I’ve just finished a 2 day outdoor first aid course with the rather excellent Elements First Aid, and it’s clear that when it hits the fan in the hills, you need some sort of bag/shelter. This big old survival bags are frankly heavy enough that I’d not want to take it on pretty much any ride. But mini bothy bags don’t look as sturdy if you needed to bodge a stretcher (extreme case, I know). Bivvys could be a good idea, but there’s no way you could get an unconscious or badly broken casualty inside one without scissors. Anyone had to use one and got an opinion?

If your going down that route how about a tarp over a bivvy versatile to provide shelter and lifting.

Bothy 4 or bigger or Kisu any day. You can get a casualty out of the weather with one or two carers, warm them up and check them out. I struggle to think of a situation where you would want to bodge a stretcher – if someone needs carrying out, you will have the MRT or air ambulance to do that (unless you couldn’t call MRT, or they could not reach you) – it takes a lot of people to carry a casualty any distance.
MRT all carry Bothy/kisu bags, they’re small and light.

Bothy bag for group use, both in emergencies and just for eating your lunch.
Survival bag for individual emergency use.
Bivvy bag for a planned night out in OK weather.

Check out these for an ultra light survival bag (not a true bivvy like the name suggests): http://www.facewest.co.uk/AMK-Heatsheets-Emergency-Bivvy.html

Same as spin, horses for courses. However, at the very least I always carry a vacuum packed emergency bag (not blanket) when biking and mountain walking/climbing

But mini bothy bags don’t look as sturdy if you needed to bodge a stretcher (extreme case, I know).

As gallowayboy points out this is really unlikely. Carrying a casualty is bloody hard, rarely necessary and likely to do more harm than good.

Vacuum packed blizzard bag, very warm, small pack size.
Found here

Bothy bag – I can’t imagine any situation where the casualty is so badly injured that (1) they need a stretcher; (2) the best plan is to stretcher them out on an improvised stretcher; (3) you have enough people to carry out that plan; (4) where simply sheltering that casualty with an effective bothy bag (and shared heat) isn’t actually the best prospect.

In fact, I can’t think of many situations where you’d need to carry a casualty out and serious pain relief – beyond anything you will be carrying – wouldn’t be required.

Plus if you need a stretcher it’s then an MR or air ambulance job. That’s not first aid.

I was thinking that bothy bag makes more sense, and wanted to see if anyone thought the alternatives were better. The point I was badly making was that the only reason a survival bag makes more sense is that they’re pretty sturdy, so could be useful for other stuff. I’m certainly not planning on stretchering any time soon!

I was thinking that bothy bag makes more sense, and wanted to see if anyone thought the alternatives were better.

I think that unless you’re leading groups (or like to stop for extended breaks in crap weather) a very small and light survival bag makes more sense. The one I linked to is so small that you can just leave it in a bag and forget about it. Bothy bags are much bulkier.

Yeah – a bothy bag is just a big, flappy bit of fabric if you don’t have enough folk to give it “structure”. I have a foil blanket, orange plastic emergency bag, eVent bivvy bag and both two-man and four-man bothy bags. I just choose what is likely to be the most appropriate, though a foil blanket is so small and inconspicuous that there’s rarely a need to leave it behind.

Of course, it also depends on where you are riding/walking, how far you are from help and the potential difficulties of any extraction.

I have a 2 person bothy shelter that is small enough to fit in my pack and is pretty lightweight too.

I have a few options, from blanket and blizzard bags to bothy bag, but recently acquired an emergency bivvy bag

Like a mylar bivvy bag, packs don tiny and seems very light. Good for a trip to the hills

I have a 2 person bothy bag that is only fit for midgets .It`s the Terra Nova one and no good for me at 6ft 4 and my 5ft 9 wife

I’ve always wondered how good those foil blankets are. Anyone used one in anger?

They can be quite effective in helping to retain heat/minimise heat loss. You’ve got to be very careful opening them though or you can be left holding two scraps of silver plastic whilst watching the rest of your “blanket” making off in the wind. Wearing one under a jacket is a good way of strengthening it.

What’s the name of that bothy bag Co. that pops up in the forum occasionally?
They do 2, 3 and 4 man , with windows etc?, orange, good value…

I have a 2 person bothy bag that is only fit for midgets .It`s the Terra Nova one and no good for me at 6ft 4 and my 5ft 9 wife

are you using it right? Its not supposed to be spacious.

I’ve always wondered how good those foil blankets are. Anyone used one in anger?

I’ll disagree with scotroutes on this. I think they are essentially useless! Especially in an outdoor situation. They might be useful if you are a “bit” cold and need an extra layer as Scotroutes suggests putting under clothing. As any sort of shelter from the elements they are poor. They aren’t big enough to get shared body heat under. The person staying with the casualty needs to keep warm too, so you’ll need more than one in the ‘group’. Once opened its never going back in the bag – so it can only be used in the “emergency” situation, not during the hail storm at lunchtime when a little warmth might mean you don’t crash on the way home.

Not tried the blizzard bag or similar; They are a 1 man solution – and I think good if you get caught out, but would need re-engineering to get a casualty with back or leg injuries into (which are presumably are the likely reasons on a bike crash for needing one). I have used bothy bags (and much bigger KISU) as well as “space blanket” in both real life and training. They are light years apart. The bothy bag is big though and I only carry it on longer rides away from help.

Terra nova 2 man here, will take 2 1/2 to 3 normal sized adults if you need to. Sits 2 to get out of the weather fine. Perfect for navigation, warming up or eating on a shit day. It’s not a regular bit of kit but always been welcomed when it’s needed. Last one was trying to work out an escape route in a blizzard.

What’s the name of that bothy bag Co. that pops up in the forum occasionally?

Lomo?

I was involved in an incident on Leith Hill a few years back. Not a remote place by any means. The medics had to carry a guy off the hill – max distance 100m. They had all the kit, all the training and were big, burly guys. It looked horrendous and a real struggle to do. There were 8 of them, taking it in turns. By the end they looked knackered and were glad to put the guy into the ambulance.

I’ve used a foil blanket in anger. I still was freezing but that was shock more than anything.

I carry a foil blanket and a orange plastic survival bag. And I’m thinking of a 2man shelter for my next jaunt.

I’ve always wondered how good those foil blankets are. Anyone used one in anger?

It’s worth noting that the kit lists for most long fell races specify ‘bag not blanket’.

+1 foil bag, lives in our first aid kit.

There you go, a whopping £1.54 on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Waterproof-Reusable-Portable-Survival-Silver-Foil-Emergency-Camping-Sleeping-Bag-/221674166054

not Lomo.

Its a Co that seems to ONLY make survival shelters, and sells them on a basic website.

The space blanket only deals with radiation heat loss which is typically the smallest proportion, you need to deal mainly with conduction and convection. As soon as you lie on the ground then you and the ground will attempt to achieve thermal equilibrium and it’s a good bet that the several trillion, trillion tonnes of earth and rock will win out over the 100Kg or so of flesh. So having some form of mat to provide insulation is a good idea.

The shelters mentioned above can all provide protection but what they all lack is structure. It’s all well and good having something between you and the howling gale but if it’s pressing against you and the casualty then a few fractions of a millimetre of nylon aren’t going to do much good. Two bikes upside down and a tarp or similar pegged out across them will give you a better environment and also some room in which to deal with the casualty. The Rig3.5 mentioned above has pull-outs in the middle of the tarp so you can tension things better.

The Rig3.5 weighs 300g, add in a few pegs and line so call it 400g. An inflatable insulated sleeping mat is in the region of 400g – 500g. Both pack down to a litre to litre and a half in size. Worth considering in a group if you are heading out on exposed or remote trails.

I was thinking that bothy bag makes more sense, and wanted to see if anyone thought the alternatives were better. The point I was badly making was that the only reason a survival bag makes more sense is that they’re pretty sturdy, so could be useful for other stuff.

I just see them as two completely different things. One is a luxury item for making a lunch stop more pleasant. One is part of your emergency first aid kit, hopefully never to be used.
However, in MTB you’re likely to have a casualty and a group of wet muddy inappropriately dressed bystanders, so maybe you’re right about the bothy shelter
Although I’d still be inclined to stick the casualty in a bag, leave someone with them with warm clothing, the rest ride on to get help.

The space blanket only deals with radiation heat loss which is typically the smallest proportion, you need to deal mainly with conduction and convection.

I’ve been given one when borderline hypothermic (cold enough that I’d lost the finger strength to unbutton my fly!), they do a surprisingly good job.

Not great, but it was waterproof, windproof, and reflects heat which was enough to go from soaked by rain, in the wind, and shivering to not getting any worse.

I keep one in a jersey pocket even on XC rides as it’s small and weighs nothing and if you have an accident it’ll keep the casualty comfortable for 20min whilst you wait for the ambulance.

just got a couple of these emergency bivvy bags :

here

for a Cairngorm loop a group of us are doing later this week. Absolutely tiny and seems well made

Just dig a shallow grave and carry on riding

The humble poncho, of any variety from bin bag plastic type to much heavier construction takes some beating.

Once sat down with it covering your knees you are virtually impervious to weather and warm up surprisingly quickly, and you can still just don one to shake off a huge unexpected rainstorm

Bring back the cycle cape!

Foil bag not blanket. Stops the wind loss.