“I didn’t realise Trump has halted all the drone strikes. When was that announced?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/donald-trump-us-military-attack-yemen-civilians-women-children-dead-a7553121.html”

I think that’s the point isn’t it. Everyone’s cool with killing people in Yemen, but you inconvenience them and the world goes hysterical.

Malaysia is an Arab country? Everyday’s a schoolday!

Read it again. Arab countries sentence 1. Sentence 2 a different example, is an Asian Muslim country. Banning youth windsurfers eh ? Where is the international outcry ? Note Gulf countries will stop you entering if you are a Brit with an Isreali stamp in your passport for example if you’d taken a holiday in Eilat.

Yeah, whatabout that?

Or is it not actually whataboutery, but a suggestion that it’s good for the US to be more like Arab countries in its foreign relations?

“Try- civilians indiscriminately killed in drone strikes PLUS indiscriminate travel ban. Obviously the latter will radicalise more”

Obviously?

When you kill someone you radicalise their entire extended family and their friends.

There was a classic documentary on the Viet Cong. It struck me that not one of the people interviewed joined for the cause. In every case it was a straight reaction to American Military Attacks.

You really can’t overstate how counter productive killing people is.

Yeah, it results in arseholes being elected as POTUS 😈

Yes NW the latter will radicalise more. (As long as Trump keeps it up for 2 terms)

has it been posted that Obama restricted movement from these countries in 2011.

“Yeah, it results in arseholes being elected as POTUS”

Well yeah. A handful of Saudi ****wits have directly dictated US foreign policy for the best part of 20 years. It’s mental.

Jamba today

poah – Member

has it been posted that Obama restricted movement from these countries in 2011.

Various people have posted it, but luckily we’ve already established that it’s untrue.

“has it been posted that Obama restricted movement from these countries in 2011.”

Yeah. But a cynic might say Obama wanted it done on the quiet ‘cos he didn’t think it would play well with his voters, whereas Trump wants to shout it from the rooftop ‘cos he thinks it will play well to his voters.

Boris Johnson complaining about WW2 comparisons Being unhelpful in parliament !!!!

😯

Theresa the Appeaser and our cowtowing to trump is an embarrassment

I think that’s the point isn’t it. Everyone’s cool with killing people in Yemen

I don’t think everyone is cool with that at all. Particularly in Yemen, which is undoubtedly why Yemen was on the ban list. And I don’t think everyone was cool with it under previous administrations either.

My point was that those haven’t stopped. It’s not drone strikes OR travel bans, it’s drone strike AND travel bans. Travel bans may seem minor by comparison, but they effect a hell of a lot more people and could make potential allies into enemies.

What I find odd is that he publicly campaigned on a promise to ban Muslims. It was on his campaign website. He made a big speech about it.
But now that he has brought in this ban he is suddenly angrily telling everyone it’s not a #MuslimBan and that the darned liberal MSM are lying. What’s that about? Presumably at some point some advisor has pointed out that a ban on religious grounds would be a huge violation of the US constitution?

(Mind you, he also campaigned on killing the civilian families of terrorists, so I’m sure he’ll be happy to publicly applaud the women and children killed in that Yemen raid?)

“Various people have posted it, but luckily we’ve already established that it’s untrue.”

Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015

poah – Member
has it been posted that Obama restricted movement from these countries in 2011.

Yep several times but it’s been exposed as fakenews – spread by trump himself…

Obama issued a ban on visas for unvetted Iraqis for 6 months, it did not include green card holders as trump’s does

We gave up our bollocks after WW2 you may be surprised that they don’t grow back… don’t expect any UK politician to incur the wrath of Donald (we need his sodium chicken don’t ya know)

Please nobody state Brexit indicates bollocks it’s the opposite.

“I don’t think everyone is cool with that at all.”

Everyone’s cool was a very poor choice of phrase, my point was relatively less concerned.

There’s a million strong petition against the Ban on travel from Countries of Concern. Plus protests in the Uk. There has been barely a whisper about the Yemen bombing.

Both during the Trump administration.

so Obama didn’t restrict travel from Iraq in 2011 for 6 months then?

He did but only unvetted refugees not green card holders

Obama’s 2011 restrictions were only on refugees and SIV holders, it wasn’t a blanket ban (and at no time did the flow of these groups actually stop). It’s a ridiculous comparison

outofbreath – Member

Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015

…didn’t ban anyone and only affected people who were eligible for the VWP- ie, nationals of countries in good regard, including us. But even if affected, it just meant you had to apply for a visa like travellers from all countries outwith the VWP do anyway

But we already covered all that.

I understand what you are getting at outofbreath and I’m not sure what the answer is.

I suspect there is a bit of cognitive dissonance at play – something happening in a far of land versus something happening at your local airport?

And I think many people accept that drone strikes etc are a little more nuanced if you accept the narrative that they are targeting “bad dudes” who live and hide with civilians. Plus criticising the military is seen as very unpatriotic by a lot of Americans.

As an anecdote, I randomly watched the pivotal scene from Rules of Engagement on YouTube the other day, where the marine commander orders his troops to open fire and massacre the civilian crowd in Yemen because there are snipers hiding amongst them. Read the comments under that video for an insight into how some people view that (fictional) action. Scary!

The thing i haven’t heard at all is if banning certain people from entering the USA actually reduces the terror risk?

I mean, an organisation like ISIS has the resources to get people into the country surely, or to simply recruit people with the right passports??

“…didn’t ban anyone”

You said there were no restrictions of any kind. There were. I’ve identified them, you’ve now admitted there were, so I’m happy.

Maxtorque – they can probably find recruits with US passports and easy access to guns.

It strikes me that this ban is a public slap in the face for the intelligence services. If trump trusted them to do their job and spot the “bad dudes” he wouldn’t need to pull up the drawbridge.

Well at least it gives his adoring followers the feeling that he’s tackling the bad dudes. In 90 days he’ll probably just say “OK we’ve figured out what the heck is going on”, lift the ban and pretend it made a difference.

“Max torque – they can probably find recruits with US passports and easy access to guns.”

Or just go via another country.

I don’t think this law is intended to solve any problem beyond the problem of making Trump look like he’s ‘doing something’ to people who might vote for him. …and maybe in a democracy, that’s a good reason.

“In 90 days he’ll probably just say “OK we’ve figured out what the heck is going on”, lift the ban and pretend it made a difference.”

This, I think. They’ll tweak the visa application system in some trivial way and Trump will be able to say he sorted it all out, when Obama couldn’t.

Even so I’m not sure this whole farce will be a vote winner.

Maxtorque – they can probably find recruits with US passports and easy access to guns.

I don’t think they can, certainly not easily, otherwise you’d be seeing attacks on American soil much more frequently.
The travel ban is just a bone to his supporters. I very much doubt it’ll make American’s safer, but it might make some of them “feel” safer. Does anyone honestly think Trump and the people who elected him care about world opinion on this (the world’s left opinion mostly) or about our petitions.

thepurist
they can probably find recruits with US passports and easy access to guns.

Don’t be silly, it’s not like America is overflowing with cheap, easily accessable high power firearms now is it. oh, wait a minute……….

The list of countries has been lifted straight from Obama’s “cause for concern list”.

Sam Harris on the ban, worth 3 mins to read imho

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-few-thoughts-on-the-muslim-ban

Sean Spicer is live

he sounds just like this

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dA2GzcV7e0[/video]

DrJ – Member

Malayasia caused a fuss last year when they denied visas to the Isreali youth windsurfing team who had entered the World Championships

Malaysia is an Arab country? Everyday’s a schoolday! [/quote]

Jamba did not say that.

Jamba is correct regarding M’sia.

Yes, M’sians (proven in the passport) are banned from traveling to Israel.
Israeli are also banned from entering the country.
Discrimination (in your face type) is a way of life in M’sia but if you are tourist you don’t see that …

outofbreath – Member

You said there were no restrictions of any kind. There were. I’ve identified them, you’ve now admitted there were, so I’m happy.

Oh come on. Having to apply for a visa like everyone in the world outwith the VWP zone is what we’re talking about. That’s not an extra restriction, it’s business as normal for 6 out of 7 of the countries in the world.

The thing i haven’t heard at all is if banning certain people from entering the USA actually reduces the terror risk?

I think we did cover that one, and in any case the answer appears to be that this ban wouldn’t affect anybody who has committed terrorist acts in the USA since and including 9/11.

Clearly it is just pandering to his supporters, but we need to distinguish here between his core support who will vote for him in 2020 even (or possibly even more) if he commits multiple acts of genocide, and those who just happened to vote for him this time (because they wanted something different?) The former group are the ones supporting him on social media etc. and whilst he appears to be happily doing what that bunch (who are mostly bigoted in some way) want, they’re irrelevant. The latter group might pay attention to protests and be influenced by them.

But it’s far more than that – Trump didn’t win because lots of people voted for him, he won because lots of people didn’t vote for Hillary. All that is required is for the protests to influence some of that group who are inclined more towards the protestors

Jamba is correct regarding M’sia.

Yes, M’sians

Oh! You little tinker!

However the original accusation by the lefties was that the list of countries involved was driven by Trumps business interests

That allegation is completely and utterly shut down by the fact that the list of countries of concern was drawn up under the Obama government,

So, Northwind, Aracer – would you accept that the outrage bus that was set off in light of that allegation was wrong/false/#fakenews

A few people said that, sure, and they were wrong. But they weren’t speaking for “the lefties” you know. And now a lot of people want to use it to divert from the real story.

outofbreath – Member

I don’t think this law is intended to solve any problem beyond the problem of making Trump look like he’s ‘doing something’ to people who might vote for him. …and maybe in a democracy, that’s a good reason.

I don’t know why you keep banging on about Trump only acting the way he has been in the last week to win votes. And also apparently claiming that it’s all working out very well for him.

First of all the election campaign is over – and he got sufficient votes to win it.

And secondly, Trump isn’t simply alienating people across the world in foreign countries he is also alienating voters in the US. In fact the disapproval he is now facing from US voters is unprecedented.

Gallup: Donald Trump reaches majority disapproval rating in record time

Note :

For reference, it wasn’t until August 2011 that Barack Obama reached a majority disapproval in the daily survey, while George W. Bush didn’t reach a majority disapproval until his second term in June 2005, according to Gallup’s data.[/i]

Furthermore I doubt that Trump gives a monkeys whether he is loved or loathed, just as long as people notice him. He craves attention and power, something he’s had his entire life.

Trump is a performer, a showman, and a vain egotistic man. As I’ve said previously I don’t doubt that he is highly intelligent, what is in doubt imo is his mental health. I think it’s because he behaves irrationally and does things which are clearly damaging to the US that people assume that he must be stupid.

In that context I think an analogy with Hitler probably has some merit. No one would suggest that Hitler was “stupid” although his mental health is another matter. Hitler too was motivated not so much by rational thought but by the need to satisfy his ego and a desire for power, control, and influence.

Now I am not suggesting for a minute that Trump is “like” Hitler or as “bad” as Hitler, I don’t of course believe that – Trump is nothing like Hitler. I am simply pointing out that someone can be highly intelligent and yet also irrational. Don’t assume that because Trump is intelligent, and successful, that everything he does is rational and/or not destructive.

IMHO

People do need to drop the business interests “justification”. Trump ran for President to satisfy his ego. Gates, Allen, Dell, Buffett, Zuckerberg all have far more money than Trump but he is POTUS and he did it against all the odds.

edit: I see ernie’s post crossed mine re Trumps raison d’etre … he is going to do what he said he’d do as he sees thats the way to get relected in 2020.

jambalaya – Member

he is going to do what he said he’d do

What, make America great again?

Methinks not. But we’ll have to wait and see. It’s very early days but his first week doesn’t imo appear to have been particularly inspirational in suggesting that he will achieve that goal.