Hmmm, we're getting into nature or nuture now.
There some examples where people can appear to be born evil due to mental defects, but people arent generally aren't.
We are shaped by our society and experiences over the years.
The question is can this be reversed and do criminals want to become "straight" (particularly profitable ones)?
If not what then? leave them be?
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James Bulgers killers. Some questions.
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Posted 2 years ago #
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"There some examples where people can appear to be born evil due to mental defects"
Are there really? Please provide me with evidence of that. As a very experienced forensic nurse, you've just made me realise that there must be some pretty big gaps in my knowledge and practise.Posted 2 years ago # -
I would suggest fred west wasn't all there nor dr shipman.
Perhaps you should calm down, nobody has insulted you.Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm perfectly calm, but thank you for your concern - I just thought your last post was naive. I'll grant that some unfortunates, due to what you term 'mental defects', can present a risk to themselves or others, but the concept of somebody being 'born evil' is ridiculous. Shipman had a personality disorder, as did Fred West, but, and here's the thing, people arent born with personality disorders, they are created by circumstance and experience, as I believe you yourself stated at the end of your post.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So you don't think that some people are born with mental defects which manifests in later life?
I wasn't aware of any life events which made the good dr execute elderly patients or fred to sexually abuse and murder those girls.
I'm not suggesting that they were born evil but that they suffered some kind of mental illness (maybe from birth).
Does this not happen?Posted 2 years ago # -
Mental illness (and that obviously covers a lot of bases) generally manifests in adolescence / teenage years, but yes, it can occur earlier, and obviously, the causative factors can. Learning disabilities can certainly be present from birth (not sure if that's what you meant by 'mental defects'), but no, I'm sorry, I just cant accept the concept of someone being 'evil from birth'. As should be fairly obvious from my post, I think the whole nature versus nurture thing has been done to death, and I'm a firm believer in the 'nurture' aspect.
Posted 2 years ago # -
It would seem that it was a complaint from a work colleague that has sent Venables bad to the clink, for fighting. The police and probation service were already aware that he was involved in crime (drugs and violence) but were reluctant to recall him. This is from one of the daily rags mind so of couse completely true. If it is the case then it's more an example of how this system is not working, as those who are involved are unable put it into practice, I wonder why?
Posted 2 years ago # -
i have a uni mate who is a DI on merseyside
i was gonna ring him to find out but then realised that i really dont need to know !
Posted 2 years ago # -
In my view we need to move past the notion of evil and forget about punishment v rehabilitation.
Sometimes you cant take a chance and rely on people being rehabilitated, equally ive no interest in seeing children punished to satisfy societys need for revenge.
We need a way to keep this kind of offender seperate from society. It can be as nice as you like, no focus on punishment, these kids didnt choose their upbringing and they were just kids, but the rest of us need to be protected from their behaviour, and the best indicator of future behaviour is still past behaviour.Posted 2 years ago # -
Sorry if I got snotty back there, I just get really rattled by threads like this. I'll readily admit to feeling that I know what I'm talking about due to the fact that I've been involved in forensic psychiatry for twenty years, but still, I shouldnt have been such a c**k.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hmm, so you think we're effectively a blank canvas when we're born and our personality is formed by what we sense and experience? (i'm not a nurse)
You did get a little excited, but no worries.Posted 2 years ago # -
I cant make my mind up on wether i advocate the softly softly approach or the Black and white guilty approach. I find the thought of holding an act against a 10year old child for the rest of their life as bad as the act that they carried out tbh. But on the other hand i think society must start to crack down on things even if it goes against the grain in order to regain some of its order.
One thing i would like to ask. Everyone tends to look at this from the Bulgers POV. Its a living nightmare. What if you came home tonight and your 10yr old child confessed to something equally as bad? What would you do? I honestly believe children are capable of rather astonishingly bad things. I burnt down an entire field and nearly some houses when i was younger by throwing a match into a dry grass bush. Loads of fire engines and police everywhere. I didnt mean to cause the damage i did but there ya go. Say your child comes home and confesses to bullying another child and pushing that child into an oncoming car etc, what would you do?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Retribution, Deterrence And Rehabilitation are the three main principles of sentencing.
From what I remember the deterrent effects are more about the chances of getting caught than length of sentence and many criminals are not deterred at all - impulsive crimes , crime of passion etc.
As a society we have the three principles out of balance. we need more deterrence and more rehabilitation and less retribution.
For me as a pragmatist I want to see what works - and again IIRC rehabilitation is the best way of reducing future crime. I would take drug possession out of the criminal justice system and treat it as a health issue and not criminalise users just for using. This would free up massive police resources to concentrate on other crimes.
I would escalate sentencing more quickly - less chances before you do real time but the real time should be purposeful. I'd make community sentencing more onerous as well. I would also employ restorative justice as well - which is where the perpetrator has to face the victim and face up to the consequences of their act. This has been shown to have in the right circumstances to have positive effects - both to the victim and the perpetrator. Even in cases of murder it has allowed victims families some closure. Do you think the constant furore has helped Denise Bulger?
The other thing to remember is crime is massively down the last decade or two. it suits the papers to create a moral panic over crime to sell their papers but the impression they give is very far from the truth.
The simple fact is that the daily mail agenda of lock 'em up and throw away the key simply does not work - the things that the Mail hates ( criminals sent on holiday) actually reduces crime by changing the criminals so they no longer commit crimes.
More intervention earlier and more firmly along with high quality rehabilitation, treat drug use as a public health issue not a criminal issue and restorative justice where appropriate. This is where I believe we should be heading. Not long custodial sentences with little meaningful rehabilitation allied with too many opportunities to act missed early on.
If the Edlington boys had been rescued from their horrible circumstances and efforts put into helping them they probably would never have committed the crime they did. Too many chances missed to rehabilitate them.
edit - restorative justice
http://www.sfu.ca/crj/stories.htmlPosted 2 years ago # -
backhander - I dont know about 'excited' but I'll concede (again) that I was being a bit of a c**k. Yes, I believe that generally we're blank canvases and that we're shaped by our environments and experiences. Kids are ridiculously easily led at times, and occasionally dont think about the consequences of their actions. In worst case scenarios such as the Bulger case, this is taken to extremes. In the more recent case in Edlington, you only have to look at the kids home environment and less than ideal 'parenting' to see where the roots of their behaviour were formed.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The simple fact is that the daily mail agenda of lock 'em up and throw away the key simply does not work -
Indeed. Look at the USA.Posted 2 years ago # -
TJ - Why do you waste your time talking on this forum? Surely there is a greater purpose for you than telling us idiots how it should be / is!
Posted 2 years ago # -
This would free up massive police resources to concentrate on other crimes.
Not too mention reducing the prison population.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Now you wonder why they are being protected...lynch mob on this thread...
No wonder Australia are getting miffed with us sending nutters over there.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Kimbers,
His killers although 10 years old knew they were perpetrating the most heinous of acts.
They are never going to be an asset to society. No matter how much tree-hugging you do. Get rid.
I'm not advocating we execute all 10 year olds who commit crimes, but those two (and the boys from Eglington) are a special breed and serve no purpose here in society. The families who created the problem are equally at fault. They should serve indefinate hard labour for their efforts too.
I'm being kind here too; hanging is too good for those aberrations. They certainly didn't cry when Jamie protested about his fate. And yes, I'd look into their eyes. In fact I'd pull the bloody handle.
Kimbers, you might think I'm fcut up but I've got through 36 years without torturing any man or beast.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I like to cycle. Anyone else here like to cycle?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Pete
I've cycled today. Time to hang kids instead
Edit:
please note I have tongue FIRMLY in cheek if any tree-hugger decides to get upset!!
Posted 2 years ago # -
TJ?
If crime has massively gone down.
Why is it the government(Scottish) is proposing to quash jail sentences of six months or less to ease the burden on overflowing jails.
Oh, and in an age when sentencing is less severe than it used to be.
Why is it that childrens homes/social work departments are bulging full?
Also what about the crime figures? do they include the amount of non reported crimes due to people disillusioned with the legal system?You typify the majority of middle class persons on this forum.
Look in the mirror, point, and say to yourself(again)my contribution to this country is what makes it so great.Posted 2 years ago # -
You sometimes hear stories from people who claim they know police that worked on the Jamie Bulger case, one such story is Jamie's parents apparently left him outside shops while they where inside shop lifting, once his mother had stashed goods on or about her person she would say oh my god wheres my son as an excuse to run out of the shop to her waiting son, makes this case all the more tragic if indeed that was the case.
I also know someone who houses young offenders when they come out of prison or young offenders institution some of these are very damaged individuals and display sociopathic behaviour and had a history of harming & killing their pets or other animals and often go on to much more heinous crimes, is it possible to rehabilitate such people, they can be very clever and fool whoever is trying to reform them.
Posted 2 years ago # -
What about the venomous scum wasting valuable hospital resources who spit, assault, vomit, abuse nurses & doctors in a+e units up and down the country?
Rehabilitate? Why can't we just FUC*ING EDUCATE?
Oh that does'nt always work so rehab it is.(is re-hab not a learning curve anyways?)
Certain people will do atrocious things because they want to, it's stopping it a second time that's the problem.Posted 2 years ago # -
"is it possible to rehabilitate such people, they can be very clever and fool whoever is trying to reform them."
Yes and no. I currently work on a personality disorder ward within a forensic setting, and of course there's an element of patients attempting to manipulate staff in order to meet their own needs - that's just part and parcel of certain types of personality disorder. However, I maintain that people aren't born with personality disorders, it's life experience and circumstances that create these complex and maladaptive behaviours. If you take that as a given, then you also have to accept the possibility that given the correct levels of care, people can and do change.Posted 2 years ago # -
Who would like to live in a society which is allowed to hang ten year olds?
Anyone?
As much as I despair for the justice system today, I certainly don't think that capital punishment for children is the way forward.
Posted 2 years ago # -
PJM1974 - Member
Who would like to live in a society which is allowed to hang ten year olds?
Anyone?
FFS! Hanging? Nooooo .... feed them to those poor starving hungry salt crocodiles instead then look at the crocs perform death rolls on them.
Yes, I would but then I guess such society existed long time ago.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hanging a ten yr old... No - I'd humanely gas them, less distressing, but then again if I had my way I'd sever merseyside and float it out into the sea
Posted 2 years ago # -
Bloody hell and your from Macclesfied!
Posted 2 years ago # -
I can't believe there are people on this thread who have killed ants.
Bastards!
Posted 2 years ago # -
That's right surfer, right at the foot of the hills
sheep to shag and trails to ride - and not a thieving scouser in site lol
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'll be over that way tomorrow.
Posted 2 years ago # -
*Wonders how much ££££ I can make from this*
Selling the wearabouts to those who want to kill him
Selling the wearabouts to those who want to protct him
Going to the papers and telling allCant be arsed with any of them, dont need the money,
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm not getting drawn into this debate! However I will say that at the time "The Jigsaw Man" by David Britton was released it was a very interesting read, however he has been seriously discredited since writing it and personally I think it's a load of twonk. But can make interesting reading if you have a VERY open mind!!!
Secondly, someone mentioned earlier what "crime" or reason JV has been recalled for, until MOJ announce it, it is just rumour and speculation, let's face it we all know how much pap the press print that is BS. I believe that he has committed an offence (who knows what) that means he is going to have to stand trial (ie he's going NG). As such they will not release the details as he would not then get a fair trial and he could look at appealing under ECHR (not saying I agree or disagree with the way they've handled it).
Back to spectating on this thread, some interesting views.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'll be over that way tomorrow.
I'll be sure to lock up properly then
can't actually ride this weekend at all, wifes away so I'm playing single parent!! Gutted
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
This topic has been closed to new replies.
