Spesh R+D, testing and pro support is way way in excess of someone like Ellsworth for eg, so surely Spesh could well produce the ‘better’ product?

Assuming that spesh has the best designers and engineers, which I don’t agree is the case. Personally I think Trek has a superior product despite being smaller. The same could still be argued for smaller brands again. And at the end of the day; it’s a bicycle, the shock design is done by fox and RS etc.

i reckon this’ll qualify 😉

Ellsworth for eg, so surely Spesh could well produce the ‘better’ product?

yet strangely the ellsworth epiphany is rated by bike mags internationally as one of the best 5″ trail bikes in the world

Elfin, no sorry, the munqe chicks post about scs!
( notthe sofa shop by the way, although I guess that is a tad ironic!)

Spesh also probably have very high margins and a lot of marketing spend, which might go somewhere towards eating up some of that budget. It’s also spread very thinly across a huge range of bikes.

Bikes are still simple enough for smallish brands to be able to push the boundaries imo. Although Carbon is starting to make a difference in this regard.

Assuming that spesh has the best designers and engineers, which I don’t agree is the case. Personally I think Trek has a superior product despite being smaller.

They’re both massive companies. With much larger R+D budgets than Ellsworth or On-One or IF. And with a far greater ‘market penetration’ than any ’boutique’ brand. So, a lot more potential feedback than others.

You think Trek is better than Spesh, but is there a genuine difference? A measurable advantage of one over another? Really?

yet strangely the ellsworth epiphany is rated by bike mags internationally as one of the best 5″ trail bikes in the world

That’s as maybe, but still has little affect on global bicycle sales. A handful of subjective reviews does not equate to extensive global R+D exercises; Spesh and Trek will have their bikes and kit being raced and ridden all over the World, at myriad different events and situations.

Plus they have people like these, riding their bikes:

You think Trek is better than Spesh, but is there a genuine difference? A measurable advantage of one over another? Really?

Is any perceived performance gain measurable? Ive ridden bikes from both of a similar age and spec and I’d far sooner drop my money on the Trek.

Spesh and Trek will have their bikes and kit being raced and ridden all over the World, at myriad different events and situations.

Almost all brands have sponsored riders riding many varied events. Some cannot afford the higher profile ones because they’re not mass producing bikes across the board. The sales of spesh’s cheap commuter bikes must fund much of this marketing.
I have no axe to grind with spesh, I’ll take each bike on it’s own merit (I like the pitch) To say that any companies bikes are better than any others because they’re bigger is not accurate IMO.

could a top of the range dh bike be considered boutique? they can be stupidly expensive.

to me boutique suggests a certain elegance and an emotional response to the attention to detail. not so much fashion over function but certainly a strong aesthetic appeal.

maybe i dont understand though…

sounds like a marque thing, once you add a cheap (tho definition of cheap is wildy varied) model to the range your marque is tainted and no longer “boutique” Also how common is your product? If you are successful and lots of people own your stuff you aren’t boutique either.

I’d say boutique is frame only + not very common – but all brands start like that don’t they?

In my opinion it has to be hand made. My Storck is rare and expensive (well, I think it is) but I wouldn’t class it as boutique – it came out of a mould in Germany. A hand made IF Crown Jewel at half the price would be though. I also think it has to be steel, or Ti. I think there are pretty few real boutique MTB frames. Black sheep, IF, Jones – I’m sure there are others and NAHMB or whatever its called probably proves this. There are probably many more in the Road world. But a carbon or alloy FS bike to me isn’t boutique.

As to whether they are any better? From a purely functional point of view I doubt it. But thats not what its about. I can appreciate a highly finished road frame made from steel/ti with lovely looking lugs, deep paint and nice components. It’s probably heavier than my carbon ‘generic’ road bike but then I’m not buying it to race crits or TT’s on, I’m buying it to just enjoy riding and looking at it.

Look at clothing boutiques – limited quantities of highly finished goods made by small companies/single person sold at high prices. Apply the same forumula to bikes…

Just saw this. I thought it might add some perspective to the discussion!

Is that cassette rusted to ****?

Is any perceived performance gain measurable? Ive ridden bikes from both of a similar age and spec and I’d far sooner drop my money on the Trek.

That’s simply expressing a personal preference rather than actual fact. Meaningless in any discussion about any real benefits of one thing over another in a wider context.

To say that any companies bikes are better than any others because they’re bigger is not accurate IMO.

That’s not actually what I’m saying. Hence why ‘better’ was in quote thingies. But I do feel the fact that Spesh and Trek’s products are ridden by people at the very top of their sports suggests their products are actually pretty good, whilst most ’boutique’ manufacturers simply don’t have this as part of their marketing.

But if I were in the market for a decent bike, I simply couldn’t discount Spesh and Trek, just because they’re big companies. It does seem that they know what they’re doing, and I’d need more convincing that some niche boutique brand offered my any advantage over a ‘mainstream’ product. But that’s just me.

Boutique simply means a small specialised producer. That’s it.

Trek, Specialized, Giant = Not Boutique

Most of the others = Boutique

It means nothing it’s just marketing crap as usual. Both kinds of business have their hits and misses.

I would argue that you are very likely to get a better product from a mainstream brand for a given budget.

I agree with all of that elf. The proof is in the eating as they say.
I test rode trek’s and spesh’s recently. Both good bikes and would’ve been happy on either. This purchase was a bit special though so went for something different (and more expensive) which IMHO rode considerably better than anything else I tried and as such was worth the extra moneys to me

I’m sorry but a £6500 Trek is ’boutique’ by the very nature of it’s price!!

Strictly according to the english langauge a 1985 Specialized Stumpjumper is equally boutique because of it’s rariety nowadays – eat that stw bike snobs… 😛

Anyone been to the new Specialized boutique in Covent Garden?

This purchase was a bit special though so went for something different (and more expensive) which IMHO rode considerably better than anything else I tried and as such was worth the extra moneys to me

As long as your happy and think it represents value to you then that’s all that really matters. I do think a lot of people buy boutique/niche bikes because of the way they think it portrays them though, rather than for any particular quality of the product in its own right. They then feel they have to tell the world how wonderful it is, although often I think they’re doing that to convince themselves as much as anything else!

I think it’s good that people buy something that makes them feel good, however it does get a bit wearing when they feel they need to evangelise to the rest of the world on its benefits – especially if, as in most cases, there aren’t really any.

As someone who’s bought boutique/obscurist stuff in the past I can see I’ve done it as well e.g. bought something, told everone how it was the mutts nuts etc. and then found that a year on I’d sold it in favour of something more mainstream…

On the cycling front I’ve ended up with 4 Specializeds, 3 Cotics, a Boardman and an On-One – so nothing particularily boutique there.

BTW – Turners clearly aren’t boutique anymore, stock em high, sell em cheap Merlin sell them nowadays… 😉

it does get a bit wearing when they feel they need to evangelise to the rest of the world on its benefits

Ha, I know who that’s aimed at!
Are Turners boutique? I couldn’t care less!
It does what I want very well (and I didn’t buy a cheap one!!!).

Ha, I know who that’s aimed at!

It’s not aimed at anyone in particular (although I was thinking about Mac owners a bit)!

benny, no its not, it is an expensive bike made by a mainstream brand who also sell £200 bikes. As others have said the word boutique is usually associated with fashion/clothing- shops that only sell expensive items from brands that only make expensive clothing.

Santa Cruz, Giant, Trek (and the likes of VW, Audi) all make expensive (and no doubt brilliant) products, but as they also make cheaper “entry level” products they aren’t boutique. A £6500 Trek isnt boutique as its likely to be lined up on the shop floor next to a cheaper item from the same brand, devaluing the cache of the brand. An Ibis Mojo or a Turner (cheaper than that £6.5K Trek of yours) is boutique as the cost of entry to the brand is high (even though they are getting popular and available at the likes of CRC).

edit; same goes for the Ford GT40. It might be as expensive as and better than a porsche or ferrari but it isnt boutique. Boutique is all about the brand and it’s image, not the quality of the individual item/model (plenty of mainstream bikes are better than boutique bikes but thats not the point). Many of the mainstream car manufacturers have a marque to try score some boutique prestige, Lexus-toyota, Infiniti-nissan to differentiate them further from cheaper offerings carrying the corporate badge. To my mind boutique=the manufacturer not the individual model.

Clearly, a mainstream brand can be boutique. Ford made the GT40 as well as the Fiesta…

But as a general rule, I think of boutique bikes as similar to my Giant, except less well made and a lot more expensive.

Just because you think it ransos, it doesn’t make it anywhere near true.

Just because you think it ransos, it doesn’t make it anywhere near true.

+1 for Turners anyway 🙂

Mighty depend which Turner though – weren’t there some that were rather failure prone?

If Giant happened to make 10 bikes, each hand painted & costing £15,000 & sold through a tiny independent outlet in Harrod’s they would by that very nature be boutique, the fact they were Giant’s would be irrelevant.

Santa Cruz ……. make cheaper “entry level” products

They do…?

ALL manufacturers have problems;
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=617291
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=370741

To balance the view;
Intense were almost renowned for misalignment
Turner may have had problems (not aware but not denying it)

I reckon I’ve seen to many Santa Cruz’s on the trails for them to be boutique – Blur’s used to be quite a common sight at Glentress.

Errr, according to stw’ers a VW can’t possibly be boutique because they’re such a big brand… yeah right… 😉

http://www.boutiquecampervan.co.uk/campervan.php

Boutique might depend on audience as well – frames like Ragley, On-One, Cotic, Dialled Bikes are pretty commonplace on STW but perhaps they’d be boutique anywhere else.

The 2009 Turner models had some problems at the so-called taco weld, which got a warranty swap. Think 2010+ have been ok.

I suppose these ’boutique’ manufacturers have less testing resources, but I followed the Turner blog b4 buying mine and it seemed to me that they had done as much as reasonably possible and then supported customers for problems found later.

I tested a Turner against a Giant before I bought mine and the price difference was justified by the performance improvement imho.

The term boutique here is a total misnomer and it’s totally subjective. It might be relevant when talking about handbags or jeans but bikes, like cars are designed to perform not just look good and are judged accordingly. That’s why

this ford

is infinitely more expensive and prestigious than this ferrari.

Nissan is one of the most common, non “boutique” car brands in the world but the R390 is one of the most exotic and most expensive cars in the world because it’s racing pedigree and uncompromising design.

In the same way this specialized

or this honda

will get a lot more attention down the trails than ANY ibis, or turner or any other limited production expensive bike you care to mention, no matter how bling.

An ultra rare, ultra expensive bike can still be a piece of sh*t and will be regarded as such.

Just because you think it ransos, it doesn’t make it anywhere near true.

No, but the fact that I’m right and you’re wrong does.

To tell if your bike’s boutique or not just ask yourself this question.

Did the first picture you saw of it look something like this or did you see it being advertised in any of the popular mags?

stu 29 high roller3 (1) by singlespeedstu, on Flickr

If the answer’s you saw it advertised in a mag then it ain’t boutique.

No, but the fact that I’m right and you’re wrong does.

I may be wrong on your planet. On Earth, giant bikes are not of a higher quality than anyone elses. Earthly fact.

I would class a boutique brand as being small scale and hand built for that particular individual.

Boutique to me would be Moots, Potts, IF, Eriksen, Black Sheep, Roberts etc.

I wouldn’t class S-Works, Ibis, Turner, Trek etc as boutique as they are mass produced standard geometry / colour frames. Although they are still fantastic bikes that I would love to own.

luckily I own no “boutique” stuff so I can soundly mock all your ego chariots safe in my mediocrity 😀