Berm Bandit – “it would certainly be a first in my experience.”

not looked very hard then! there’s a case in one of my earlier posts in this thread, and if you google “death by dangerous driving” and “cyclist” you’ll find a few more.

Bermbandit – death by careless / dangerous driving is used a fair bit. Some recently got 5 years in Scotland that I know of. some links at teh bottom

epo-aholic – Member

interesting post……..

I just thought this could happen to anyone, scary in that regard.

A thought provoking post, well done that man.

Ta- that was my point in part. Trying to illustrate the shades of grey that exist.

Stoatsbrother – Member

……………..

But is there really anything so special about driving a vehicle that exempts one from the consequences of fatal errors?

Again – indeed.

Where is justice here? Its hard to see. Whatever teh outcome and the sentence someone will feel unfairly treated.

http://road.cc/content/news/13475-motorist-convicted-killing-army-officer-cyclist-through-dangerous-driving

http://road.cc/content/news/27511-breaking-seven-years-jail-and-lifetime-ban-lorry-driver-who-killed-catriona-patel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10404620

Sit back with a cup of tea and have a look at this

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2009/11/cycling-against-car-culture.html

It’s a very good blog. The more recent ones are about his on going battle with hounslow police and the CPS for failing to do anything about someone who threatened to kill him.

It’s made national news in several papers now.

Good stuff jon. A bit partisan but its good to see someone with a little authority taking that line

I bleieve the balance is slowly shifting towards the cyclist and to greater punishment of bad driving but its awfully slow. After all these people who have had jail sentence s probably wouldn’t have done ten years ago

Bermbandit – death by careless / dangerous driving is used a fair bit.

I think you are missing my point TJ. You are saying hat this woman has been at best treated harshly. What I am saying is that its extremely unlikely in fact the liklihood is that you wouldn’t get charged at all, let alone treated harshly or unfairly if you kill a cyclist with a motor vehicle. There is no point whatsoever you trotting out examples of people getting charged anymore than there is of me trotting out those who don’t, we all know that as a cyclist the liklihood is you will get precious little protection in law if you are assualted with a motor vehicle.

Bermbandit – where do I say that? Its not my point at all.

I just had email from a mate :-(.. His dad was killed in a hit and run in Weston Super Mare a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.wellspeople.co.uk/local-people/Arrests-80-year-old-dies-hit-run-road-accident/story-10291407-detail/story.html

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IMO. They should be nailed to the floor and shot. TWICE then killed again.

Driver is traumatised. Unable to return to work, loses job. Unable to pay for house, loses house. Is treated for PTSD from a consultant psychiatrist, on the verge of being sectioned. For two years has the risk of going to jail hanging over her. This is a middle-aged woman with no previous record.

What is the fair punishment / sentence for her?

She made a mistake that cost a cyclist a life. She was not drunk or speeding or anything else against the law

It has had serious effects on her as well that will last the rest of her life

Usually when these sorts of case are discussed on there there is a lot of kneejerk ” hangings too good for them” ” how to get away with murder – use a car to kill a cyclist”

I thought this example was a useful way of illustrating that its not always so clear cut what justice is.

This woman made a mistake and killed a cyclist. what is the appropriate sentence?

Sorry TJ obviously I misinterpreted the above to mean that this situation was felt to be harsh. By contrast my point is that in a high proportion of cases this is not the case, and in fact court at th is level is a rare outcome of a death crash with a cyclist, unless it is so glaringly obvious that there was negligence on the part of the driver that it is impossible to ignore. In the case you cite it is obviously difficult to comment as there are no facts to hand other than those you choose to share with us, but I would venture to say that I doubt very much that she is either sufficiently well represented or more likely that there are in fact as many straightforward extentuating circumstances as you say. Also in considering the situation it might be a tad more balanced to have a similar impact statement from the family and friends of the dead cyclist just to even up the emotional swingometer.

I’m all for restorative justice but I don’t see what point victim impact statements achieve bar letting those close to victims have their day in court.

Whether a victim is missed/loved etc has no bearing on the severity of the crime and sentencing.

Bermbandit. My point was that it is not as clear cut as many on here would say – the reaction on here is often “its murder – lock them up and throw away the key”

Hence I ask in the bit you quote ” what is a fair sentance?”

Elsewhere I say that whatever the outcome one side will feel justice is not done. What is justice here?

I have given all the information I have

I’m all for restorative justice but I don’t see what point victim impact statements achieve bar letting those close to victims have their day in court.

Well its a bit like this thread with TJ’s initial post, i.e. you are only hearing one side of the story, and by its very nature that is always going to be looking to mitigate the outcome for the defendant. So hearing an impact statement from the victim just evens the balance up a bit, by pointing out that there are two sides to every story.

Besides that surely the notion of justice requires the vicitim to have some part in the process however small otherwise how is it justice? I know how I felt when a guy who assaulted me decided to plead guilty. As I wasn’t required as a witness, I was effectively excluded from the case totally, in fact the first I knew about it was when the outcome was reported in the local paper. All I wanted from the process was some sort of closure, what I actually got was an overwhelming feeling that I’d been mugged a second time.

Besides that surely the notion of justice requires the vicitim to have some part in the process however small otherwise how is it justice?

I would think that almost certainly adds to injustice. Justice should be impartial and cold in its reasoning.

Justice should be impartial and cold in its reasoning.

A complete aside to the main point. However, whenever did I suggest anything else? All I was suggesting was that the emotional pleas of the defendant would be best counterbalanced by an impact statement, otherwise the process is self evidently unbalanced. I’m definately not suggestign that the victim judge the case or decide the penalty. However, how can it be justice if the victim has no opportunity to have any input at all? Rather like your initial post which is givng a great deal of emotional weight to the killers position but is light on facts and is unbalanced in respect of the impact on the victim and their family.