Posted this many times before, but to me. This talks to me:

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He was not there; I went to the Temple of the Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I able to find Him. I went to the Caaba in Mecca, but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was nowhere else to be found.

__________________________________________________________________________

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu,
Buddhist, Sufi, or zen.
Not any religion or cultural system.
I am not from the East or the West,
not out of the ocean or up from the ground,
not natural or ethereal, not composed of elements at all.
I do not exist, am not an entity of this world or next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any origin story.
My place is placeless, a trace of the traceless.
Neither body or soul.
I belong to the beloved, have seen the two worlds as one
and that one call to and know, first, last, outer, inner,
only that breath breathing human being.

I’d kind of forgotten how IT forums are.

Hey you know what? I just thanked God for this discussion, you can thank someone else if you want. Why? Well, at least we CAN discuss this openly. I hear of too many places where this sort of discussion, and even more so the practice of my faith, could land me (and others) in jail/tortured/killed etc.

Did I mention my new bike arrives tomorrow? ;-D

Mike isnt that because the bible can interpreted by one person to detest homosexuals and by another to love everybody equally.

Not much of a moral instruction manual is it?

it takes AS MUCH faith, to believe in the non-existence of God (and his/her prophets etc) as it does to believe in them.

What complete b…….s!

My belief in the non-existence in god (note the lowercase ‘g’) is based entirely on the lack of evidence for the counter belief. And the use of the word ‘belief’ is not hypocritical in this debate from an atheist either.. That’s another utterly rubbish argument from the religious that’s frequently trotted out.

Atheism is not defined by lack of belief. I believe in lots of things. I also have faith in many things too. I just have no ‘faith’ in any kind of religion because I ‘believe’ there is no evidence for it.

I ‘Believe’ there is no god. I have ‘faith’ in my convictions in this as the evidence I have examined and that which has been presented to me does not support the theory of a ‘god’. It appears that I can be thankful for my right to try and convince others of this, which I choose to do so only because religious types take up their right to try and convert me. If they stopped, so would I.

“Exactly – there is as little evidence for the existence of God (discounting of course the various anthropic principles, which are less religious in content and more philosophical) as there is evidence for the non-existence of God.”

As Bertrand Russell pointed out, you can’t prove that there isn’t a teapot orbiting the earth right now…

even more so the practice of my faith, could land me (and others) in jail/tortured/killed etc.

…or the practice of the wrong faith 🙁

As Bertrand Russell pointed out, you can’t prove that there isn’t a teapot orbiting the earth right now…

I wondered where my teapot had gone!

Oh, and Buddhism is not a religion as it lacks a god, creation story, do’s and don’t’s etc… It is a philosophy and open to personal inspection and alteration according to the individual.

SSP

Exactly. You wouldn’t believe some of the stuff that happens to Christians in other countries. Not just the obvious ones either, ones which you may have been on holiday too.

And then, one Tuesday, over two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change there was a big argument on STW.

Most if not all religions are based on being nice to each other but they always have and probably always will be used by unscrupulous people to further their own aims so much so that a lot of the general public want nothing to do with any of them.

I’m not a very religeous person but I have a CoE background, Mark has some noteable points other than that thers a lot of crap being talked which I’m not even going to try to contradict with one or two exceptions. Religeous groups DO help those in trouble like the homeless and alcholics, charitable acts (targeting the vulnerable the cynics will say) that try to help the helpless. Yes Catholic church tells people not to use condoms it could be argued that causes a lot of deaths (HIV infection etc) but they also say don’t shag around. The 2 go hand in hand really dont they, both together (or neither) actually makes sense.

Religions not for everybody but it helps a lot of people with their lives and anyone with a passion for something likes company, I certainly try to spread the word of mountain biking.

Religion…good idea on the whole, not always well executed.

IMO

In response to singlespeedpunk, do we have a definition of what counts as a religion here? Does a mental construct count as a religion when it determines your life regardless of whether you choose to believe in it, as in the case of money?

Exactly. You wouldn’t believe some of the stuff that happens to Christians in other countries. Not just the obvious ones either, ones which you may have been on holiday too.

You wouldn’t believe some of the stuff that happens to Christians in other countries.

And what about persecution by christians to other faiths? All preach they are the only true religion* and everyone else is a devil worshiper thus they are perfectly allowed to do terrible things to people in gods name. Oh, and before you trott out the “love they neighbour” twaddle what stops you doing that with out the treat of god punishing your ass?

There are good people and there are bad people, from my experience religion affects them all to a degree and excuses the really bad.

SSP

*If there is a god, which one is it and how f***ed are the rest of the people? My moniey’s on Baal 🙂

Is it just me or are there other people on here who have not had a ‘godbotherer’ trying to convert them. I think I fall into the, i believe in something but I’m not sure what. Being married to a Catholic teacher, I’m thinking anytime now she’s gonna do it, she’s gonna try and convert me………but no. Although she has got me going to church at christmas (only because it makes me feel christmassy) – flipin ek, I’ll be wearing a cross and all sorts next….

DONK, well said.

Mark – You could try reading the following for an intellectual (and scientific) debate on the existence of God:

The Physics of Immortality by Frank Tippler
God and the New Physics and The Mind of God both by Paul Davies

Both authors are highly respected scientists and offer a very interesting philosophical approach to the subject of God and religion in general.

Also consider reading Karl Popper – All Life is Problem solving. He takes an interesting view on what consistutes ‘scientific’.

I’m sure your arguments aren’t b—–s, (they are actually quite interesting and I completely respect them), as aren’t mine. But as the administrator of this site, you really should hold yourself to a higher standard than simply whitewashing an argument as being b—–s.

[Rant: award marks out of 10]

If belief in the Tooth Fairy, Santa, Gaia etc, get’s you through the day, go ahead ‘cos I’m not going knock it. If you can live without God, then I admire you, but Atheism isn’t for everyone. You would not kick away a disabled person crutch. What gives you the right to judge that my faith isn’t good for me?
Did you know that the Alcoholics Anonymous programme is founded on a religious practices and faith in a ‘God’? Yet everyone accepts the value of AA helping the 1:20 adults who have an alcohol problem. And their faith is unchallenged.
Religious people know the value of faith and practice tolerance to other faiths and atheists. Please reciprocate, and please, please, please stop riding this hobby-horse on the cycling forum.

Religion…good idea on the whole, not always well executed.

I’d disagree, I think it’s a bad idea very badly executed.
You don’t need to be religeous (any religion) in order to do good things as Donk points out, anyone can do that. In fact the Bible is about the worst book you can follow if you want a moral guide to living your life.

Right, I’m late to this thread and can’t be bothered to read through the posts. So could someone precis for me. Ideally I’d like the name of the most argumentive souls (in the secular sense) on both sides of the argument so that I can start trolling.
Have we covered wars and gays yet?
Cheers.

In fact the Bible is about the worst book you can follow if you want a moral guide to living your life.

yeah, it’s full of smiting and genocide 🙁

“Religious people…practice tolerance to other faiths and atheists”

If only that were true.

yeah, it’s full of smiting and genocide [:-(]

Hey let’s not forget the Sodomy. I wonder why it only became known as ‘sodomy’ and not ‘sodom and ghomorrahry’

Religion promotes arrogance in man. Thats why religion is so popular. It promotes elitism, arrogance and tribalism. All part of the human makeup. Some may say the worse parts of humanity.

Says it all for me.

Does a mental construct count as a religion when it determines your life regardless of whether you choose to believe in it

A mental construct such as a personal list of things to do / not to do in your life to help you along. These can be formulated at an early age and altered along the way by changing circumstances and experience. At no point do people need a bloke living in the sky to tell them what to do. With a little commonsense and empathy you can pretty much arrive at a workable philosophy that knocks spots off many organised religions.

The Dalai Lama said “There are 6 billion people on the planet and part of me thinks we need 6 billion religions”

Money is an interesting example. Money is real and its effects are real. As to the “financial markets” well thats like a bookies… 🙂

SSP

yeah, it’s full of smiting and genocide 🙁

Along with infanticide, rape, murder, looting, pillaging, homophobia and pretty much every other violent/intolerant trait known to mankind, much of committed under direct instruction from “God” or at the very least to please “God”.

My position as site administrator should influence by ‘beliefs’? Really?

Don’t assume I have not read those books.. I have in fact read one of them.. I have also read the Koran and the bible. The Koran very recently. I find it only right that before I argue against something I should have at least a rudimentary knowledge of it.

My opinion is that the argument that it’s is valid to hold a belief in something because you can’t disprove it utterly incomprehensible. believe in something because their is evidence FOR it – that I find a rational argument. I have no time for the former ONLY because it is a force that actively affects my day to day life in the fact it limits my choices and gives unfair access to aspects of our society to those that do believe in it.

If that were not the situation I would be happy to discuss the topic as an interesting thought experiment and an excercise in philosophy. Unfortunately religious belief is not that benign is it?

Don’t assume my slightly hostile arguing is in anyway an indication of intolerance towards anyones’ personal beliefs. My attacks are precisely because religious beliefs have an intrinsic policy of conversion of the unbeliever. If they were to lose that aspect entirely I’d be the politest person to debate this topic with.

Wow. How did I manage to miss this one???

I’ have to say, of all the people I know, the ones who seem the happiest, are mostly those who have some form of belief, as part of their lives. I do know some pretty content atheists, too, but tbh, many of the ‘non-believers’ seem to often be pessimistic and negative about things. Slag off those with faith, yet don’t seem to have faith in much, themselves. As for those who have some form of faith, they don’t really slag off the atheists, tbh. They just get on with their lives, according to their beliefs.

I work for a Christian charity, although I am not Christian myself. They are all really nice people; they did a really nice dinner for everyone just before Xmas, and there was only a tiny bit of prayers. Plus, they bought everyone gifts!

I don’t find my Christian friends ‘preachy’ at all. They know I have my own views and beliefs, and respect me for that. They’ve certainly never tried to ‘convert’ me, although they will say how much Christianity means to them, and perhaps I should give it some thought. Fair enough. I find consumer advertising to be far more brainwashing than any religious person I know.

Live and let live, and all that.

I’ve found some o the comments on here to be remarkably intolerant, I must say. and they seem to be from those who might consider themselves atheist…

Personally, I couldn’t think of anything worse than to be on a ride with a group of Christians set on converting everyone they meet. Why the bile? I have found it harder to live without my belief in God than with, my choice surely. Which this thread is increasingly getting away from, you DON’T have to go out with that Evangelical cycling group.You don’t have to believe in God. It’s called free will

I think it’s fair to say that, were there any evidence for the existence of a god, it would do as well for many of them – viz Christians have 3. In fact there might be an infinite number, or one per atom etc

questions I don’t see addressed are:
Is/are god(s) communist ? It seems there is no allowance for wealth to obtain a better position in heaven and indeed “It is harder for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle (or some other narrowish thing depending on translation)”

when will democracy be established ? Should we not be allowed to pick the gods of our choice via the ballot box ? Looking at the current state of the local universe I think a new, more humane administration is called for 🙁

Do god(s) believe in higher godlike entities, and conversely, are there beings who believe us to be gods ? A corollary is, does god or gods know it/they is/are ?

Rudeboy, can you be my spokesperson please? Very well said. 🙂

Slag off those with faith, yet don’t seem to have faith in much, themselves.

Is faith a requirement of life? Why do you think their arguments are lessened due to not havin any faith of their own? Do they require faith to be a good person?

As for those who have some form of faith, they don’t really slag off the atheists, tbh. They just get on with their lives, according to their beliefs.

Oh good grief! read the opening statement of this thread that openly claims their reason for being is to ‘spread the word’. ALL religions continue their existence by the conversion of the unbeliever by the vehicle of preaching. They do not, as you say, leave the rest of us alone and get on with it. If that were the case I would have the same access to the education sysetm in this country as a Christian does. But I do not!

Live and let live, and all that.

Yes! Please. Oh yes! Believe what you will. Personally.. privately… but stay away from politics (religion is a prerequisite for political power), stay away from education (Either get rid of all religious schools or allow none-believers to set up their own schools that give priority to those who do NOT believe in any god – the former preferably). In short if any action taken by any person in a position of power over other people is based on any kind of belief in an omnipotent being then they should be removed from office. Power over any society has to be based on a set of rules, and beliefs common to ALL. There IS common ground between believers and none-believers. Neither side has an exclusive claim to morality.

A clever bloke once said, ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ I find as an atheist that sentiment gives me great comfort simply because I really, fully and without doubt think it is the right thing to do and is the foundation of the best way we can all get along as a society. I believe in that as I think there is plenty of evidence for it being a sound model for a productive a peaceful society. Not because that clever bloke claimed to be the son of a god.

Mark – Of course your position as site admin shouldn’t influence your beliefs. It was your statement of my argument being ‘complete b….s’ I felt was out of line.

But I love your arguments, seriously, I think they’re very well made.

Rudeboy, can you be my spokesperson please?

I think you need to have a little chat with your brother, before you get any ideas about me in that role! 😆

Thanks. I think that I have learned, from being around people with faith, to become a (hopefully) better person. I certainly know that behaving in a kind, caring and respectful manner towards others, can be very rewarding. I really can’t see what’s wrong with that. And I find the attitude of those who would mock anyone with faith, to be a bit sad, really. Sometimes, it seems as though someone is jealous of the happiness of another, and seeks to destroy the other’s happiness, rather than try to find some of their own. To me, that is wrong.

In that respect, I find some of the comments of the OP, echoed by one or two others, to be quite spiteful, and while they speak of the ‘intolerance’ of Christians etc, they are actually too blind to see their own bigotry!

The vast majority of religious people worldwide, just get on with their lives, and don’t attempt to radically change anyone else. It’s surely mainly the zealots, who seek to change the opinions of others, to suit their own, or to further their own agendae. Ironic, therefore, that in a thread where ‘atheists’ have attacked others for their ‘intolerance’ that they have shown themselves to be the most intolerant! 😯

To Each, Their Own….

Hmm ignoring the religeous only bits (4) of the 10 commandments the rest are
dont murder
dont steal
dont be jealous
dont shag around
dont lie
be nice to your mum and dad.
Probably not a bad set of rules to live by. Yes the original bible also had a fair bit of stuff about vengeance and retribution but the sequel was a lot more chilled and basicly said it’s nice to be nice.

Of course it’s all open to interpretation (which is one of the good and bad things about it) I guess everyones own interpretation of it says a lot about them.

I’m not trying to convert anyone to anything (except the aforementioned mountain biking) but religion has had a shedload of bad press a fair portion of it deservedly, but the essence behind it is good not bad.

Then I will apologise for my ‘b……s’ comment. I agree, it was out of line.

Now, back to it….

you DON’T have to go out with that Evangelical cycling group.You don’t have to believe in God. It’s called free will

I find this statement from a christian to be reassuring. But do you not therefore get terribly frustrated that the leaders of your religion don’t hold the same philosophy?

I think we are getting to the core of the problem here.. Religious belief is benign ONLY on a personal level and when couched in the quote above. Orgainsised religion is certainly NOT benign and exists solely to influence the lives of ALL of society in an attempt to swell their own ranks. Historically this has invariably been driven by the desire for power and wealth.

Organised religion is invariably a destructive power in society. Personal beliefs tend to only lead to interesting debates like this one.

This is a rather intriguing article.I does not deal with the existence or otherwise of god, but with the nature of the ten commandments, their original social context and their subsequent manipulation.

David Bodanis in Prospect

God was the father of mountain biking

deuteronomy 32-13

Not that that convinces me that he exists, but at least if he did we could have a chat about what tyres for heaven

Is faith a requirement of life?

It is for me, several on this forum, and indeed billions of others. Note, I speak of ‘faith’, rather than ‘Faith’. The same way as you spell ‘god’ thusly.

ALL religions continue their existence by the conversion of the unbeliever by the vehicle of preaching

I dare say a certain amount of advertising and PR is involved, but why is that such a bad thing? I’d say the systematic attempts to brainwash people to spend money they don’t have, is far more worrying (indeed, it appears the ideology of Greed is what is driving much of Human conflict, and causing much of the suffering, too. Religion is often scapegoated, imo).

But why is it such an issue for you? Lighten up a bit. I don’t agree with a lot of ‘religious’ stuff, but try not to let it bother me too much. I take far greater issue with banks offering me credit and loans i cannot afford,tbh, as I think this is potentially far more damaging in our society. Neither a Lender nor a Borrower be…

I agree 100% that religion should be kept away from the arena of children’s education. The teaching/indoctrination/brainwashing of a child should be kept within the realm of the family, imo. Whether that be Atheism, Judaism, Islam, Sufiism, Jainism, whatever… But treat all children equally. If you want little Johnny togrow up Christian or Atheist, or whatever, then that’s your job, as a parent, not the job of the education system. At least afford them one area of life that is free from religious/ideological rhetoric.

But, as a Former Atheist, I grew to learn that actually, people with faith were not all that different to me, really. And I could quite happily accept their differences, as they accepted mine. If someone is intolerant and disrespectful to me and my beliefs, then **** ’em. I’ll just leave them to it. I know what gives me pleasure and happiness in life, so I’ll stick to that. If someone can show me a better way around something, then maybe I’ll listen, and follow their advice. But it will be my call.

Hmm; New STW has actually become a forum for (mostly) intelligent, reasonable, polite, respectful debate.

What’s gone wrong???? 😯

Markus Brigstocke’s amazing radio article from The Now Show on R4.

Really rather sensible – worth 7mins of your time

SSP

If someone is intolerant and disrespectful to me and my beliefs, then **** ’em

you’re mixing things up, intolerant and disrespectful are separate, one can be one without the other, or at least disrespectful but not intolerant, and ‘me and my beliefs’ are quite distinct – you can respect a person while having contempt for their ideas, particularly beliefs, which are ideas held without evidence. What a person chooses to believe is merely the whim of the moment and may bear little or no relation to their character