Ps. Geda, please take me with you next year 😈

Buzzlightyear – Member

"But I do wonder if UK "biking resorts", with lift-assisted riding (and I don't mean just DH riding) is the next step for us over here."

We have rubbish mountains and not many existing lifts, all of which are in the middle of nowhere. Are there any ski lifts or gondola type things in england and wales at all? I can think of 5 in scotland all but one of which now have at least some biking attached, but then there's loads of problems with building on these mountains, they're often protected sites.

Fort William's probably the only real contender, since it's got a mainline train service and a proper big mountain to play with, and it's already famous for biking, but even if they had money to burn I'm not sure how much more they'd be able to build since aonach mor's a ssi. Plus the gondola's already busy at weekends.

as others have pointed out, to think that the alps consist of morzine and les gets and a few dusty purpose-built trails and nothing else is incredibly naive.
the alps stretch across 7 countries and there's a plethora of historical events shaping different trails in different regions – old goat tracks, smuggler's trails, dilapidated world war 1 military roads, the list goes on.
if you're not afraid of a bit of internet research or buying guide books, you're looking at several lifetimes of riding that will blow your mind. the good thing is that a LOT of the trails require your personal effort, i.e. pedalling up, to get there, which ensures a small amount of bike traffic, keeping the uplift-only crowd away and the trails in good condition.

i'm not saying there isn't awesome riding to be found in the UK, it's just not on the same scale.

some photographic proof..

please make it stop, i can't handle it anymore…………….pleeeeaaaassssseeeeeeeeeeeeee………… 😉

I WAS JOKING……………..FFS………….. 🙄

Where were those taken Tamworth?

quote by Hora:
lazy/out of shape and not that committed?

comedy gold.

You need to get out of Surrey more and into the Peaks Gary 😉

We have rubbish mountains and not many existing lifts

I'll explain my thinking a bit:

1) Families and twice-a-year holiday makers dominate skiing holidays. Without the cable-cars 95% of skiers would not have bothered. Without cable-cars there would be no skiing industry (as we know it), it would be all telemarking, a niche interest just like mountain biking has been. Uplifts make the heights accessible to all.

2) Our mountains may be small and bleak, but our hills and their trails are lovely. If 5-15 minute descents aren't worthwhile, why am I constantly thinking about them?

3) Lifts are mega-bucks to build. In the Alps, they're just getting extra use of the skiing industry stuff. Who will risk a massive building project in our, often protected countryside – probably no-one. I'm thinking more about vehicle uplift, like cwmdown.

4) While I want DHers to have more uplifts, but I'm really thinking about family holidays, the equivalent of family ski holidays, but in the UK.

It's probably a stupid vision. But who in the 19th century would have imagined a million European families sliding down 3000 metre mountains on a couple of planks every winter?

I Think its a good idea Buzz. How about Snowdon? Already got the train going up and one of the longest downhills around. They just need to get rid of the walkers and put a few more trails in 🙂

If you were going to spend a one week summer holiday at a luxury mountain bike resort, with uplifts, in Mid Wales, how many km of runs would:

1) you need
2) you wife and kids need

?

You'll never get a mtb resort off the ground in the Uk – not enough space and too many land use considerations.

Having said that – you could do a DH centre with half a dozen trails and a road uplift fairly easily. I know of one sterile trail-less forestry plantation that's on a wicked site near Dinas Mawddwy in North Wales.

Mynydd Talyglannau/ Mynydd Llyn Coch Hwyad?

Maybe it's the weather or the talent. UK = bad weather and manly women.

our hills are big enough;

300m vertical drop (plenty of those) would make for 6km descents (1:20 which is plenty) = 12minutes at 30kph.

300m is about the same as the pre la joux bike park in chatel, and the whistler A-line (and plenty of others).

a brand new high-speed chairlift costs about £2million. s'nothing really…

we could definitely do something similar in this country.

(the fort william Dh track only drops about 500m, and that's a whopper)

I've never biked in the Alps. Would love to but I only get so much time off. When you've taken off 3 weeks skiing, a week somewhere hot, 2 weeks visiting in laws and friends around Britain, 3 weekend festivals, Christmas and that it doesn't leave much time for mtb hols. I just make do with the 840m peak I open my curtains to every morning and all of its smaller siblings. Sometimes I do its bigger siblings too but I have to drive 30-60 mins for them. Uplift? Aye it would be nice but there's a lot to be said for earning a descent.

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but the Alps? Lazy? Good grief.

The Alps, well, Verbier, the only bit I've ever ridden, are on a different scale to any area of the UK. There's just more of everything. Except maybe rain. And midges. Even with the lifts, which might take you up part of the way, there's nothing lazy about it.

The altitude does make a difference – I found myself getting knackered far quicker, particularly when climbing. Having said that, the air felt very clean and good to breathe.

And the descents just go on and on and on and on. And on. Never found anything like it in the UK that left my limbs, hands and brakes in the same jellied/smoking hot nick as an Alpine descent.

Admittedly, I'm a total mincer and was borderline petrified a good deal of the way down. The only way I didn't "get" the Alps was that it put me right on the edge of my comfort zone in a way that no trails I'd ridden in the UK ever did, and I wasn't quite sure whether I was actually enjoying it or not, some of the time anyway.

That said, I had a great week there – it's about more than just the riding. Big jaggy, snow-capped mountaintops everywhere you look, as far as the eye can see and beyond. Glaciers. The sound of cowbells. Exotic wildlife. Rolling into a village in the middle of a cheese festival on a Sunday afternoon. They're foreign, the Alps. You might not think they're better than the UK, but they're certainly different – worth doing for one week out of 52.

UK = bad weather and manly women

Majority of women in Manchester smoke and are built sturdily it seems.

>a brand new high-speed chairlift costs about £2million. s'nothing really…<

Seems that it is

http://www.peeblesshirenews.com/news/roundup/articles/2010/02/18/397274-innerleithen-chairlift-delayed-by-lack-of-private-cash/

As many before have pointed out there is so much more to be explored than the Chatel and Les Gets bike parks….. There's nothing better than a day out exploring the back country trails in Switzerland, where with just a little bit of climbing epic decents can be accessed.

The only problem we find is that most people who come out here on holiday don't want to do any climbing which means they end up on the same trails as everyone else, which unfortunately do get a bit trashed!

I managed a day out on Sunday where i probably did around 7000m of decent without seeing another cyclist it just doesn't get better than that for me.

So… If someone was going to build a major chairlift-uplift bike resort in the UK, where would it go? You need the following:

A decent sized mountain which:
nobody else wants
Isn't an SSI or similiar
Has a variety of surface features- ie rock, mature forest
Ideally isn't swampy or peaty
Has let's say 300 metres of height gain in a reasonably short area, as an absolute minimum
It needs to be:
Not too far from anywhere, so people can get there
Close to mainline rail and motorway ideally, or even airport
But also somewhere that needs "regeneration" so you can get funds from government
And not too easy to escape from to keep money/people in the area
It hopefully would be:
Not too far from other succesful bike venues, to broaden its appeal
In one of the areas with less rain
And it needs to:
Actually make money, so have a hotel/holiday complex we can take over

So assuming I was about to buy a mountain, what mountain should I buy?

Ben Lomond

Oh – and…http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/ski-resorts-year-round-plans-1.1039668

you wouldn't need a mountain, plenty of 300m hills about.

skilifts go up mountains because that's where the snow is.

most scottish trail centres are high enough, you could even do it at (dare i say it?) Glentress.

itsa 400m climb to the top of Mynch Moor, that's bigger than the Whistler A-line.

"druidh – Member

Oh – and…http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/ski-resorts-year-round-plans-1.1039668&quot;

Cairngorm would be brilliant but they seem to be pretty much knackered with environmental concerns, it's only now that they've started letting people away from the top station of the funicular frinstance. The Lecht and Glenshee are just in the wrong place, Glencoe too as well. Nevis has the rail line and the existing trails so it'd be a good 'un I reckon.

ahwiles, good point, I suppose I'm saying "mountain" too carelessly, innerleithen feels like a mountain as you ride up it

Northwind – Member

Cairngorm would be brilliant but they seem to be pretty much knackered with environmental concerns

The SSSI is well away from Coire Cas, which is already criss-crossed by access roads, uplift and fences. A pretty good track could be laid down here, served by the funicular.

The recent introduction of guided walks from the funicular station has only come about due to pressure from local business. A wee bit more pressure could open up a lot more.

Imagine a run from the funicular station down to the Heron Field……a drop of 750m…….

Mid Wales. Before you say it's to far, consider that we spend a whole day travelling to our continental bike resorts. Dyfi forest maybe as itS already hugely developed for timber production and has access roads.

In terms of Scotland and per my link above there is already a scheme on the table for Innerleithen – apparently all it would take is a consortium of private enterprise/ bike biz / punters to put their money where their mouth is. Oh wait a minute…. the punters are all waiting for the government to step in and do it for them. It aint gonna happen ;-(

All the Scottish ski areas were built by punters with drive and vision.

Changed days…I think the mtb community has been pretty pampered – seems to be a mindset that all we have to do is turn up with some money to spend on Lattes and fancy sandwiches and the world will fall at our feet. I doubt there is that drive and vision or perhaps even the need in the mtb community to rekindle the people power that went into building/ pioneering the lift structures at The Coe and Glenshee in the Fifties.

What all you "lets have a resort in Jockland" folk forget is that most of us can be in the Alps quicker and cheaper than we can be in Scotland (and that's coming from someone in the Midlands not darn sarf!).

If we are going to have a resort in the UK it needs to be more accessible to more people. Somewhere near Birmingham would be ideal except for the lack of hills!!! So we'd probably have to go for Wales?

You're right there Pierre. I can be in Geneva in the same time it takes to drive to North Wales but only because i live next to (literally) Bristol airport!

EDIT: Another issue not mentioned is that of trail maintenance. If the trails at Les Get etc are full of braking bumps and in generally poor shape after just a few weeks use every year then how do think Glentress/Innerleithens trails are going to be after year round hammering once a chairlift was installed???? You'd have to also fund a full-time trail maintenance crew as per Whistler. The reason the best trails in the Alps are just that is because they're protected from use by snow cover for about half the year!

MP

You are confusing a resort with an uplift facility – and sorry, you aint selling Birmingham to me as an outdoor destination 😉

Agree that Scotland cannot possibly compete with the Alps on their terms. Despite your other comments I see an endless stream of posts on here about GT, Aviemore and FW from those in the South so in my view there are possibilities with Aviemore for example (if the environmental issues and w8nk management structure at CML can be overcome.)

People need to be attracted up here with a different proposition to the gravity only "product" they have in the Alps.

But the Alps isn't 'Gravity only'! Thats what most of us are saying.

Nick, the french/swiss/PDS Dh tracks are full of braking bumps because they're designed by idiots.

the trails are too steep, so people ride on the brakes, so you get braking bumps and erosion.

the trails are not too steep to ride, but they're too steep to be sustainable.

we're all riding gods on here, so we know not to brake on braking bumps, even when they're relentless top-to-bottom. we know how to ride out of a berm at 500kph after free-falling down an entire alp.

we know this, but most people don't. you have to deal with the reality that most people get a litte cautious on steep trails when there is no sign of a less-steep bit up ahead, and cautious cyclists like to use their brakes, usually just before a corner, or on long steep straight bits to control their speed.

i'm a riding god, so i never touch my brakes, not once, oh no, never, not me, i'm Chris bloody Akrigg.

>But the Alps isn't 'Gravity only'! Thats what most of us are saying. <

Yes, I do appreciate that and I'm not disagreeing with you. Portes de Soleil has the largest interlinked lift infrastucture in the world and the majority of folk on here appear to use these lifts for the most part to get up. In tourism terms Scotland is competing in the same market but has to do so with a different offering.

you don't need to have a steep trail to have it fall apart with brake bumps. i first rode the monkey trail in cannock when it was brand new and super smooth, and since its opening the faster bits have been eroding quite a LOT, with nasty brake bumps appearing, the sides of the trail crumbling off etc.
brake bumps come from overuse, which is why trails that require a big effort on the rider's behalf to get to will have far fewer of them.

braking bumps are caused by people braking, a good trail builder should be able to predict where people will want to slow down / control their speed, and use the terrain / features to help them.

ie, don't put tight bends at the end of a long downhill straight, long sweeping corners running back up the hill will slow people down.

(don't have long downhill straights in the first place)

if you have a corner that cuts back across the fall-line, follow it with a section of level contouring trail, maybe even a slight incline if necessary.

braking bumps are easy, just look at the trail and ask yourself 'why are people braking here?' – and then look to the terrain for fun ways to help people slow down.

I don't typically brake in braking bumps unless I've really messed up a corner** but then I've got a DH bike with approximately ten feet of travel and I've ridden a lot in the PdS, so I know what's coming round the corners.

I disagree that the trails are not sustainable. After all, they've been there for some time, it's just that they're rutted as anything, but that just makes them a bit lot more challenging to ride.

Effectively, this leads to an arms race – I used to ride a 5 Spot in the PdS, but the trails I ride are in many cases so rough (not just the pure DH tracks, think the Morzine Switchbacks stuff as well) that I kept breaking bits, so I got a DH bike. Which means I can go faster downhill and ride bits I couldn't.

Assuming I'm not the only person buying a cheap eBay DH special (£6-700 will see you on something a couple of years old), this can only lead to the trails getting more and more rutted as people ride faster and brake harder.

**OK, this happens quite a lot

nickegg – Member

"EDIT: Another issue not mentioned is that of trail maintenance. If the trails at Les Get etc are full of braking bumps and in generally poor shape after just a few weeks use every year then how do think Glentress/Innerleithens trails are going to be after year round hammering once a chairlift was installed???? You'd have to also fund a full-time trail maintenance crew as per Whistler. "

Yup. Constant maintenance but also more importantly more trails to spread the use, if you double footfall… Wheelfall? You want to double the trails to balance. But then the trails aren't neccesarily the expensive bit, according to the news items Nevis Red cost £60000 to build, all of the original red black and blue at laggan was £140000, which compared with a chairlift isn't nothing but it's a small part of a big budget. And o'course more trails makes for a more desirable location.

ahwhiles – that's all very well for a trail centre, but don't build long straights or tight corners? and replace with uphills? on a DH track? get a grip!!
The Plenney main line (pob the busiest DH track in PDS) is a mess of braking bumps from top to bottom for one reason – shite riders with massive disk brakes they're scared to let go of. those riders don't even attempt any of the unmarked DH tracks in the area so these tracks stay pretty much braking bump free.

We don't need another tedious discussion about braking bumps. If it's "resort" concept, then monthly trail maintenance can be funded by the uplift company, just as it is daily for skiing.

I'm thinking 300 beds in the bowl of Dyfi Forest:
a hotel with shop, bar and restaurant and cafe plus room for expansion
a bunkhouse
a campsite
a small bike shop
4×15 seater Vans+trailer accessing 4 low pickup points to 4 high drop off points via forest roads (20mins up) stopping at each pickup, drop off point every 30 mins all day
50 km of handbuilt descending trail from XC blue->black->DH
Additional enhanced natural and climbing trails beyond that
Twice daily van and trailer to CYB and NantYArian.