When are you/we/they going to grow up and realise that this TUE debacle has NOTHING to do with ethics or cheating or morality and everything to do with politics. The whole bloody point of competition is that someone wins and someone loses and the person who wins is the one who had an advantage on that day, and that’s ignoring the fact that the whole premise of sport, from a societal perspective, is based on elitism. Elite level athletes are lucky enough to have been born with the right genes and have had the opportunity to train.

Trying to make sport egalitarian is like trying make capitalism produce full equality; they’re mutually exclusive outcomes. Someone wins, someone loses. The problem only arises when a) we kid ourselves that they won ‘fairly’ (and by fairly I mean some externally verifiable moral absolute) and b) we expect people to not do things that are perfectly allowable and which can give you an advantage because it offends of moral sensibilities. Are we really surprised for example, that large companies don’t step forward to volunteer more tax than they legally have to pay? Is not the reason we have ‘rules’ simply because the nuance in morality is so utterly opaque that we wouldn’t be able to function without them?

The only way you solve this problem, is by realising that all elite level sport is pointless if what you want from that is fairness, equality and a sense of hard work is the only thing that prevails. That’s a complete illusion.

Sure, we need rules to stop people using drugs to cheat but that’s only because the use of those drugs is dangerous and we shouldn’t be creating a situation where people are forced to do something that risks their lives in order to remain competitive in their chosen profession (the large number of dead former pro athletes, all of whom seem to have died young and died of heart failure is strongly suggestive of this). Making drug use illegal should have nothing to do with ‘fairness’ since that concept is a myth. If you’re going to suggest that an genetic advantage is a fair advantage then you’re effectively saying that the general correlation we see between intelligence and earnings is also entirely fair.

And what are we going to do when we are finally able (and we are very close now) to alter someone’s DNA in order to give them better performance? Are we really going to make that illegal and claim that by good fortune of birth, those with a genetic advantage should be the only ones allowed to compete? You know they have a word for that – Eugenics – and it didn’t turn out so well in Germany in the 1930s and 40s.

So what was in the package?

Ban competitive sport then? Since you seem to think it’s rather unfair? Or should everyone get a medal?…

Cheating is not sporting.

Ban competitive sport then? Since you seem to think it’s rather unfair? Or should everyone get a medal?…

No need to ban it, we just need to accept accept that it’s not based on any system of fairness or egalitarianism and then get over needing to hold the competitors to unrealistic standards or behaviour. Elite level athletes are no more heroes deserving of our adoration than corporate CEOs.

Cheating is not sporting.

OK sure, but define ‘cheating’ and define ‘sporting’ and then apply those two definitions to the furore that’s currently going on with TUEs.

I’ll let the elite level riders I know what shits they are then. Which will be a surprise to all of them, as they are all really nice chaps/chapesses.

No need to ban it, we just need to accept accept that it’s not based on any system of fairness or egalitarianism and then get over needing to hold the competitors to unrealistic standards or behaviour. Elite level athletes are no more heroes deserving of our adoration than corporate CEOs.

I accepted a long time ago that some are faster than me & I am faster than others. I would hope others feel the same way..

Who one choses to adulate is upto the individual……I’ll be grateful if you’ll let me choose my own heroes without seeking your approval first.

I’ve said before, being younger, lighter, fitter, or faster than me is all wrong. Supplement that with training as well…… that’s where it becomes cheating.

Geetee1972 realised over the weekend he’s not as goo as he thought he was…….

I’ll let the elite level riders I know what shits they are then. Which will be a surprise to all of them, as they are all really nice chaps/chapesses.

Whoa there – I never said they weren’t. I agree with you and I have my own sporting heroes who have inspired me to do things on a bike as an adult that I only dreamed about as a kid. The problem isn’t the competitors, the problem is how we as a society view sporting achievement and the rules of the game.

My ‘rant’ for what it is, is not aimed at the competitors, it’s actually aimed at the furore of the Sky controversy that’s raging now.

It boils down to some people (in the media) thinking that doing things that are perfectly within the rules, but which seem to transcend some ambiguous moral line means that they are wrong. And that argument seems to be based entirely on the notion that there is an absolute fairness that can be achieved and which therefore should be stiven for. And that’s the bit that’s nonsense. Everyone is there by virtue of having an advantage of birth (I’m specifically talking about elite level competition here since everyone else’s acheivements, my own included, never pass by anyone’s radar other than mine and my friends and family).

Geetee1972 realised over the weekend he’s not as goo as he thought he was…….

I reached this conclusion having done a 55 minute 25 and won the scratch, points and 25 trophies in my local club in the same year. Having been tested, I was told my DNA meant my VO2 max was pretty shit, but my approach to training was very good and I was able to make a lot of what little talent I had.

Sorry, is this in reference to something that I’ve missed?

Who are you arguing with here?

Making drug use illegal should have nothing to do with ‘fairness’ since that concept is a myth.

Sorry, this is bollocks.

Sorry, this is bollocks.

OK, so substantiate your argument.

It’s in response to articles in The Observer and Daily Mail about how Sky and in particular David Brailsford, have taken us all for suckers.

Fairness doesn’t mean everyone should have the same ability.

It means nobody should have an advantage gained in contravention of the rules.

This is so simple I’m surprised you have to ask. Are you upset about Sky taking you for a sucker?

Everyone is there by virtue of having an advantage of birth

I have to disagree there..

There are some who’ve made it to the top of their sport with little talent but with great dedication..

Frank Lampard for one, never the most talented footballer but without question one of the most dedicated when it came to making the most of his skill set.

As for Sky, yes the rules are ambiguous & have been bent…but your supposition that all elite level sport is inherently unfair because the only way you get to the top is to have the best genes?….

That’s nonsense I’m afraid. Application will carry you a very long way.

If you use a rule that allows for medical treatment and instead use it for performance enhancement, that to me is cheating.

As a spectator trying to enjoy the sport and a potential customer of the sponsors and a tax payer who pays them – I’m now left feeling I’ve been cheated.

That’s nonsense I’m afraid. Application will carry you a very long way.

I hate to disagree with you but that statement is entirely wrong and it’s empirically demonstrable.

I’m not saying that they don’t work hard, far from it. I’ve worked hard myself, i know what it feels like and I have nothing but admiration for them.

The old saying ‘hard work beats talent if talent doesn’t work hard’ is completely true. But hard work isn’t enough on its own. History is littered with those who almost made it but didn’t; they worked just as hard, if not harder than anyone else but it didn’t make any difference.

I have a VO2 max of 35. A good club level athlete will have on north of 40. There is nothing I can do to change that* much beyond 40 (which I did). There are people testing with VO2 measures of 55-60. They’re the ones who with hard work can make it.

*[edit] without taking something like EPO or maniupulating my DNA

So this is all about Sky, TUEs and the media? It’s a pity nobody thought to start a thread on that previously.

define ‘cheating’ and define ‘sporting’ and then apply those two definitions to the furore that’s currently going on with TUEs.

I get your general point and broadly agree, but this is basically what the whole furore boils down to, isn’t it? There’s a gap between what’s allowed and what’s right and people want to fix that, hence the noise. Sky obeyed the letter of the law, but not the spirit. Moreover Sky painted themselves as whiter than white, i.e. morally perfect rather than just technically perfect, when in fact they were prepared to bend the rules almost to breaking point, which given the huge grey areas in cycling is quite a distance from being morally perfect.

So this whole shouting match is basically an attempt by the sport to address the disparity between the rules and the morality to avoid it happening again. There’s a lot of noise in there because there are a lot of people who just hate Sky and Brailsford in general, but fundamentally it is a discussion that has to happen, and hopefully something good will come from it. The fact that people are up in arms when no actual doping rules have technically been broken, as far as we know so far, shows that the sport has made rather a lot of progress since the bad old days, so that’s something to be happy about.

I think the point that you’re making is that because sport is unfair, we should always expect people to take advantage and bend the rules as far as they can to get an advantage? And I think you’re right. But I don’t think that means that we should accept that the rules as they stand now can’t be improved, and stop tightening them up. The current tantrum is just part of that process, so we just have to accept that some people are going to scream and shout about what Sky have been up to, and some people are going to come out looking bad. It’s not pretty to watch, but in the end it’s mostly good for the sport that this is happening, I think.

It’s inspired by that but it’s a broader point about how society views sport and the contradictions inherent in that. Hence why I started a new thread (I think I started the original Sky TUE thread about nine months ago funnily enough).

Elite level athletes are no more heroes deserving of our adoration than corporate CEOs.

They’re a damn site more entertaining. And elite sport is an entertainment business.

I hate to disagree with you but that statement is entirely wrong and it’s empirically demonstrable

How can it be wrong when I can disprove your theory? I showed you a player who wasn’t the most gifted yet grafted his way to the top.

Your empiric evidence comprises of one example – your own experience. That’s hardly empiric! Admittedly as does mine..

What your argument suggests, if anything, is that actually the truth lies somewhere between the two..

But to suggest that genes & genes alone will get you to the top is glaringly untrue.

(Are you sure your vo2 max is only 35? That’s about the level of someone who doesn’t do much exercise..)

But I don’t think that means that we should accept that the rules as they stand now can’t be improved, and stop tightening them up.

I completely agree. I just don’t think we should be punishing people in the process.

But like I said, this is a broader point about who we view sport in society and the vlaues (and the myths) we create around it.

Professional sport should be banned.

Discuss.

Professional sport is a spectacle, pure entertainment, it has nothing to do with fairness. Riders caught trains in the first editions of the TdF, people have cut the course in marathon majors, teams have sought medical assistance by blurring rules.

Competitive sport only reflects the cheating seen elsewhere in society.

But to suggest that genes & genes alone will get you to the top is glaringly untrue.

OK, one last time, I DO NOT THINK ITS ALL DOWN TO GENES!

You need talent AND you need hard work. But if you’re missing one of those two components, you’re not going to make it to the elite level (and I specifically mean elite level).

And yes, there’s a lot more to it than VO2 max, aerodynamics, watts per kilo, endurance factors etc but all of them come down to your DNA at some point.

It’s inspired by that but it’s a broader point about how society views sport and the contradictions inherent in that. Hence why I started a new thread (I think I started the original Sky TUE thread about nine months ago funnily enough).

Well ok then, in general terms my point still stands, which is that there’s always room for improvement in the rules. There’s always an arms race between the competitors and the people who set the rules, and I suppose that applies to all sports really. And as you said in your original post it also applies to capitalism, which is never completely unfettered – we have competition rules and taxation rules and laws about worker protection and so on and so forth, all there mostly to rein in the worst tendencies of the most competitive to avoid crushing people completely in the system. We have to accept unfairness as a result of human nature, but that doesn’t mean we have to just let go completely, or stop trying to make things less unfair.

Unfairness is a moving target, people come up with new ways to bend the rules, new technologies make thing possible and the rules have to adapt all the time to deal with that. So whilst I think you’re right that we have to accept that unfairness is inherent and we can’t eliminate it completely, I don’t think that means we don’t have a duty to address new unfairness when we spot it. It’s all about where you draw the line as to what’s unfair and what’s just maximising your chance of winning.

American wrestling is the purest form of professional sport then, Swedish Chef

Professional sport The OP should be banned.

Discuss.

@igm:
In so much that it appears to have a sustainable business model, it meets the needs of its fan base, and has removed itself from the original meaning of “amateur” then you could argue that’s clearly its doing something right.

Give me a cobbled farm track or a mud bath of a cross country course any day.

I just don’t think we should be punishing people in the process.

Yeah, I think I mostly agree with you on that, although there is/was definitely a certain amount of hypocrisy on the part of Sky/BC, so it’s not surprising that a lot of people are angry with them. And it’s probably an inevitable part of the process of determining where we’re going to set the bar in future to avoid people bending the rules in similar ways again – unless lots of noise gets made, nothing will change.

The OP should be banned.

Discuss.

Anyone get the feeling this thread is more about the OP’s own disappointments in life than the nominal subject?

Anyone get the feeling this thread is more about the OP’s own disappointments in life than the nominal subject?

No, I thought it was an interesting question so I joined in. Perhaps if you don’t you could stop attacking him, and go and get some work done or something?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sky-tue-saga-is-it-some-sort-of-witch-hunt