Was anyone else expecting XTR to get electronic shifting like Di2 for 2014 – or maybe this is just a ‘mid-release’?

By the way, those rotors are nothing new – Saint has them already, and going from the current one-piece caliper to a two piece design seems like a retrograde step.

Run one of those on my commuter/hybrid. Its not shadow (low profile) and its not plus (clutch), but its a quality mech that’ll run sweet and smooth. Will work with any mega9 (Shimano 9sp) drivetrain components. By the way, the clutches only come on 10sp models, so unless you upgrade to 10sp you won’t be able to benefit from that anyway.

Considering you’ve already got it in a baking tray and on the stove top, not really much point in giving it a name is there…

So, still no consensus on a time to meet then? Should I be surprised, Perth being the capital of laid back Ozziedom :lol:

Oh well, I’ll be at the Camel farm from 8am tomorrow, silver Toyota Corrola, black/white/red Giant Anthem. Hope to meet up with some of you guys…

Oh, one other thing to consider – if your bash is significantly larger diameter than your ‘big’ ring it may foul the FD cage. If so, you’ll need to set the FD a little higher than ideal (or get a smaller bash!)

Yes, the spacing of the rings is the same. The chainline is slightly different (1.3mm) than a true double crank, but there should be enough adjustability in the front mech to accommodate this.

Shouldn’t this be on the ‘man love’ thread?

Balls! Out if interest is that on a full-suss.? The changing chain length through the rear suspension travel was an additional concern I had.

Yes its on an Anthem 29er, so relatively short travel (100mm) but full suspension nonetheless.

I’m gonna be converting my other bike (a Trance with 125mm travel) to 2×10 over the weekend, and I’m going to be using 22/36 on the front plus 11/36 on the rear with a medium cage SLX Shadow + RD. I’ll let you know if that explodes into a milion pieces breaks the chain (edited out of respect for our American friends :oops: ) once I’ve had a chance to try it…

That’s all based on my theory rather than actually trying it so I’m sure some one will come along in a mo and say 38/26 + 11-36 with a medium cage clutch mech is fine!

And here I am … :D

Yep 38/24 with 11/36 and a medium cage XT RD. And I use all my gears!

And as you would expect, it can’t be worth Shimano developing a whole different clutch mechanism for SLX, XT and XTR.

Very true but they do seem to have a habit of removing features or using much cheaper/inferior materials on the cheaper stuff.

Actually, I’m thinking the other way. There seems very little to differentiate between Deore/SLX/XT/XTR these days, just a colour difference here, and a bit of steel versus aluminium versus carbon there. All have (or are getting) the latest technolohgy like servo-wave brakes, shadow plus mechs, hollow axles. And if you go down to the level of parts diagrams you start to find a lot of common bits – the SLX and XT brakes are near identical for example.

Makes sense for Shimano, as design, manufacturing, and stocking must be easier, especially these days when it seems the industry (and us consumers) demand a brand new model every year! However, leaves very few real points of differentiation between the different model lines, as the endless debates on here about whether XT is better than SLX, Saint than Zee, just go to show!

Zee cranks look pretty damn impressive, considering they’re supposed to be full on dh cranks- they’re barely heavier than Saint. Course, no real way to know how they size up strengthwise, they could probably just sell SLX with a Zee sticker on it and say it’s a downhill crank.

Actually, I think you’ll find the Zee cranks are just Deore ones with a Zee sticker on it… :D

And… if you’re wondering how it works, there’s a great BikeRadar tutorial here[/url]

any clutch below xt level is a crappy elastic band system, and not worth it.

its a spring. the elastic gets bandy over time.

I’m sorry, but that’s just not true.

Shimano XT clutch mechanism…

Shimano SLX clutch mechanism…

Identical – and not an bit of elastic or a spring in sight! :lol:

And as you would expect, it can’t be worth Shimano developing a whole different clutch mechanism for SLX, XT and XTR.

So are the crank arms I have just bought (m785) double, the same as the triple, as in could I convert it to triple should I ever want to?

The M780 triple and M785 double are the same in some ways and different in others.

The crank arms themselves are identical. The rings in the middle and inner positions are interchangeable as they are 64 and 104 BCD respectively.

The chainline on the M785 is 48.8mm versus the chainline on the M780 of 50mm, which means the two rings of the M785 are slightly further out (1.3mm) than the equivalent granny and middle ring on an M780. This is for clearance reasons, not to improve the chainline, as the M785 can have up to a 40T chainring in the middle position, versus the M780 only 32T. So, if you then added a big ring to your M785 the chainline would become 51.3mm, and you might have problems using the bottom half of the cassette when in the big ring.

But, that’s irrelevant anyway, because you can’t physically add a big ring to the M785 because the crank spider is different and doesn’t have the cut-outs for fitting a big ring/bash.

So, if you’re likely to be swapping between double and triple, or want to run a bash with your double, then you’re better off getting an M780.

Hey, I’ll meet whatever time works for most people – I only said 8am as that’s what Wildhunter2009 suggested above. And don’t worry about fitness, I was only kidding (kinda) that you did a lap with us then another with your mates :wink:

I’ll check back on here before the weekend, and whatever time has been decided, I’ll be there… :-)

And to address some of the other points made above…

The spacing between the rings on double and triple cranksets is the same, as is the spacing between rings on 9 speed and 10 speed cranksets (despite it being widely reported on forums that 10sp cranksets have closer spacing).

A Shimano front shifter (9 speed or 10 speed) will pull exactly 11mm of cable with the first shift, and 7mm with the second. All the 2×3 converter switch does on the newer shifters is make sure you use the middle to top position instead of the bottom to middle, so that you have the right cable pull (7mm) for the 2x FD. So, if using an older shifter without the mode switch, and a 2x FD, just make sure you’re using the middle to top position to get the right cable pull. The notable exception to this is if you are using a 9 speed 2x FD (like the M665/7), which were designed for a cable pull of 11mm, so you need to use the bottom to middle position on an old shifter, and switch the mode switch off on the recent shifters.

Was this all bull?

Yes…. and no!

The rear chainline (middle of the cassette) on a typical (135mm OLD) mountainbike is 47.5mm. So, for the ideal chainline – middle of cassette lines up with middle of crankset – you’d want the front to be 47.5 also.

However, because of the oversize tubes of MTB pushing the FD outwards, and the need for clearance of the larger chainrings on chainstays, a standard Shimano triple has a chainline of 50mm. So this is further out than ideal, but it doesn’t matter too much as most of us rarely use the big ring anyway. It does mean however, that if you convert a triple into a double by just taking the big ring off, your new chainline (hlf way between the granny and middle) is magically 47.5 – the ideal!

Then you get the double specific cranks. For example Shimano’s M785 XT double has a chainline of 48.8mm. Again, this is a compromise – further out than ideal so that if running the 40T outer ring there’s enough clearance of chainstays. But, its better than a triple, but not quite as good as a triple converted to a double.

Hope that all makes sense… :-)

8am early :lol: – I usually start at 6:30 in the summer to beat the heat.

Anyways, you can do a lap with us at 8 then be nicely warmed up for your mates later :wink:

Yep, looks like there’s a couple of takers on your old thread – here

Yep count me in!

Why don’t we meet outside the café at the Camel Farm 8am?

I’ll be in a silver Toyota Corolla and riding a woefully unsuitable Anthem 29er, but I cracked the frame on my Trance last weekend :(

Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder… if its not real, the rest of us don’t matter, and it’s easy to just walk away… why they’ve just spent seven pages arguing about it?

Anyway, as with most arguments, I suspect the two camps weren’t that far apart at the beginning, but as things have gone on they’ve both taken more extreme and polarised views. So, in the interests in bringing us back to the middle ground, can we try looking at it this way…

There’s some situations where your behaviour matters less – like an anonymous internet forum, or a party full of drunk strangers you’ll never meet again; and there’s other situations that matter more – like at work, or with family or close friends.

Some may choose to conduct themselves differently in these situations accordingly, although personally I’ve learnt (the hard way) that its wise to hold myself to the same standards of behaviour at either :D

But… its still all REAL LIFE in all its rich complexity and diversity…

Perth, wrong topic Chewkw refers to everyone as maggots on quite a regular basis.

I wondered where that had come from – thought Chewkw had done a ninja edit (racist pun intended :wink: ). Anyway, can’t comment on anything he’s said on other threads, but his comments on this thread still ring true with my experience…

I don’t buy that we’ll all be under the thumb of the Chinese either

Now there I actually agree with you, but not for the reasons you gave. My doomsday scenario earlier was just a bit of baiting. Personally, I think the main reason China won’t subjugate the rest of the world even when it has the power to do, is the flip side of its supreme arrogance – it doesn’t think we’re worthy of it!

Look back in history, even when it was the superpower for centuries, it didn’t have any aggressive expansionist ambitions, unlike western dynasties like the Greeks, Romans, Portuguese, Brits, Germans, French, Americans etc. etc. As long as no-one challenges it, China has always shown itself willing to live and let live. Its difficult for us westerners to understand that, as we’ve been taught that aggression and taking whats not yours are natural (even desireable) human traits, but that’s not what Chinese culture teaches.

With which, I’ll have to bow out – its gone midnight here and time for me to sleep as I’ve got to throw my leg over tomorrow (the bike, you sickos :roll: )

I think you use the term “maggots” as a way to dehumanize others and place yourself on a pedestal.

Generally when I’m taking the piss out of human kind it’s because I’m suffering from a massive sense of disappointment with the intellectual ability of my peers, with you I sense something different entirely.

Bwaarp, you may not agree with the way chewkw sees the world, but from my time in China I can tell you that its typical of the perspective of most there.

So, you may as well learn to live with it, because when China is the new superpower, the UK may well become a small colony of it, and chewkw or someone like him could well be the Beijing appointed Governor. And then he’ll be putting up signs in Hyde Park saying “No Brits or Dogs allowed”, just like the British Governor put up in Hong Kong saying “No Chinese or Dogs Allowed” a hundred years ago.

Finally, for a Brit to say to someone Chinese that they

dehumanize others and place yourself on a pedestal

is supremely ironic, and shows an amazing naiveté about the history of interaction between the two countries :lol:

Bwaarp, having lived in China for twenty years, everything chewkw says makes sense. It is a very different culture, and if you don’t understand it, don’t make the arrogant 19th century westerners mistake of just bad mouthing it!

Thanks for your response chewkw, that goes a long way to explaining why I was never a successful barbarian overlord in my time in China – even the most mundane office politics is more complex than the Machiavellian conniving of an episode of Yes Minister! I wish I’d taken your wise counsel twenty years ago.

Instead, I took the Samurai way out… (and yes, I know the Chinese consider the Japanese a bunch of jumped up fishermen and rice farmers :D )

Yes, of course Mogrim, they do…

Yup. And I’d say the majority of people from a given country will also believe their food and weather are the best, too.

Sorry mogrim, I was actually genuinely agreeing with you, not being sarcastic, though I see how it may have looked otherwise…

The first part is pretty much common to every country I’ve lived in – US Americans think they’re the best, so do the British*, the Spanish, Egyptians…

:lol: Yes, of course Mogrim, they do…

However, with what I now know about Chinese culture and history (which I have to admit is still barely scratching the surface) I’d have to grudgingly admit that the Chinese are probably the ones who are right 8O

If you are Chinese then you are Chinese regardless of where you are. You consider yourself Chinese first then the nationality second.

Categories of Chinese:
1. Chinese Chinese (From father or mother land China),
2. Oversea Chinese (anyone born or live outside of China or the descendant of Chinese outside of China)
3. Chinese enemy vice versa (China/PRC vs Taiwan/ROC)

Chinese may not like other Chinese but they tend to look down on other races because they lack Confucius teaching i.e. respect and know your place in an orderly society.

chewkw, I’d be interested to hear your views on something I witnessed many times in Asia. Chinese in your category 1. above ie native born, seemed to feel a strong resentment towards those in category 2 ie overseas born Chinese.

This was particularly obvious when a naive western company would transfer an arrogant young Chinese-American MBA graduate to their mainland Chinese office in the belief that as he looked Chinese he’d know how to get on with ‘them’. The mainland Chinese would without fail turn on this poor guy and make his life hell, much more so than the western staff, who they grudgingly accepted.

I’ve always put this down to jealousy, or feelings that a ‘banana’ as they called them (yellow on the outside but white on the inside) is somehow a traitor to their race. But I’d be interested to hear your take on it?

Having lived in Asia (not the Orient :D ) for most of my adult life, it always raises a wry smile when I see a lot of handwringing angst from westerners about racist language.

Why, because in my experience the Asians themselves don’t see treating people differently purely based on race as being that strange. In fact, I’d have to say that the Chinese in particular are the most racist people I’ve ever met. Let me qualify that – its not in a loutish ignorant abusive way like a football fan calling a black player names, but in a more pervasive and institutionalised way. Which is actually more worrying. For example, my identity card contained a numerical code of my racial origins, and my citizenship rights were different accordingly, and would never change no matter how long I lived there – I was different to them, and always would be! This is something that would never be tolerated in the west, where we don’t even have to answer questions on race in an official census if we don’t want to.

But perhaps even more sinister, there is a deep seated cultural belief amongst the Chinese that they are simply superior to the rest of us, and they believe it is only a matter of time that this is universally recognised. Now, ignorant name calling I can brush off, but a latent superiority complex is scary, especially considering that China is entirely likely to be the next world superpower.

By the way, they’re not above ignorant name calling either – in Hong Kong westerners are casually referred to as Gweilo, which roughly translates as foreign devil ghost, and my Chinese secretary used to cheerily greet me each morning at work by calling me a round eyed pig, which is the Chinese equivalent of us calling them slitty eyed – Prince Philip would have been in his element!

At least most of this was done in good humour though, whilst they reserved their worst verbal insults and outright prejudiced behaviour for south Asians and Africans – and that’s what has got a lot of them worried about the rise of Chinese economic power and nationalism.

Anyway, before I get too carried away on my soapbox, the purpose of all this is not to justify racism, but just that I wouldn’t get too upset whether you call someone Asian or Oriental, because they’ll be sure to be calling you something much worse under their breath :?

Wobbliscott, I think it was better when you just posted the photo and left us all guessing at what fundamental truth you’d stumbled across.

That way we could all draw our own conclusions what you meant, willingly supported by our pre-conceptions. Now you’ve explained it, it’ll just degenerate into another 26 vs 29 slanging match… :D

Shimano SLX or XT, depending on how important weight bling is for you.

FTFY :wink:

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – the answer to any tubeless problem is… UST!

Can’t understand why, in this day and age, people would muck about with rim strips, compressors, burping, sealing tyre walls with sticky liquid, when there’s a simple and reliable system designed from the bottom up specifically to avoid all those hassles :roll:

Luddites the lot of ya :wink:

Now that’s real mountainbiking – makes where I ride seem like a putting green in comparison!

Nice photos…

Might have to show them to my eight year old daughter. She’s still impressed from when I showed her Danny MacAskills’ ‘Way Back Home’ and said that’s what Daddy does at the weekends :wink: Oh she’s gonna be soooo disappointed in me when she’s older…

I’ve got SLX on one bike and XT on t’other.

The basic components are the same, just painted a different colour. The only functional differences are:-

1. XT gets free-stroke adjustment, but as others have said, this does bu@@er all anyway, and some clever chaps over on MTBR have worked out how to ‘hack’ the SLX and give it free-stroke if you’re that bothered – here

2. XT gets a slightly shorter and lighter lever blade, if one-finger braking is your thang.

3. XT caliper gets a screw-in pin to hold the pads in versus a split pin on the SLX. But the screw thread for the pin is still there on the SLX so you can just buy the pins and fit yourself.

4. SLX rotors are not Ice-tech, ie. they don’t have the heat-sink sandwich construction of the XT ones. But again, I just bought the XT ones anyways.

Pads are all interchangeable between latest generation XTR/XT/SLX, so its your choice whether you use finned or not, resin or sintered.

So, in the end it just comes down to a slight price difference, and which initials match the rest of the components on your bike…

A short history of identifying yourself in communications…

Cavemen did it…

Pre-industrial societies did it…

Your parents did it…

We all used to do it…

So why shouldn’t Rachel be able to do it here? :roll:

+1 for The Mission, and I’ll raise you Cinema Paradiso.

In fact, anything by Ennio Morricone really…

Probably some poor misguided vestige of a bygone era when people used to attach their real name to communications to show sincerity and that they were willing to stand by what they said.

Me, I’m with the OP and prefer to just abuse people safe in the anonymity of an assumed moniker :wink:

Meeting a couple of mates there who are NOTORIOUSLY late for everything.

Welcome to WA – stands for Wait Awhile…

Ok, 20th sounds like a plan…

So, who else is in for the inagural STW Perth pootle – farm-boy, aphex?

Hi Rich. Thinking I didn’t have any takers for Sunday, I’ve since committed to a 7am ride with my usual crowd. Will be back at the Camel Farm by 10am though, so if you want to meet then for a ride? Cafe doesn’t open till 9am anyway, so if you’ll be leaving the family to fend for themselves then a later start might be better.

Let me know if that’s of interest, or we can do another time – I ride every Sunday, and some Saturdays too… Maybe we should try for the 20th if that’s when aphex is next available?

I’ve always run quicklinks on my Shimano chains. Used the SRAM ones on my 9 speed chains, and KMC on my 10 speed ones.

I’ve not had a problem getting the 10 speed ones on, but have found them a little tighter to get off than the 9sp ones, so I’ve invested in a pair the special pliers.