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Full Sus. Facts and Fiction?

113 posts & 68 voices | Started 3 years ago by GNARGNAR | Latest reply from james-o

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i like hats

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buzz-lightyear - Member

Regarding progression:

Finally splashing the cash and getting my 1st FS last summer has resulted in me being more ambitious on several fronts: riding harder through rocks, smoother climbing, attempting jumps and drops, leaping off bumps at speed, up to 8h rides. All grin-tastic stuff.

The limitations of my HT are now apparent: it's too heavy to zoom, too front-heavy to pop, too brutal to ride more than 4h, too slack and steers like a bus. On the plus side, it's got a ****-off big fork, bars and stem and if you get behind the bars, the whole machine smashes and crashes it's way downhill unstoppably - which is tremendous fun!

I recently rode my mates new P7 with big Fox float fork - it cost more than my FS! Despite not being uber light, it literally bounds forward when you stamp on the pedals. It's probably the perfect bike for round here.

In summary: Suspension forgives mistakes and is more comfortable so you can ride harder for longer without needing hard-to-get magical bike skills. Realistically, at my age and with the limited time I have for riding, I'm never going to be Brian Lopes. I'm just looking for fitness and fun. So up-yours to all the bike-skill snobs!

Posted 3 years ago #
the_lecht_rocks - Member

LOL - being able to ride rock fast and hard on a HT means you will ride harder and faster rock on a FS.
having a HT to practice fast rock runs on means even more speed on the FS.
FACT.

Posted 3 years ago #
Inzane - Member

Full suss are more fun. I own fully rigid retro bikes, hardtails and full sussers. I ride all of them sometimes, but spend 95% of my time on the full susser (5 spot).

I spent 5 years working as a mountain bike guide around the world, and I only had a hardtail. I was often guiding people on full suss and yet the Hardtail certainly was not holding me back. I was often working a bit harder to ride the same stuff smoothly or as fast though.

Full Suss is more fun. I love epic singletrack riding. 7 hours of technical beech forest single track is my favourite sort of day. After 7 hours of technical trails on the full suss I am in better shape than I would be after 7 hours of working the hardtail... and I had more fun!

You certainly dont need a full suss to enjoy riding or learn how to ride stuff, but it can make technical riding more fun and more forgiving.

People who think they need a different bike before they will be able to ride an obstacle need to HTFU!!

Posted 3 years ago #
buzz-lightyear - Member

lecht: yeah probably right

Posted 3 years ago #
Sandwich - Member

Davidtaylforth, my Orange sub 5 is 5 years old. The rear shock has been serviced once in tis time, the forks never. The bearings are still good and original with no slop or play and never been repacked. Look after your kit and it will look after you. The bike goes away washed and lubed after every ride. My forks are by Fox and may need a service when I have some money.
Lecht I could ride rock fast on a HT but my back would make me pay for my temerity. FS keeps me on the bike longer/for more days a week.

Posted 3 years ago #
nukeproof - Member

I love hardtails and will always have one but also dabble with full suspension and the reason for that is more own limitations: these are that I feel more confident on some technical stuff on a FS and a FS allows me to ride for longer. Some could argue both these points but they are my reasons for having/wanting FS.

Some have said FS is faster but I fail to see the significance of this as speed is relative to the rider only (unless you're racing). I would not buy a FS to shave time off some downhill as thats not important to me. I go as faster as I'm comfortable whatever bike I'm riding (Its like driving a Porsche and a Fiat Panda: the same noisy and vibration at 60mph in the Panda would be at about 120mph in the Porsche!) and the time taken to get to the bottom is irrelevant as its the fun getting there thats important.

Posted 3 years ago #
buzz-lightyear - Member

Working the hardtail is fun for shorter bursts. Wheelies and suchlike are better too.

Posted 3 years ago #
davidtaylforth - Member

The bike goes away washed and lubed after every ride

Thanks for backing me up, full sus does require more maintenance. Fact.

Posted 3 years ago #
grumm - Member

you seem to get more respect for riding them from other bikers.

lol - from other self-obsessed purists you mean?

I had a hardtail, now I have a full suss - its much more fun. This debate has been done to death, stop getting so defensive that most people think its a bit of a shit thread topic.

Posted 3 years ago #
GNARGNAR - Member

Noooooooooooooo!!!! Please dont insult me or my thread in such a brutal fashion.

Posted 3 years ago #
mushrooms - Member

Full sus = more interestingable, more capable, more enjoyable.

HT = Faster but, you take a battering for it.

Posted 3 years ago #
bedmaker - Member

Not many Rallycars out there getting pedalled up hills by the driver

Posted 3 years ago #
underthesun - Member

This thread is all b*llocks.

Me? I ride an 80mm suspension Orbea Alma for 24 hour solos and never feel beaten up. Its uber quick for flat field racing (as most race circuits in this country are).

For 'proper' rock gardens such as the Peaks and Snowdon (not these poxy trail centres ;o) I ride a Lapierre Zesty. I used to have a Pace RC303 and thought it was the business until I rode a Lapierre Zesty at Cwm Carn and for me there is no going back for technical climbing and descending. It blows away the Pace and is more enjoyable on stuff I simply could not have conquered on the Pace. Whether thats a lack of skill on my part I don't know but when your hopping 3/4 foot step ups on a hardtail compared to a full suss the only one thats gonna win on traction is the full sus.

Posted 3 years ago #
underthesun - Member

mushrooms – 'HT = Faster but, you take a battering for it.'

Faster on what?? Fireroads.

Certainly not on rocky, techy climbs IMO of course.

Posted 3 years ago #
billybob - Member

I always thought it was the ride not the bike etc.....

Posted 3 years ago #
DrP - Member

I threw away all my bikes as I realised each one had an advert for it somewhere.....
I hate to be on any bandwagon, so now just sit there feeling proud but glum every time i try to go riding.....

DrP

Posted 3 years ago #
sq225917 - Member

The rougher your trail is the more comfort you will get from a full susser at speed.

Up until it starts getting pretty damn rough you can ride most things just as fast on a hard tail, but not with anywhere like as much comfort as on the full susser.

Full sussers make life more comfortable and that opens up riding to more people. (and manufacturers make more coin on them).

Posted 3 years ago #
molgrips - Member

Its uber quick for flat field racing (as most race circuits in this country are).

Most races are flat fields? Rubbish. It's not 1990 any more you know. Most races I do are technical woodsy singletrack (ranging from thrutchy, awkward and slow to brilliant and fast) with some fire road included. Then there's Margam which is monster climbs.

On topic (ish) - there's a rocky climb near me that I could do on my Gary Fisher Cake (great climbing 5" FS) but not on my hardtail despite it being 6lbs lighter. Climbing is not always easier on an HT, but it is if traction is not an issue.

In any case, if people think that some piece of kit will help them do something, then they might be right. It was very scary doing anything steep on my Cake (70 degree head angle) so I refused a lot of stuff. The same things are way easier on my Patriot (66 degree head angle I think). So yeah, the bike really did make a difference. Does that make me a crap rider blaming his kit for his inadequacies?

Posted 3 years ago #
grumm - Member

So yeah, the bike really did make a difference. Does that make me a crap rider blaming his kit for his inadequacies?

Yeah should go home and beat yourself with a stick to punish yourself for the shame of having enjoyed riding a full suss bike. You would get more respect from other riders for riding a hardtail.

Posted 3 years ago #
GaryLake - Member

hopping 3/4 foot step ups

I know what you meant but I read this as 3 to 4 ft step ups LOL

Posted 3 years ago #
ash - Member

Hardtail (almost) every time for me, and that includes 3 months in Les Arcs every summer + a lot of riding in the rocky maritime alps in Spring and Autumn

As for the "well why don't you just ride a rigid then?" question...

For me it's all about the difference between your legs and arms. The point is that your legs (the secondary REAR suspension of the whole bike-human system) can take much more of a beating and and have more travel than your arms (the secondary FRONT suspension of the bike-human system).

Therefore you just don't need primary (i.e. on-bike) rear suspension as much as you do primary front suspension (i.e. suspension forks)

To all those that complain of hardtail-backache... are you sitting down on descents? You shouldn't be !

And to anyone that doesn't agree that hardtails can be as fast on singletrack descents / tight trails, please explain how a full-susser would be faster in this situation:

OK, admittedly, that's not very rocky... but when it is rocky you pick a line so that you can still go fast... that's part of the fun.

All IMHO of course

Posted 3 years ago #
jimmer himself - Member

I ride both and tend to use them for different stuff. The Five gets wheeled out for the Trail Centres, big all day rides like the Brecon Beacons or Peak District and proper mountains like the Alps. The Inbred gets used for short XC rides and Endurance races.

Personally I think they complement one another because the Inbred requires more skill, fitness and strength to ride fast through technical terrain. That in turn gives me the confidence to try new stuff and push even harder on the Five.

But then I don't listen to the hype, I always buy bare frames and build them up to my own spec with tried and tested kit. Heading down to the Trail Centres in the Summer though it does appear that there are certain bikes that are being pushed hard by the marketing monkeys, because so many people are riding them.

It's the same in any sport though, those generally newer to it follow the trends more.

As to whether a HT is better than a FS bike, I'd say both have their strengths and weaknesses. But generally the rider makes the biggest difference - within reason.

Posted 3 years ago #
alpin - Member

i am surprised when reading many magazines that it is regarded as the norm to ride FS.
every time they have an article - presumably for beginners - detailing how to ride steep sections, hop obstructions, pump a bike etc etc you see some guy riding a sh!t-hot FS. why not an average looking Joe on his HT doing this tuff? i can and i only ride HT. it helps send out a message that you have to be on a FS to do these things.

i remember in MBR or the other sh!t one saying that drops of three ft or more you'll need a 6" bike....!?! why? i can drop three ft onto flat with a HT, six ft if the run off is steep enough and that's on a XC HT.

it's the same with german mags. you hardly ever see HT being ridden in the pics. picked up one mag last year and they devoted a whole mag just to HT, as if they were like SS bikes, something new and exciting.

infact, amongst the group i used to ride with there was only me and another guy out of ~25 that rode HT. and we were certainly no the slowest, up or down.

you do see a lot of riders plowing through stuff that they couldn't ride on a HT. i blame the mags.

if it weasn't shoved down peoples throats that a FS is a must people would be riding them from the off. and a 1K HT will be better specced/last longer than a 1K FS.

obviously there are situations and reason why a FS may be the best bet but as far as learning to ride a bike properly/well a HT can't be beaten.

Posted 3 years ago #
GNARGNAR - Member

I'd just like to reiterate to those I seem to have offended / bored / trolled that it wasn't my intention to simply say "Hard tails rule!! Full sussers suck" or similar. I was questioning what I see as a fairly common thought process amongst mtb'ers, that being the "I cant do that, therfore I must need a full suss. Also for the last few years it seems bike magazines have been full of adverts of full suss bikes with bold claims about the bikes ability to tame/destroy/rape entire mountains with impunity yet I can recall no such marketing for a hardtail. Ever. Which strikes me as just a little strange as imo they are just as capable in most scenarios. Perhaps I am just too young (30's) to remember them.

I suppose what I was driving at was the idea that full suspension, any full suspension, as opposed to geometry, componentry, set up or even quality of suspension is seen by some as the holy grail when it comes to moving their riding on to the next level. Which I think is wrong. I was trying to guage popular opinion on said issue and it seems that the answer is overwhelmingly that I am wrong or that it's not even worth thinking about, of no importance or no one really gives a shit. That's fair enough.

With regards to Peter Poddy, and then Grumms comments regarding the respect or kudos given by other riders to thse who ride hardtails - it was not in any way intended to be self-aggrandizing. I'm a bit bemused that it was taken as such, perhaps it reflects their own insecurities rather than my monster ego. I merely mentioned it because my post was about the attitudes of mtb'ers. I didnt think it strange or egotistical to mention it. I've seen enough comments here where someone has refered to their own ability to perform incredible climbing feats on a single speed or indeed overtake people on dh bikes at trail centres whilst they were on a rigid, or how ridiculous it was when they saw x y or z on a dh bike at a given trail centre etc etc. I'll be sure to point out what knobs those people are the next time I encounter such a post. How dare anyone even imply that any feat of skill on a bike is worthy of note.

Posted 3 years ago #
mark_b - Member

picked up one mag last year and they devoted a whole mag just to HT, as if they were like SS bikes, something new and exciting.

If you are referring to Dirt, then yes from their perspective it would be a little bit different to their usual bike of choice and therefore worth highlighting the fact they have devoted a whole issue to hardtails.

I love this inverse snobbery on STW

Posted 3 years ago #
bluebird - Member

Some interesting points on both sides of the fence. I have both, ride both on pretty the same things, with the exception of trips to the Alps, when its just easier to take one bike, and for me my FS is faster and more fun. But that's just personal preference at the end of the day.

The only thing I would add is: if HTs are faster, how come the majority professional riders, in all race disciplines, ride FS?

Posted 3 years ago #
thomthumb - Member

The only thing I would add is: if HTs are faster, how come the majority professional riders, in all race disciplines, ride FS?

eh you ever been to an xc race?

Posted 3 years ago #
bluebird - Member

Yes, Fort Bill for the last 4 years. I confess I haven't done an exact count, but it appeared to me that most professional XC riders were on short travel FS. May be I'm wrong.

Christoph Sauser races on a FS. Come on, are you telling me you're faster than him, on your HT?

Posted 3 years ago #
molgrips - Member

The very top riders will have FS and HT, and choose for the course. Rocky = FS, smooth = HT.

But yes, the original topic is about perception of FS vs HT rather than actual fact. And to a point I'd agree with Gnargnar - for a lot of inexperienced riders.

Posted 3 years ago #
theflatboy - Member

DrP - Member

I threw away all my bikes as I realised each one had an advert for it somewhere.....
I hate to be on any bandwagon, so now just sit there feeling proud but glum every time i try to go riding.....

DrP

well said

Posted 3 years ago #
theotherjonv - Member

the majority of stuff which the majority of riders on here ride can be ridden on a HT. In some cases a FS may be better, but there's very little here that isn't ridable on both. FACT

I have 4 bikes - 5" FS; 4" HT; 4" SS and a crosser. I just ride what I feel like, they're all bikes after all. There are times when one may be better but there's no reason why i can't commute on the FS if I want to, and I could take the crosser to Wales if I wanted to, recognising I might be off and running at times.

For me, riding's mainly about riding, not how fast or slow. Ride what you want to or have - end of. One thing's for sure, arguing about what is best won't make you a better rider, going out there and doing it on a Halfords special (if that's what you have) will.

And yes, FS does take more looking after than a HT than a SS. More mechanics = more to go look after and more to go wrong, and anyone who argues otherwise is deluding themself -> IMHO

Posted 3 years ago #
bluebird - Member

Molgrips, that's fair point with regard to XC riders.

I think the point I was trying to get across, probably badly, is that you cannot simply say HT is faster/better or slower/worse than in a FS in a given situation. It varies a lot depending on the rider and what they enjoy. There must be a reason why pro riders ride FS bikes. If they were slower/worse then a sponsor would not force their team to ride them because they wouldn't win, and losing is bad for business. Perhaps that is why FS are perceived, by some, to be better.

When I see someone ripping on a HT I have a lot of respect for them, not because they're on a HT, but because in general terms to ride a HT fast over rough ground takes more bike handling skill than it does to ride a FS at the same speed, over the same ground. That doesn't necessarily make a HT a better bike though, or mean that you're crap just because you ride a FS. I have respect for people who rip on a FS too.

I cannot ride my HT as fast as I can my FS (with the exception of on the road!), but I can ride it over the same terrain and it's fun on both. Just different.

I think anyone who rides a lot / knows anything about bikes can see both pluses and minuses for both HT & FS. People who perceive one is better than the other, well, they just haven't ridden enough (yet) …

Posted 3 years ago #
molgrips - Member

If they were slower/worse then a sponsor would not force their team to ride them

In most cases however I'd point out that the Mojo riders were forced to ride Orange 5s in XC races at one point. This caused a lot of protest from the riders so Orange went to town on producing some SERIOUSLY blinged out lightweight 5s, which must've been a treat to ride. They have special green Hope brakes and stuff that are lighter - all what I heard, of course - and a long way from the horse's mouth. Possibly its arse.

People who perceive one is better than the other, well, they just haven't ridden enough (yet) …

Agreed.

As an aside, I find on my FS that I can ride it so much faster over rocks etc that other things come into play on the same trail. For instance, on a rocky trail on a short travel bike I might be hanging on getting battered about, and how fast I can go depends on how much battering I can take. On the Patriot, it irons out the rocks so nicely that I can go a lot faster and then I'm concentrating on the racing line, avoid trees and flowing the trail rather than just taking the beating. So it opens up different experiences on different bits of trail.

Course, on a lighter bike (HT quite possibly) then the extra speed going up allows a similar thing.

Posted 3 years ago #
grumm - Member

With regards to Peter Poddy, and then Grumms comments regarding the respect or kudos given by other riders to thse who ride hardtails - it was not in any way intended to be self-aggrandizing. I'm a bit bemused that it was taken as such, perhaps it reflects their own insecurities rather than my monster ego.

Yes, that must be it.

Look, you prefer hardtails, you think that makes you better than people who prefer full suss. We get it - is there any need to keep going on about it?

Posted 3 years ago #
the_lecht_rocks - Member

i own both, but the HT, without doubt, would improve most FS owners' speed and capabilities.

Posted 3 years ago #