Have the police in Northern Ireland not been routinely armed for decades with no big problems? So why couldn’t it work in the UK? I don’t buy the idea that the Uk police are unique in the worlds police forces that they couldn’t be trained to use firearms properly.

Though actually I would prefer more ARVs to routine arming of all cops. The criminals have guns so the police need them.

You guys are **** **** and that’s all there is to it.

* The L85A2’s are ****. They’ve been battered to death in the sands of Afghanistan and Iraq. They are coming to the end of their service lives within the next decade.

* We do not produce L85’s anymore, we only have a limited stock of supplies to rebuild the weapons. Consequently giving the police army surplus hand me downs is out of the question.

* L85’s even in the A2 guise are a **** pain, they’re not ambidextrous, they don’t collapse down like C8’s, they’re heavy, they’re prone to muzzle climb etc etc

* The MOD want to slowly phase out the L85 and so are procuring a new weapon.

* The police are not entirely happy with their G36’s, which they bought in small batches for high costs.

* The police want to be able to replace their ageing weapons with a weapon that is deemed fit for purpose by the MOD. The Army/Navy will put the weapons through selection and they will most likely do a better job of selecting the best weapon than the police could do alone.

* Buying in bulk with the MOD, will save the police a fortune. Currently they have wasted a lot of money buying small batches of various different weapons.

* Having the same weapons as the military will allow easier interforces training.

* The L85A2’s are ****. They’ve been battered to death in the sands of Afghanistan and Iraq.

And are still doing tours.

We do not produce L85’s anymore, we only have a limited stock of suppliers to rebuild the weapons. Consequently giving the police army surplus hand me downs is out of the question.

Really?
So what’s happening to the 12,000 surplus L85s shortly to be available?
My point is if they’re fit for Herrick; they’re fit for the police.

* L85’s even in the A2 guise are a **** pain, they’re not ambidextrous, they don’t collapse down like C8’s, they’re heavy, they’re prone to muzzle climb etc etc

But we have made do for the last 20 odd years in far more dangerous situations than the police will ever be in. And the SLRs which proceeded it were LOTS heavier and LOTS longer. But we managed.

* The MOD want to slowly phase out the L85 and so are procuring a new weapons.

Well that’s fair enough, and it makes sense to take advantage of economies of scale (same for points below).

CS, Taser & Pepper to deal with crims with guns, where do you sign I’m in. When they let me out of hospital that is.

Generally, the consensus is the L85’s are getting long in the tooth. There are no production lines open anymore, that means either you have to rely on surplus stocks or open short run production lines – this costs a fortune. This alone is enough to not consider them for police use, it will be more expensive to maintain them for the next 20 years than it will be to purchase new weapons.

Incidentaly this is the same reason why we’re slowly phasing out Challenger 2.

And well done for managing to mention the obligatory SLR’s 😆 . They’d be as **** useful as a 40mm cannon in a hostage situation.

* The police are not entirely happy with their G36’s, which they bought in small batches for high costs.

Cheeky gits. They ****ed up their procurement and now they just want whatever SF use. I’d be surprised if the Diemaco’s were the most cost effective though. I’d imagine M4s could be supplied cheaper by Colt, remington etc.
What’s your problem with SLRs? where did I mention a use for them?

Diemaco are owned by Colt you twit lol.

If you want to be outraged, why does this bother you and not the police mentioning “grenade launchers”. Priorities man.

So?
Doesn’t mean a C8 is the same price as the M4 does it?

Dorel owns cannondale and schwinn. Means nothing.

What makes you think I’m outraged?
I’m more concerned about how they spend our £s than anything else.
I don’t see why they should be driving BMWs either.

SLRs… From what I hear that’s a proper rifle. None of this newfangled SA80 rubbish. Bloody youngsters.

Wrecker, you may well have more experience in things like this than me, so I apologise in advance if that is the case, but a lot of things re still doing tours and they are worn out to hell and back. My old Frontera was still going when I had to get rid of it, but it was the right choice… When you hear that the part you need is no longer made and is not even held in stock in this country any more, you have to think it’s time to move on.

Leaving that argument aside for now, just ask why the the police even need long rifles anyway? With the exception of the marksmen, when have police ever needed something that can reach out to 300+m? Surely choosing something that will not overpenetrate in the situations that are likely would be a better choice? I would not want to be down-range of a G36-toting copper in Terminal 5 if they open up on someone.

Why should the police buy M4’s as opposed to Hk416s/C8’s or whatever the Army buys if they can get them at a knocked down price by buying in bulk? And we are in agreement, are we not, that the Army should get a decent weapon out the box this time round? Instead of spending a fortune upgrading a POS?

If they opt for a different weapon system it’s going to drive up costs.

With the exception of the marksmen, when have police ever needed something that can reach out to 300+m

Nail. Head.

MP7 ftw

And we are in agreement, are we not, that the Army should get a decent weapon out the box this time round? Instead of spending a fortune upgrading a POS?

Yep. I do believe you’re underestimating the ability of MOD to severely **** things up, but I admire an optimist.

Why should the police buy M4’s as opposed to Hk416s/C8’s or whatever the Army buys if they can get them at a knocked down price by buying in bulk?

I’m not suggesting they should. I’d be surprised if we get C8’s is what I’m saying. Think about the amount of M4s which are manufactured.

Except that it’s debatable whether the round from an MP7 can put someone down quick enough in a suicide-bomber situation etc.

You can put lighter grain hollow point rounds with less propellant in and reduce a lot of over penetration issues. An MP7 round is still going to cause serious injury at 300m anyway, even a .22 lr will.

@ Wrecker, the C8’s have largely the same internals as the M4. The Americans seem to be slowly replacing their M4 with various new toys anyway. Also it’s probably not wise to go with a direct-gas mechanism weapon, they need more regular maintenance, the army will probably want something that is squaddie proof. I’d be surprised if we get C8s or M4s. I think it will be an HK type piston mechanism.

true, but the same could be said about the SS109 if it comes out at a similar speed to what it went in at!

And that’s why the police have hollow points.

But that’s why you want a larger diameter round that will dump all its energy in the target immediately, rather than standard 5.56 which, let’s face it, the police will buy in bulk. Bog standard NATO ball. Anything else would be too niche and too expensive.

For the use case that the police have, using something that will put a heavy round into the target at longer range (5.56 or 7.62) will do one job, and having something like a 10mm or .45ACP SMG for shorter range situations will be perfectly adequate. Better than adequate in fact, both those rounds will not over penetrate and if you use hollowpoints, will make a big hole in target. They would also be relatively cheap to train with. Something like the UMP would do the job.

Mind you, the shakeys have pretty much mothballed their 9mm stuff in favour of the 10″ sfw for crw stuff as body armour is so readily available to naughty people nowadays. Penetration for them certainly beats the risk of over travel but I would have thought that police firearms units have much more to think about when it comes to not accidentally hitting nice people due to over penetration or travel.

As for c8/M4 they are to all intents and purposes the same. Proper gun nerd head could list the differences but then I’d look proper weird!

Armed police would terrify the British public, there’s a good reason why Brits refuse to go on holiday to places like Spain, France, Italy, the United States and Australia.

And to be honest on a Friday night around liverpool it’s not unusual to police with fully automatic weapons walking the street even nowadays. Doesn’t bother me at all.

But that’s why you want a larger diameter round that will dump all its energy in the target immediately, rather than standard 5.56 which, let’s face it, the police will buy in bulk. Bog standard NATO ball. Anything else would be too niche and too expensive.

For the use case that the police have, using something that will put a heavy round into the target at longer range (5.56 or 7.62) will do one job, and having something like a 10mm or .45ACP SMG for shorter range situations will be perfectly adequate. Better than adequate in fact, both those rounds will not over penetrate and if you use hollowpoints, will make a big hole in target. They would also be relatively cheap to train with. Something like the UMP would do the job.

Except the police do have lots of hollow points and it would be cheaper to shoot rounds with smaller charges than having several different weapons for different jobs, when an M4 could do everything from QQ work to longer range shoot outs in Hyde Park.

I reckon the police have already thought this out, don’t you?

Why would you want a low velocity .45 UMP for close quarters work when the targets are potentially carrying body armour? None of the pistol rounds are good against kevlar, which is why the P90/MP7 round was designed.

With 5.56 you can have mags loaded with various rounds to defeat various targets….bog standard ball, high velocity match rounds, armour piercing, hollowpoint, one company even manufactures subsonic rounds that allows the M4 to cycle properly etc…. you can’t do the same with .45 …………there was a reason they phased out the Thompson and it was mostly down to the calibre being a slow, recoil heavy round designed to take down cavalry during WW1.