda Victorian attitude to charity that boils down to I am the giver, I have the power. And the beneficiaries, because they are beneficiaries, have no say, and no rights.

    If I give someone a couple of quid, I don’t own them, they are still free human beings with the right to make their own choices, even if they are choices that I don’t think are the best ones, or aren’t ones I’d prefer them to make. I can choose to give them a couple of quid (or not), they can choose to spend it on cider (or not).

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    The answer is obvious.

    You should front up for a haircut and some cosmetic dental work for the guy.

    That’ll increase his earning potential exponentially.

    doris5000
    Full Member

    Should I really be making judgements on what he wants food wise ie posh yoghurts ( cheaper than a sandwhich) or begging for money when he has clearly had alcohol?

    people who are smashing the booze in can often find it difficult to keep down solid food, hence the splendid sales of Nurishment et al in certain areas. But if someone else is paying, a posh yoghurt sounds like quite a nice alternative!

    I think the ‘unkempt’ thing is they’re less ‘relatable’. The grizzled old tramp is an archetype that we can categorise and ignore. The younger and more articulate person jolts us IMO. On my commute home there have been a couple of young prostitutes recently on one street, both fresh-faced and early 20’s at most. It’s somehow more saddening than the old-timers you normally see, even though there’s no sensible reason for that 😐

    I’ve given money to homeless people before and I’m sure some of them have spent it on booze or drugs. Why should I object – it’s their money now? If I didn’t want them spending it how they decided, then I shouldn’t have given them it. Once I gave them it, it stopped being my money and became their money and I had no more rights to dictate what it was used for.

    agreed. On the one hand, often you’re enabling an addiction. On the other, you might be enabling them to get through the next few hours without terrifying withdrawal symptoms…

    km79
    Free Member

    I’ve been criticised by people for giving money to street homeless people before because “they’ll spend it on drugs / booze”

    Answer to this is ‘Well why shouldn’t they, that’s what I was going to spend it on anyway.’

    tjagain
    Full Member

    For some people (I’m not saying you TJ, far from it) there seems to be a patrician, kinda Victorian attitude to charity that boils down to I am the giver, I have the power. And the beneficiaries, because they are beneficiaries, have no say, and no rights.

    Good point. I suspect thats a good part of it in my response as well as others. I would rather buy him some good food than anything else. Food for thought.

    councilof10
    Free Member

    I thought I would reopen this thread as once again my middleclass angst and judgemental nature is causing me to have doubts as I’ve not virtue-signaled for days

    FIFY 😉

    molgrips
    Free Member

    They might spend it on booze, they might not. But you have given them the choice.

    If you see someone with booze – they might’ve been given it. Certainly fags are often donated.

    Re food vs money – it might be a supply consistency issue. If they’ve already been bought as much as they can eat that day, then money would help them buy food tomorrow. Or, if they usually get enough food, they might be saving up for a new pair of shoes or sleeping bag or something.

    FeeFoo
    Free Member

    What edlong said ^^

    I give money.
    I used to be annoyed/guilty that it made me feel good about myself, as it made it feel like that was the primary driver.
    Now I realise that it doesn’t matter, they’re happier, you’re happier, win win.

    enfht
    Free Member

    Get him in your spare flat and pimp him out.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    council of ten. virtue signalling or not I am really interested in unpicking why I make the responses I do in these situations and STW is very good at puncturing pretensions and pulling no punches. for example in edlongs post above ( although very gently put). That certainly makes me question my motives in giving food rather than cash and inpicking and choosing the times I do so. Also interested in the deserving and undeserving poor part of it and my reactions to this – the previous chap did not appear to be a drinker. This one is. I have perhaps treated him as less deserving because of the way he sometimes has booze with him

    crankboy
    Free Member

    I occasionally give cash I sure as hell know that if I’m homeless on the streets of this country I would want to be off my face on something and don’t begrudge them the relief. If I know the person I do tend to ask where the cash is going and make a judgement call as to cash or sandwich or advise.

    My more responsible self donates when prompted to our local shelter.
    As to grooming the scruffier more decrepit are more likely to need immediate help than the healthy well presented.

    councilof10
    Free Member

    I have no problem with people donating for their own selfish means – to assuage their own guilt or make themselves feel better about their own good fortune for example. But bragging about it on Facebook or forums in order to harvest likes or virtual backslapping just strikes me as a bit crass.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I sure as hell know that if I’m homeless on the streets of this country I would want to be off my face on something and don’t begrudge them the relief.

    That’s my outlook also. There are plenty of affluent middle-class folk who self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs to ‘make the pain go away’ or otherwise even just chill out after a hard day at the office. If I’d had a hard day sat on the concrete outside Poundland trying not to die of hypothermia I’d probably relish the notion of a couple of pints myself.

    Answer to this is ‘Well why shouldn’t they, that’s what I was going to spend it on anyway.’

    I recommend the comedy stylings of Steve Hughes.

    themilo
    Free Member

    Bragging? Ooof, harsh!

    neilwheel
    Free Member

    I don’t think it matters how you choose to help someone, it really is the thought that counts in these situations.

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    Do what you feel is best. Money, hot drink, food or nothing. I always try the food or drink approach, mainly because I rarely carry cash. These homeless should really get contactless.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I can see why this could be seen as bragging but I can only repeat its about knowing stw will give me straight answers ( of which that is one) and I am genuinely not sure if others act from the same or similar motives and are my responses appropriate and certainly one or two posts have given me something to think about

    giantalkali
    Free Member

    I just wonder if they could hook me up with a pigeon or two.

    councilof10
    Free Member

    I can see why this could be seen as bragging

    Possibly the most “text book” example of virtue signaling humble-brag I’ve ever seen. In fact, I’m going to see if “humble brag” has an entry on Wikipedia that I can hyperlink to this thread…

    crankboy
    Free Member

    Why is it that people who bang on about ” virtue signalling ” are never the people you want to bump into in real life ?

    doris5000
    Full Member

    because they don’t believe in altruism?

    pk13
    Full Member

    It’s always food and tea,coffee with me my friend will buy them beer as he says it’s better to be drunk if your sleeping rough and he is not a social worker ect.
    I can see both sides of the argument. Seeing people bunk down at night in brum in doorways makes me think how easy it is to end up homeless and it’s a long way back

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Why is it that people who bang on about ” virtue signalling ” are never the people you want to bump into in real life ?

    Because they’re generally very selfish and unpleasant individuals.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    because they don’t believe in altruism?

    I don’t really believe in altruism. Kind acts are done to make the person doing the giving feel better. I give to these folk because I can’t bear the thought of people going hungry partly ‘cos I have been there. The thought of someone being cold wet and hungry while I am warm and well fed makes me unhappy

    pk13
    Full Member

    I’ll be honest it makes me feel good and that may be while I do it . End result is the same I guess

    user-removed
    Free Member

    I really can’t be arsed finding out why this thread has come up again.

    Suffice to say, well done to tjagain for having some humanity.

    As a bit of a pisshead myself and tendencies towards self-destruction, I applaud anyone who helps out those who help others – we’re all only a short way from a sleeping bag on the street.

    iainc
    Full Member

    Well done tj, a good piece of proper behaviour, ignore those trying to make it into something else…

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