Cabon frame meets Kielder grit. Anything I can do about this?

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Cabon frame meets Kielder grit. Anything I can do about this?

48 posts & 35 voices | Started 8 months ago by andrewh | Latest reply from Dimmadan

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andrewh - Member

Hello all.

I have a carbon HT race frame with two bottle cage mounts. The one on the seattube holds the bottle a little too close to the downtube, if that makes sense. I was unaware of this until cleaning the bike up after Keilder when I discovered that several hours of the bottle rubbing the grit into the carbon had worn a hole in it, thus:

It's only a little hole and there was obvioulsy no impact damage so I'm sure surrounding areas wll be fine. I doubt very much it would be a warrenty job as I think that counts as wear and tear.
So, what can I do about it? Anyone mended anything similar? My main concern is to stop it getting any worse and becoming a weak point resluting in frame snappage, I'm not really fussed about cosmetics. Any advice much appreciated.

Cheers,
Andy H

Posted 8 months ago #
stuartlangwilson - Member

I'm no structural engineer but that looks bad.

Maybe bump this in the morning for more knowlegable replies!

Posted 8 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

Argue design flaw.

Or just ride it until cracks appear.

Posted 8 months ago #
aracer - Member

~~That's just a crack in the lacquer - will polish out~~

Oops! It is at least a nice round hole without stress risers - there's a good chance the frame will be OK as it is provided it's reasonably overbuilt - there is after all a similar sized hole in the same place on the tube a bit further up! Get it checked out by a pro though - I'm sure somebody on here can suggest the appropriate person.

Argue design flaw.

I'm liking that one - except they'll argue it's only a problem with some bottle cages and it's up to the user to check for such issues. Surely gluing a spoon across the hole will fix it though?

Posted 8 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

I'll spoon you

Posted 8 months ago #
dirk_pumpa - Member

thats gonna snap

Posted 8 months ago #
v8ninety - Member

Carbon fibre repair

I'd have a word with these guys.

Posted 8 months ago #
nonk - Member

i reckon that should be ok with the right repair.
i was in BETD once having a gander round the factory and i was looking at one of the team yetis that they had at the time, it had been crashed in a way that forced the cage of the rear mech through the bottom of the chain stay , they had done a quality job of filling and smoothing of the hole with some kind of epoxy when i asked if it had held up ok they said it had been like that for a full season of racing so yeah.
the hole was way bigger than yours.

Posted 8 months ago #
seth-enslow666 - Member

Bit of Araldite and it will be reyt son!

Posted 8 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

I think aracer has it-there's a similar hole 1-2" up the down tube.

I'd maybe put some tape over it at most.

Posted 8 months ago #
druidh - Member

Saw this happen to a Scott and I think they warrantied it.

Posted 8 months ago #
wwaswas - Member

I'm liking that they lined the tubes with a bit of old rafia matting

Posted 8 months ago #
jedi - Member

its the botttle cage thats faulty. the boses are the same on every bike pretty much

Posted 8 months ago #
stooo - Member

Pretty hard to argue that any bit of kit is at fault there.... unfortunately, it's up to us to make sure bits of our bike don't rub on other bits to prevent wear. I still wish designers could find a way to route cables and stuff so they don't wear holes in the frame.

Kielder was pretty exceptional conditions though - my pal wore a nice groove in his Cannondale Flash chainstay with his carbon crank after riding 20 mile with a duff BB... till the BB just gave up all together and fell to pieces.

All that said - speak to some good carbon repair guys and they can patch that so it won't be any bother. I've seen some pretty impressive repair jobs on carbon that have been sound.

Speak to Steve in i-cycles in Innerleithen... he's had a few carbon frames repaired and they've been good jobs too.

Posted 8 months ago #
wool - Member

It a common problem I noticed it about to happen when putting an extra bottle cage on for kielder and it made me use a different cage.
keep you eyes open out there had it happen on a Kona and a Fisher.

Posted 8 months ago #
GlitterGary - Member

I'd be more worried about your brake leaver that's fallen off.

Posted 8 months ago #
tomaso - Member

A bit of two part epoxy should hold that together. Probably make it stronger than it was originally

Posted 8 months ago #
jonba - Member

Speak nicely to the manufacturer. Dont be agressive and demand things just be polite, ask if they can help as you love the bike and the brand but can't afford to replace the bike. I've had some really encouraging responses taking this approach. Sometimes fixed, sometimes replaced for free or at cost price.

After that ask them about repairs or contact a professional.

If you fancy doing it yourself then for a hole that size Araldite 2K may be ok. Alternatively do a bit of reseach and see if you can get a proper repair kit. I know they exist for kayaks so maybe start there.

Posted 8 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

I was thinking Araldite too. But I don't really have a clue, just know its very very strong stuff

Posted 8 months ago #
Surrounded By Zulus - Member

You need to ask the question.

Posted 8 months ago #
globalti - Member

If you get no joy from the manufacturer I would be tempted to fill the hole with a bit of Araldite then actually glue a circular or oval patch over the top of that - a piece of carbon mat in epoxy would be ideal.

Posted 8 months ago #
uplink - Member

http://www.carbonmods.co.uk/Products/fishing-rod-pole-repair-kit.aspx

If you can't get a reasonably priced repair from a specialist, it may be worth a go

Posted 8 months ago #
aracer - Member

If you fancy doing it yourself then for a hole that size Araldite 2K may be ok. Alternatively do a bit of reseach and see if you can get a proper repair kit. I know they exist for kayaks so maybe start there

Filling the hole with araldite will help stop a crack from starting, but it won't do much more than that. The thing is, as I mentioned above, you may not need to do any more than that. If you've not done such repairs before I'd suggest handing it over to the pros rather than attempting anything more significant in the way of a patch yourself (a "repair kit" for kayaks is unlikely to use carbon fibre).

Posted 8 months ago #
Merchant-Banker - Member

get yourself one of these, carbon kit and you'll be fine.

Posted 8 months ago #
Macavity - Member

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRDEu1rrcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s25hVcjjH5Q&feature=related

Posted 8 months ago #
andyl - Member

3 inches up the tube you have 2 more holes in the tube anyway, it was a thin top tube with no holes etc i would be more worried. It does depend if the tube was locally reinforced around the intentional bolt holes of if the tube is globally built for the presence of holes.

Normally one would do the former but as the tube is not that big in the grand scale of things and it's quite hard to do local padding on the inside and it needs to be beefy at each end for the joints you may well be lucky. You could always try and contact the manufacturer and ask what they think.

You are lucky that the hole is chamfered - do not mess with it! The gradualy dropping off of the plies is much better than a sudden holes.

It is tempting to say apply a carbon/kevlar/glass wrap around with some epoxy and use perforated PVC (insulation tape) adhesive side outwards wrapped around tightly to consolidate and squeeze out excess resin but that could cause problems with local stiffening and that's if you even get a decent bond. A simple epoxy plug may be the best answer - just give it a clean and then gradually build up some epoxy - make sure it doesnt go into the hole. Maybe contact one of the people who offer carbon repairs and see what they say as they will have more experience with bike frame repairs.

Posted 8 months ago #
KINGTUT - Member

I would say definitely repairable, but I would rather give it to someone with experience to fix it rather than DIY.

Lucky it's not an alu frame, you'd be binning it.

Posted 8 months ago #
andyl - Member

Ps put some helitape in those kinds of places.

and yes you would be more at risk with a metal frame as it would probably tear right round the thin wall tube.

Posted 8 months ago #
allthepies - Member

I reckon some carbon friendly glue will do the trick there.

Posted 8 months ago #
jonba - Member

(a "repair kit" for kayaks is unlikely to use carbon fibre).

It will if it's for a carbon fibre boat. Plenty of competition boats (Polo, slalom etc.) are carbon. Paddles are often carbon too. They get dinged on rocks so small repairs are common.

On a repair that size the resin choice will be more important than any fibre. I'd be a little worried about using standard Araldite glue as it can be brittle but might be ok. Adhesion shouldn't be a problem if you clean the area.

Posted 8 months ago #
Love Tubs - Member

aracer has a good point, it's not and impact or stress fracture. If it were me, and the LBS/manufacturer OK'd it, I'd layer up the hole with resin 'micro' wet-n-dry the surface and finish off with a carbon cable rub (the irony) patch.

It doesn't seem to be in an area prone to failure, like other carbon phots we've all seen...there are professional carbon repair folks that I'm sure could sort it

http://www.carboncyclerepairs.co.uk/index.html

Posted 8 months ago #
aracer - Member

It will if it's for a carbon fibre boat. Plenty of competition boats (Polo, slalom etc.) are carbon. Paddles are often carbon too. They get dinged on rocks so small repairs are common.

I have carbon boats and paddles - can't say I've seen a "repair kit" with carbon in though (people in to doing that level of stuff would source the raw materials - kits tend to have glass in) - personally I've always used kevlar for repairs on the basis it's better than carbon at resisting any new impact (and also because I got a job lot from an ex-gf's dad). Anyway, my polo boats always got repaired with gaffer tape

I'd be a little worried about using standard Araldite glue as it can be brittle but might be ok.
Hmm - araldite is actually very flexible compared to the any fibres you'd put in it - just like any matrix used for composites. It is after all just epoxy resin.

I've actually got a very similar size ding on my boat I should be repairing today, and for that I'll be sanding back to good material then filling the hole with some fibre filler with epoxy, which is the optimum thing to do unless you're putting a new layer over everything.

Posted 8 months ago #
andrewh - Member

THanks everyone.
Those people at Carbon Bike Repairs look good, and not too far away either. (almost a liitle too good tbh, mending Sauser's frame and the completly trashed Boardman seems a little implausable, and 50% up front makes me wonder too. Maybe I'm too suspicious...) Anyone had any experience of them? I notice some of Druidh's headed paper in the testimonals bit. If you are reading this druid would you recomend them?
I don't really famcy trying it myself, just in case.
I've had no end of trouble with various carbon frames. My next one will be Ti (at least it can be welded!)

Posted 8 months ago #
andrewh - Member

Having been sat in the garage since the end of the season while I mess around on the singlespeed the earlier than usual start to this coming season has made me get my bum into gear at last and get it sorted. I have taken Uplink and Merchant B's advice (so obviously if it fails catestrophically and I am seriously injured I will hold them responsible)
Results here http://andrewhowett.blogspot.com/2012/01/mending-carbon-frame.html seems alright but I've not ridden it yet. I actually did the final race of last year with the hole there, just some duct tape over to keep the water out, seemed fine then so can't imagine it being any worse now.

Posted 4 months ago #
myheadsashed - Member

lol I see you have the same w@nky bottle cages on. Form over function

Posted 4 months ago #

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