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Court summons....

38 posts & 24 voices | Started 9 months ago by gravitysucks | Latest reply from iain1775

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gravitysucks - Member

Hey folks,
looking for a bit of advice. Just received a court summons for a speeding offence back in Late Feb 2011.
I received a letter from West Yorkshire Police which I confirmed I was the driver at the time of the offence (55mpn in a reduced 50mph zone on a motorway). I returned the form and was expecting a speed awareness application to be sent out (1st offense). It never arrived and the matter slipped my mind after a month.

Fast forward 5 months and i've just received a summons for Bradford Magistrates court. I've contacted the courts to explain its out of the blue and i've received nothing since admitting I was the driver.
They tell me to contact West Yorkshire Police. When I speak to them they tell me they sent a speed awareness application followed by a NIP 5 weeks later, both of which I've never received. They are now telling me they can't do anything as it's been passed on to the courts. All I can do is plead guilty at court or by post.

Now i'm not trying to wriggle out of anything but feel pi$$ed that its gone straight to court without me getting the same options as every other driver on the road in the same situation. I only have the police's word that they sent it out and I don't know if these are computer generated or not.

If I plead guilty I have no idea about the size of the fine or points but there will be an £85 charge added on for costs.
Given the same options as everyone else I would have taken the speed awareness course and saved me getting points.

Any advice?? The people at the magistrates have been really helpful, the woman at the police not so.

I'm happy to plead guilty and maybe send a letter to explain but don't want to end up with points and a hefty court expense bill just because some person / computer guffed up and didn't sent out the forms.

And before you all say, yes I did the crime and am willing to except the punishment. I'm not debating that, I just want the same punishment as everyone else would get not some more trumped up costs and points.

Posted 9 months ago #
Jerome - Member

You need one of those celebrity lawyers..
My six points have recently expired ..

Posted 9 months ago #
thegreatape - Member

The court can't offer speed awareness courses, only the police.

Therefore I suspect all you can do is appeal to the ticket office/process unit's better nature (oxymoron?), (again), and explain that you never received those letters.

That said, I'm not sure that they can stop the court process once it's been started. (The police I mean).

Posted 9 months ago #
RS4KEV - Member

remove flame suit and go to linky

Posted 9 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

Greatape - already appealed to the police, they've stated they can;t do anything now its gone to court.

Posted 9 months ago #
thegreatape - Member

I suspect that's probably correct.

Posted 9 months ago #
highclimber - Member

although you can't prove you never got one there could probably be a way out of it if they can't prove the notice was sent e.g. tracking number etc.

Posted 9 months ago #
rickmeister - Member

Maybe a legal professional can help, or pepipoo on the web...

Posted 9 months ago #
neilsonwheels - Member

Bend over and take it like a man because your about to be bug***ed.

Posted 9 months ago #
monksie - Member

I send court summons out once a week as part of my job. No need for any evidence of the letter(s) being sent and received other than a statement of batch posting which is an electronic list of all the names and addresses of the letters going via batch post.
The magistrates will check the list to see if you're on it if you ask them to check as part of your defence although technically speaking, it's not in defence of the offence, more that you would have preferred speed awareness.
The best thing you can do at this point is plead guilty by post.

Posted 9 months ago #
arthurcrabstick - Member

Go to court.....Plead poverty and any points/pontential ban will cause problems with your job. Worked for me in 2004. 6 points and £240 fine. Though was doing cough104cough

Posted 9 months ago #
monksie - Member

He was 5mph over in a 50mph, not playing Death Race 2000 at 104mph. Honestly, guilty by post or you'll get whammied for costs. The points will be the same regardless of whether you attend or not.

Posted 9 months ago #
arthurcrabstick - Member

Oh...note to self- read OP in full.

Posted 9 months ago #
matthew_h - Member

I had an almost exactly the same thing happen with me a few years ago. First I heard of the whole thing was the summons. I donned my best suit, attended the court and explained the situation and was given the three points, ordered to pay costs but the fine was smaller in order to make the total cost to me (£30 costs and £50 fine iirc) the same as the standard SP30 would have been.

Posted 9 months ago #
yunki - Member

don't go to court.. ignore any furthur letters.. go on the lamb.. become an outlaw.. you'll get justice and women will throw themselves naked at your feet..

that'll teach those babylon oppressors.. just tell 'em yunki sent you

Posted 9 months ago #
TuckerUK - Member

The Police and Courts have a magical system whereby they use Royal Mail to send out legal documents, and don't have to prove you received them for you to be bound by their contents. This is despite Royal Mail admitting to losing millions of letters every year. You couldn't make it up.

Posted 9 months ago #
neilsonwheels - Member

I donned my best suit

Big mistake. Wearing a suit makes you look guilty straight away.

Posted 9 months ago #
matthew_h - Member

But I was guilty and I wasn't denying it. I'd made an effort though and that was appreciated.

Posted 9 months ago #
highclimber - Member

The Police and Courts have a magical system whereby they use Royal Mail to send out legal documents, and don't have to prove you received them for you to be bound by their contents. This is despite Royal Mail admitting to losing millions of letters every year. You couldn't make it up

you could but I doubt anyone would believe it!

Posted 9 months ago #
Munqe-chick - Member

DON'T plead by post, go to court directly as then you can give any mitgation you want it, or your solicitor can. Don't take advice on here. I'm a police officer and I am not willing to give advice either as I'm not 100% sure it would be correct. I can say though you are better off attending as then you can give mitigation rather than not bothering ... and do wear a suit!!!

Posted 9 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

I would like to attend but it's based at the court in Bradford and I'm in Stockport so I can't afford the cost of travel and a day off work even if I could get it off.

It's annoying the hell out of me that I could be nicely shafted with a sizeable fine and points when I wanted to do the speed awareness and avoid points in the first place. Especially when these legal documents aren't sent out with any proof of delivery.

Posted 9 months ago #
druidh - Member

AFAIK the speed awareness course isn't regularly offered as an option and you might have ended up with the points and fine anyway.

Posted 9 months ago #
Zedsdead - Member

FIGHT THE POWER!

Posted 9 months ago #
Munqe-chick - Member

But OP has already been told that he had been offered it but OP says he didn't recieve it so that's his beef, which is a completely acceptable one IMO!

Posted 9 months ago #
gravitysucks - Member

Yep spot on mc. I was expecting to pay 75 and have no points. Now because of a mistake that they're not willing to fix or take into account I'm looking at a likely 3 points, £85 in costs and around a £160 - £340 fine (up to £2500 max)

Posted 9 months ago #
JacksonPollock - Member

Agree with MC. Go to court (if at all possible). Tell them what you have told us. Be honest and concilatory. They will take it all into account... and then make their decision.

Point being that if the court does not know the circumstances, how can they take them into account?

Posted 9 months ago #
project - Member

Report the letters as lost or stolen, then if there is a problem with other missing mail on the round unemploymnet goes up by one.

Posted 9 months ago #
geoffj - Member

Given a clean license and the choice of 3 points + £60 or £80 + 4 hours on a speed awareness course, I'd take the points. The sa course I did in June was truly awful - and yes, I was guilty as charged so no real complaints!

Posted 9 months ago #
Munqe-chick - Member

But the point is GeoffJ (A) he didnt' get letters to be offered that's the beef and (b) if he goest o court he won't get 3 points and £60 it is potentially going to be significantly higher. I would seek legal advice rather than asking on here. The answer is NONE of us know the answer and unfortunately can't help you.

Posted 9 months ago #
geoffj - Member

MC - you are right, I was just trying to lighten the mood a little.
I hope the op gets sorted.

Posted 9 months ago #
crankboy - Member

The speed awareness course is discretionary so you cannot force that issue.

The magistrates guidance is if you plead guilty and have a good reason for not accepting the fixed penalty then to deal with you as if it was a fixed penalty ie 3 points and fine or fine and costs to the value of the fixed penalty.

I have known the cps to go back to the police and get a speed awareness course sorted out after summons but that is unusual.

options
a) plead guilty by post with full explanation likely outcome 3 points and fine and costs (costs are at the courts discretion)
b) go to court in a suit if you regularly wear one and it is nor garish ask to speak to the prosecutor before you go in explain the circs see if they can try to get you referred back for the course if not plead guilty and fully explain yourself likely out come adjourn to another day and possible speed course or penalty as at option a.
c) pay serious money to a loophole lawyer to explore all the technicalities outcome as at a or b but you will have paid serious money out . very slight chance of no penalty and slighter chance that you will recover your costs.

Posted 9 months ago #
ziptie - Member

Not exactly the same as OP but anyway, here's what happened to me back in 2000:

In February I was caught by a camera doing a little more than the 40 limit.

The first I knew of this was later in June when I received a summons to court for failing to identify myself. I hadn't received anything in the post before the summons.

Freaking out, I called a local law firm and explained the situation. They gave me some free(!) advice over the phone which sounded like common sense.

Their view was that if you're guilty of something, plead guilty, and if not guilty then plead not guilty. In this case I was clearly not guilty of failing to identify myself as I had not received the original request from the police.

I was guilty of the speeding offence but that's not what the summons was for. The summons was for failing to say it was me in the car.

Following the lawyer's advice, I called the Police to get confirmation that they had sent the original fixed penalty notice as regular post rather than recorded/registered.

I returned the summons plea form to the Clerk to the Justices, marked not guilty and accompanied by a letter explaining that I had not received the penalty notice (and reminder) from the police. I also said I would be happy to accept the penalty for the original traffic offence.

My summons form stated that if you plead not guilty then a new hearing date is made, so I sat back and waited for notification.

I got a letter back from the court confirming receipt of my letter and that they had sent a copy to the police.

Then just after the original hearing date I received a brief one page computer print-out, "court order: withdrawn".

Posted 9 months ago #
boblo - Member

Boo hoo.

Speed awareness is a soft option that is discretionary not a right. If you haven't been offered it (by whatever combination of circumstances) so what. Sorry but the default is points/fine and the speed course is a lucky soft option which is not open to you.

If you wish to mitigate the situation, write a mitigation statement go to court suited and booted and explain yourself. Do not belly ache about not being offered the soft option or you'll lose whatever vestige of good will the magistrates may have towards you.

I've had the misfortune of having had to do this a few times so know the ropes

Posted 9 months ago #
geoffj - Member

Boblo that's a bit harsh. The op should have been gIven a fixed penalty or possibly the option of a speed awareness course. Either way, he has ended up wrongly with a court summons.

I've had the misfortune of having had to do this a few times so know the ropes

Misfortune or poor driving?

Posted 9 months ago #
boblo - Member

@geoffj. Yeah I know it was a bit harsh but people now see speed awareness as a right not a lucky privilage. Take your point about the fixed pen but to be complaining about not getting the chance of being let off... grrrr.

And yes, bad driving all of my own making and more than once. I'm a slow learner but am (mostly) cured now. Ysee, I took my medicine and dint complain about ontinternet...

Posted 9 months ago #