so then what were we to think of South Africa and the apartheid government?
We should not think the white electors were largely racist then?

Less than half of them voted for any given president. But they don’t even make the rules and foreign policy and whatnot. Entrenched opinions are what run the show really.

@ratswithwings, you’re right American is not “a race”, but that doesn’t matter:

The UN does not define “racism”, however it does define “racial discrimination”: According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,
the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin …

it is obvious any country would be considered a race or else saying all Pakistanis are something derogatory…… would not be racist

the race relations act here also specifies nationality

Anti-Americanism seems an acceptable racism to certain people, strangely though, that racism usually comes from the very same people who throw the accusation so freely at others when it suits.

Depends what you mean by anti americanism. You can oppose what they stand for , represent or do without actually being racist.

i am not keen on what the state Israel does.
I assume i can criticise what Israel does without being accused of racism? well you would think but not even on STW can you do this.

They have the right to free speech and to bear arms. Best guarantee against evil government.

Great speech. I liked that.

Americans? It’s a big country, really **** big. I’ve been a few times. I’d say attitudes within the country are different in the same way that attitudes in different parts of Europe are different.

On the whole I’ve found Americans to be extremely friendly and fairly open minded.

Oh, and if you never want to have to buy yourself a drink, wear military fatigues.

so what

I actually found the uncritical reverence for anyone in the military a bit wearing after a while. They think everyone in the military’s a hero, which considering how bloated their military is, probably includes a fair few paper shufflers like myself. The first few people shaking your hand and thankIng you are a pleasant change from the UK, where people tend to assume you’re a parking attendant or paintballer or something. Then it gets tedious, as you have to listen to another set of tales from some old fart, and be treated at length to his bizarre world views, which he naturally assumes you share.

The US is like any other country, it has good and bad points and people.

WARNING – POSSIBLE TJ FODDER

Firstly – Using any countries military force as a basis for its inhabitants… inherently wrong.
As is any member of society who doesn’t express a form of gratitude to a person who is in a uniform for their country.

So, as an insider, I will say, travelling anywhere… especially from England to the States.. Foreigners will usually not get on with any common language Foreigner. English people will never understand the common hospitality of a Americans.
Let’s refer to airtragics post… You would almost never get a stranger expressing any interest in conversation like any of those old american farts in the UK. Just wont.
With England to France, You dont speak french, so you can ignore them, or enjoy the novelty of them speaking English to you. Softens the blow, Etc. Etc.

I have lived in the states for a while as well as a significant time in the UK. I am heading back to the states shortly and I will say this.. As much as I hate the ethos of many of the American public… I find it hard to defend the English public. 😛
(but that is because I am a foreigner with a common language)

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w[/video]

Anyone else watching Panorama right now?

I am. This is appalling, this would be appalling in somewhere like Egypt, in the World’s largest economy and in the richest Nation State the World has ever seen it is simply unconscionable 🙁

They do and the evidence is in the fact that they export their further education system to more people than any other country. In fact, education is their largest export.

Really because they clearly **** failed to educate most of their own populace? Has Britain ever voted in something as mind numbingly ignorant and short sighted as Bush’s administration?

It’s not scientific at all but….

http://reason.com/archives/2006/01/13/stupid-in-america 😀

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Home-tent-Anlaby-High-Road/story-11960260-detail/story.html

Holy cow.. that article uses the fact that Americans did worse than Belgians in a test to prove that a state monopoly on education was terrible.

If people got to choose their kids’ school, education options would be endless.

FAIL!

How nicely ironic 🙂

Really because they clearly **** failed to educate most of their own populace?

That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.

Bear in mind I also said ‘further’, as in higher, as in above secondary school….

The documentary was very limited but it showed graphically the worst of America.

That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.

Really? I would have though access to education for all was a prerequisite of a good education system.

I was always under the impression that the output of PhD studies in the US was about the same as in the UK. However they take an extra 2 years over it to allow undergrads to catch up 🙂

That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.

I think it is. Equality of opportunity is a major part of being ‘good’ imo.

EDIT: High 5 tj.

Really? I would have though access to education for all was a prerequisite of a good education system.

I guess it really depends on how you want to interpret ‘excellence’.

I was implying that it has the best quality of teaching and learning (again in its higher education system), not that it was most successful in attaining higher levels of achievement across a broader spectrum of its population.

There are objective ways of measuring this and the American schools do repeatedly dominate the league tables for this kind of thing but as a country, they don’t do anything like as well with overall academic attainment levels.

But hey don’t let the argument dissuade you from your opinion TJ.

I was implying that it has the best quality of teaching and learning (again in its higher education system),

Oxbridge?

Japan?

About me: I live in the USA, have a Green Card and intend to apply for citizenship. I lived in the UK for 33-odd years and have lived in the USA for 5. I think I was one of the first batch of subscribers to Singletrack and think I still have the first few issues somewhere.

I liked this from Stoatsbrother:

There is no one so educated as an educated American, no one so friendly and as polite as a polite American.

There is no one so insular and dumb as a dumb American, no one so violent or so bigoted as some other American pondlife.

The ‘educated’ section of the populace is unfortunately outnumbered by the ‘dumb’ section, but there are enough plus sides to the country to more than make up for it (for me anyhow).

Many of the people I meet on a daily basis are insular, xenophobic, devoid of logic, unashamedly selfish and greedy. Some of the people I meet humble me with their intelligence, honesty and compassion. My (American) wife is one of the few who truly humble me. I’m also lucky enough to have a circle of friends here with many and varied careers, each more than willing to give the shirt off their back. They also understand irony, love culture and gleefully lap up all my Northern British colloquialisms and swear words.

As has already been mentioned, America is a large place. Many of the states are truly like different countries, with wildly differing attitudes on many aspects of life. The driving alone is worlds apart from state to state. I live in Detroit and it’s like Death Race 2000. Driving in certain parts of Oregon on the other hand, can be a pleasure. The thread on riding two abreast made me smile. I do not ride on the roads in Michigan, as the attitude towards cyclists is abominable. To temper this, I have three managed 6 mile+ singletrack trails within 10 minutes drive from my house. They are managed by the state of Michigan and it cost me $10 for a yearly pass. No real hills though.

I can’t really defend America as a whole, as ‘the Bush thing’ is kind of hard to refute. What I can do at least is promise you that there are plenty of very smart, educated, friendly and genuine people here. The problem is, they are too boring to end up the focus of anyone’s scrutiny. Dumb rednecks, extreme politicians and greedy businessmen stick out a lot more and obscure the view.

I have three Franco-American stepchildren (their father is French) and my wife is half way done with our own Anglo-American effort. All are being educated to be respectful, honest and loyal, despite the best efforts of the American public school system (you have no idea the crap they are allowed to get away with at school).

I could go on, but I had a spare few minutes at work and thought I’d chime in and let you know they aren’t all bad. Not like those bloody Frogs… 🙂

That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.

…..as a country, they don’t do anything like as well with overall academic attainment levels.

But hey don’t let the argument dissuade you from your opinion TJ.

I think most people would probably agree that not doing well with overall academic attainment levels is the same as saying that it’s not the best further education system in the world.

I think your argument is unlikely to dissuade most people from that opinion, not just TJ.

There is no one so educated as an educated American, no one so friendly and as polite as a polite American.

There is no one so insular and dumb as a dumb American, no one so violent or so bigoted as some other American pondlife.

It sounds like it’s only the United States in name then…….two lots of people with very little in common.

Has mcboo lost the use of language or just tired of arguing with TJ?

Liking the video; it reminded of the best the US has to offer.
Vermont, where I’m from, legalised same-sex partnerships 5 years before the UK, and now has (along with four other states nearby) same-sex marriage. has some good skiing and biking, too. . .
Love the UK, too; but wouldn’t try to sum it up in a post here!! 🙂

I think your argument is unlikely to dissuade most people from that opinion, not just TJ.

Well then you can just go an argue the toss with the millions of people who each year go to the US for their education and pay a lot of money for the privileged. I think they’re convinced and it’s their money they are spending.

It may offend your sensibilities but when it comes to decision making, there is nothing like spending your own money to sharpen the process and make it extremely efficient.

Let’s start with a simple premise – money is not an object and you want to buy the best education in the world. You can go anywhere, where do you go?

In that situation, America leads the world, the UK is a close second.

millions of people who each year go to the US for their education

Millions? 😀

It may offend your sensibilities but when it comes to decision making, there is nothing like spending your own money to sharpen the process and make it extremely efficient.

My sensibilities feel quite unoffended. It makes perfect logic to them that not doing well with overall academic attainment levels is the same as saying that it’s not the best further education system in the world.

“Not doing well” is purely relative, and it certainly doesn’t suggest “the best”.

And people willingly paying for something very far from suggests that it must therefore be the best. In fact people often assume that they must be getting the best for no reason other than because they are paying for something – specially if they are paying through the nose.

with the OP on this one.
Look at the admission percentages for Oxbridge vs Harvard/Yale.
the latter get several thousand more applications and are far, far more selective