How do artist like Mark Kostabi fit into this thinking? He openly paid people to think of ideas and other people to paint them. They still sell as art, are in art galleries, is he still the artist? Are the others who think of the picture or the ones who paint it still just painting by numbers?

depends really, If in doing that he challenges us to have exactly the kind of discussion we are having then he is being creative. if all he was doing was commissioning some one to do the creative part then, no.

So should they be in a museum then?

If you like, they should just be anywhere where people have access to them.

I’m absolutely amazed we’ve made it to anywhere near this point without the phrase ‘visual illiteracy’* coming up.

With all the attention paid to grammar and spelling on here, I think that’s quite telling 😉

* mainly from me, as i tend to shout it at someone at least once during the course of a day

I’m absolutely amazed we’ve made it to anywhere near this point without the phrase ‘visual illiteracy’ coming up.

we have spoken of ‘acquired tastes’ and complexity of art, but no, we haven’t used that phrase. Would you like to?

“Visual Illiteracy”, isn’t that an 80’s New romance band?

Surely the original question was actully – ‘Why are people trying to find meaning in the movie inception?’

Admittedly it was an abstract take on that question, and the answers provided have been so much more fulfilling than I possibly imagined.

This could overtake the ‘watch thread’ that I started as a little dig at smurf-mat. That thread in contrast left me feeling a little empty.

Not really Charlie. I was only joking. There’s no right or wrong n this really. And that’s no bad thang! 😀

I’ve found this whole thread really really interesting

the empty sadness of watch threads 😥

There’s no right or wrong n this really.

I take it from this that you admit that you cannot be right. A simple yes or no will do for now

the empty sadness of watch threads

the sad emptiness of watch threads 🙁

I’m absolutely amazed we’ve made it to anywhere near this point without the phrase ‘visual illiteracy’* coming up.

I mentioned ‘Visual language’ near the start.

Do I get a cookie?

erm… yes.

I should really quantify that in true TJ fashion and point out that means I can’t be wrong either

Is that the last word? 😉

Do I get a cookie?

I tried to send you one but you rejected it, you might have to change your internet security settings

what colour is the cookie?

I had to enable java to get coffee sent over the other day but didn’t know about the cookies.

IGMC.

Some stuff needs contextualising to get it’s meaning, or implied meaning, or point of view. Knowing it was made in a certain place/time, or by a certain means, or as a result of something, or in answer to something, gives the work it’s meaning. Without that information, it’s just a thing.

An unmade bed, wether in a grotty flat or an art gallery, is still just an unmade bed. Anything else is just superfluous art world waffle and flim-flam. If you want to believe it’s ‘art’, then that’s up to you. But be prepared for people to laugh at you for being sucked in to the ‘X-Factor’ style ‘Cool Britania’ guph.

I really can’t comprehend how that talentless charlatan has the audacity to refer to himself as an artist? To me he is the physical representation of the utter shallow vacuousness of the whole Blair era Cool Brittania bollocks

Amen. For a northerner, Binners, you’re really quite sophisticated… 😉

What really gets my goat, is that there are many genuinely talented artiosts out there, who get overlooked because shysters like Emin and Hirst ‘create’ stuff their meeja sycophants label as ‘cool’. This then has the effect of discouraging younger artists from actually learning how to develop their own unique talents, and merely follow the latest ‘trends’. I am aware that such trends and fashions have always existed in the world of Art, but at least in the past stuff was done what involved genuine skill and talent. An unmade bed is just taking the mick. Emin is a mediocre ‘artist’ at best. People like her know they’ll never make money on the back of their true abilities, so instead just play the meeja game. And people like that Saatchi bloke are no better than Simon Cowell.

New stuff now is in the digital realm, virtual reality and such. Probably technology things done in the military or medicine or something that’ll trickle down till someone with daft creative ideas can get hold of it.

who was that experimental art/internet guy? put loads of people in little cubicles all connected in a mini internet house, going loopy?

Remember that Rokeby bloke? What a tit. 😆

erm… yes.

I win!!!

what colour is the cookie?

Depends really you can have the Realistic one, which is brown, or the Symbolistic one which is still brown, but it’s not actually there. You can have the futuristic one which will be brown, you can have the Dadaist one which will also be brown, only it won’t be a biscuit, though there’s no reason why it cannot be. You can have the vorticist one, a nd we could talk about its colour but you really don’t want to get drawn into that, or you can have the post-modern one which is fishleg

Cheers Fred. Coming from your good self, that’s high praise indeed 😉

I wonder what a surrealist biscuit would look like?

Well no Binners it’s got to be said.

Give Hora a slap for me would you please? No particular reason, but then no reason not to either really.

bloody Rokeby. I’ll agree with you on Emin, pile of pants, quite lidderallee. All the genuine talent goes into computer games or film design and stuff. Why would anyone want to make stuff for galleries anyway??

surrealist biscuit would be draped, dripping over a branch with ants for currants.

He’s got a hurty knee at the moment Fred. I’ll give him a kick in that instead 😀

Rokeby. Ooh, I wanted to punch that bloke. Mind you, so did everyone else. A more pretentious tosser you couldn’t possibly meet. Remember when he came into our class? Ooh, how cringemaking was that? I had to bite my lip on several occasions, and try not to laugh.

Thought he was a cyborg or something din’t he? Cheezuz… 🙄

I kept expecting (and hoping) to read in the papers ‘cyborg ponce beaten up in street’.

Heh! Nice one Binners! 😈

(Cackles in cruel and nasty glee)

“cyborg ponce beaten up in art class by east end yob”

I was curious because you said…

nothing wrong in drawing from photographs, it’s draftsmanship and the work of an artisan not an artist.

that suggests i know that it is copied directly from a photograph.

Ooh Kev I came close to punching him. Even little Cat would’ve done so as well. Stella definitely weren’t pleased with him.

BTW I’m trying to ‘phone you. Your ‘phone not working?

An unmade bed, wether in a grotty flat or an art gallery, is still just an unmade bed. Anything else is just superfluous art world waffle and flim-flam. If you want to believe it’s ‘art’, then that’s up to you. But be prepared for people to laugh at you for being sucked in to the ‘X-Factor’ style ‘Cool Britania’ gup

What we were expecting some deep insight from you! You’ve just made the same argument that was made pages earlier, only this time you’ve added something to belittle those who don’t agree with you.

I was curious because you said…

nothing wrong in drawing from photographs, it’s draftsmanship and the work of an artisan not an artist.

that suggests i know that it is copied directly from a photograph.
And that makes it artisan rather than art how how?

Yes I know.

But come on; if you want to believe an unmade bed is ‘art’ cos some meeja ponces tell you it is, and that you’ll be a philistine or thicko if you don’t agree, then you are deserving of ridicule. If you genuinely believe it’s art, and can produce a coherent argument as to why you think it is, then fair enough. I’ve never ever heard a coherent argument which validates the unmade bed as ‘art’.

I’m eating Heinz Ravioli. WhY? Because I like it. It’s not haute cuisine, and know this, but it doesn’t bother me, nor diminish my enjoyment of it. If some ponce wants to come along and label me an ignorant savage for liking it, rather than turning my nose up it and only eating hand-made Ravioli from Naples, then they can bang on all they like. I don’t care. I’ll continue to enjoy my Heinz Ravioli whatever they think, because I can think for myself.

There. I’ve posted a picture of said Heinz Ravioli on an internet forum. I’ve placed the meaning of something into a particular context. I’ve decided I’m going to call it art. Everyone happy?

What’s that Mr Saatchi? Five million? well actually I’ve got a buyer in New York willing to pay eight million, actually…

But come on; if you want to believe an unmade bed is ‘art’ cos some meeja ponces tell you it is, and that you’ll be aphilistine or thicko if you don’t agree, then you are deserving of ridicule. If you genuinely believe it’s art, and can produce a coherent argument as to why you think it is, then fair enough. I’ve never ever heard a coherent argument which validates theunmade bed as ‘art’.

but you are a ponce telling me that if i do think it is art i need to be ready to be ridiculed.

I don’t believe it is art because meeja ponce tells me so! How patronising! C’mon this thread was really quite peaceful and productive before you started this crap

If you genuinely believe it’s art, and can produce a coherent argument as to why you think it is, then fair enough. I’ve never ever heard a coherent argument which validates theunmade bed as ‘art’.

I do and I can. I’m glad you think it is fair enough, though little of what you say seems to support that.

As for the ravioli argument? WTF? Media ponce is a straw man. Call it art if you like. Time will tell if it has any effect on other people.

And that makes it artisan rather than art how how?

as i said previously:

as i said before, a direct facsimile that shows me the ability to copy light shade and form from a photograph using the medium of pencil on paper.
without trying to convey anything about the depicted object/scene other than a direct representation within the constraints of the medium.

that’s my opinion, i’m happy for people to disagree with it.

but you are a ponce

You’ve called me a ponce. Unforgivable. For that reason, I refuse to enter into any further discussion on this subject with you. There’s no need for personal abuse. 😥

You’ve called me a ponce. Unforgivable. For that reason, I refuse to enter into any further discussion on this subject with you. There’s no need for personal abus

I called you a ponce because you called the media folks ponces, both of you were belittling folks who say things in a different way to you. Or is it ok for you to call folks ponces but not the other way?

If you hit me, it shall be murder.

no, seriously.

You use it as a reason to disengage. so you kind of need to justify it.

Elfin… Mungus… my office, Now!

Shan’t. He started it. 🙁

oh right, so you use his first name but I get called by my surname! I know how this is going to turn out already! I’ll be the one dropping my trousers and bending over again.

MrSmith,Just to clarify then, whether a picture is art or artisan is down to how you perceive it was made?
If you think the artist has tried to convey something then it’s art? If you think they haven’t then it’s not?
Have I got it now? 😕

If you think the artist has tried to convey something then it’s art?